GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #2

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  • #401
It's one thing to keep an engagement quiet for the first few weeks or months but for it to still be hush hush three years later suggests something strange and sinister. My interpretation is that IS pressured Helen not to talk about it - even to his two sons - because for him it was all a big headache and an event that was NEVER going to happen. Poor, unsuspecting Helen, emailing a girlfriend about wedding arrangements only moments before her life was taken by the man who had promised to love her forever. Sickening!
 
  • #402
It's one thing to keep an engagement quiet for the first few weeks or months but for it to still be hush hush three years later suggests something strange and sinister. My interpretation is that IS pressured Helen not to talk about it - even to his two sons - because for him it was all a big headache and an event that was NEVER going to happen. Poor, unsuspecting Helen, emailing a girlfriend about wedding arrangements only moments before her life was taken by the man who had promised to love her forever. Sickening!

I know a couple of people have mentioned this issue of keeping the wedding quiet.

For what I have read of Helen's writing it seems the response to her beginning to date again wasn't overly positive. People were judgemental and rude and as such I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted the wedding kept quiet.

Not sure why she wanted to keep it SO quiet...IS's sons didn't know but that was between he and Helen.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
  • #403
So the obvious problem for the defence based on the state evidence is how could Helen have left a note if she was dumped in the Cess pit.

The defence will ask us to believe that she left this note, and then was dumped in the cess pit by mysterious intruders

And somehow also she was taking these drugs
 
  • #404
Maybe the defence will admit that the note didn't exist but will say that IS was being blackmailed to pretend there was one?
 
  • #405
The note is fatal.
 
  • #406
I do wonder was there an argument about the paperwork IS brought to the solicitor that day and IS may have been pressurising and gaslighting Helen to sell that property.

RE Helen driving that morning, has anyone considered IS was actually the one driving the jeep manically (just after Helen died so would be highly panicked) and made up Helen driving it to cover anything caught on cctv/speed camera. Was there any proof she did actually go to the shop that morning?
 
  • #407
From today's evidence

Wedding plans were kept 'low key'
Stewart is asked if the upcoming wedding caused any disagreements between him and Helen.
He said no, because it was kept fairly low key.
“Because when I asked Helen to marry me which was three and a half years ago, she didn’t want to tell anyone.
“She didn’t want to go through another engagement thing, she just wanted another wedding.
“I asked her marry me about a year after she lost her husband.”





So IS says it was 3.5 years ago, which would be October / November 2012 or thereabouts. ( based on this interview being done early May 2016 )
He also says it was a year after Helen's husband died.

Helen's husband died February 2011, so it is actually 20/21 months later when IS asks, closer to two years.

I can understand the comment re Helen not wanting an official engagement as such, not wanting to announce anything when it was not yet 2 years since JS died..

But fast forward to April 2016 - 5 years after the death of JS, 6 years since ISs wife died.
And, at this point, despite the fact that the wedding date has now been agreed and venues sought, they still have not told anyone other than Helen's brother, one friend of Helen ( a few days before Helen died ) and IS states that his parents also knew.

That surely indicates a problem. Not to tell ISs sons who lived with them, not to ask other friends and family to save the date.
They could not still be concerned about adverse comments, at this stage - so I wonder who was wanting the secrecy maintained.
 
  • #408
Apologies if I'm commenting in the wrong place, I'm still getting the hang of this! Just want to say Hi and thank everyone for such an interesting and illuminating ongoing discussion. As others before me have said, I am glad to have found an outlet for my emotions, opinions and questions on this very distressing case. I did not know Helen but felt I did through her wonderfully clever, funny and direct writing. She communicated with such truth and was clearly a class act in all kinds of ways, both professionally and personally. It must have been quite something to have known her as a friend. For her to have met such an appalling and premature death, along with that beautiful little dog Boris who she loved so much, makes me feel pure rage!

I suppose I should declare an interest here - I'm a writer of a similar age to Helen and though not widowed, found myself unexpectedly single late in life. This thread is not about me but I'd like to share some observations that I hope others will find interesting. Like Helen, I relied on my gorgeous little dog for comfort and company as I contemplated a scary future as a single woman, a few decades past the first flush of youth. It is a daunting prospect for many of us and sadly this goes some way to explain why so many women 'settle' for men who really aren't worthy of them.

I think it's pretty clear to any reasonable person that Helen and IS were not an obvious match. Her intellect, achievements, eligibility, wealth (of course) and general appeal were far above his. He should have been a fling at best - her 'transitional man', ie the one who moves you on mentally from your lost love and prepares you to meet the next one. IS was not marriage material - so why did Helen (and why do so many other women) settle?

As Helen's brother has stated, Helen was hugely unlucky to have fallen for a dangerous psychopath and her fate at his hands was so mind bogglingly horrific, she could never have predicted it. Had she even known he was capable of harming her beloved Boris, she'd have shown him the door. It is heartbreakingly ironic that her blog was full of safety warnings for widows hitting the internet dating scene. It's too late for Helen and Boris but I hope other women who find themselves in a similar situation to Helen's in mid-life can learn some lessons from her tragedy.

I married a sociopath and I now see (with that wonderful thing called hindsight) that there were umpteen clues he did not love me and had only pursued me for my high salary and comfortable lifestyle. I willfully ignored/dismissed every clue about his real feelings for me. I now puzzle over why I clung to this denial for so long and went ahead and married a cold, self-serving man I knew in my heart did not love me. My blood ran cold when I read the little digs IS repeatedly made about Helen, how you would find her books in charity shops for example, describing her as menopausal and constantly emphasising her anxiety (anxiety he had no doubt contributed to with his constant, subtle undermining of her). This was my ex husband's modus operandi too. He was happy for me to bankroll our lifestyle, pay for flash cars and 5* holidays yet he was dismissive of my work, mocked me at every opportunity and would never acknowledge that my talents and toil had paid for these things. I became jumpy, anxious and introverted - a shadow of the happy, outgoing, fun woman I was when I met him. I believed I was at fault, that he was right to point out my inadequacies. I now totally understand how older women can override their own feminine intuition in romantic matters and see a relationship as they want it to be and not as it really is. I suspect this is a very common scenario and many unhappy, late life marriages result. In most cases, they do not end in murder.

I hope, armed with this self-knowledge, I would not allow myself to be duped by such a man again. I only wish Helen had been given the same opportunity to learn this lesson but the sociopath she fell for took her life. Not content to share the luxury lifestyle she so generously offered him (and his grown up sons), he believed he deserved to have it all to himself and killed her to get it. What happened to Helen is the most unlikely and extreme life 'plot twist' imaginable. Her death, along with her beloved dog, at the hands of a man who professed to love her, reminds us starkly there are far worse things than being a middle aged single woman.

I hope you'll forgive me for throwing these very personal thoughts into the mix. I have been so impressed with the high standard of the debate here on Web Sleuths and the polite, respectful camaraderie between contributors. God bless.
 
  • #409
I do wonder was there an argument about the paperwork IS brought to the solicitor that day and IS may have been pressurising and gaslighting Helen to sell that property.

RE Helen driving that morning, has anyone considered IS was actually the one driving the jeep manically (just after Helen died so would be highly panicked) and made up Helen driving it to cover anything caught on cctv/speed camera. Was there any proof she did actually go to the shop that morning?


The timings from the evidence.

Helen is on line
8.16 am to 9.04 am
9.10 am to 9.30 am
9.48 am to 10.20 or 10.30 am - this is taken from the evidence of Stuart Kye who says they chatted back and forth for some 30 to 40 minutes from 9.48 am.
The last known communication, on line, with her good friend Tracey is 10.51am and Tracey says they were chatting re the wedding, venues, and dresses ...so we have to allow that this chat began sometime between 10.20 at the earliest and say 10.40 at the latest.
10.58 is last confirmed time that Helen is on line

That is a very close timeline to fit in a trip out in the Jeep. Even if, as IS says, Helen went out and came back * almost immediately*.
The best gap would be between 9.30 and 9.48 ........or between 10.20 and 10.40

However, it does not add up ( for me ) because if Helen did nip out during one of those two slots ( and I dont see any other gap ) then we are expected to believe that she came back, hugely upset, never going to drive again, ever etc...and yet moments later she is back on line chatting away to either Stuart Kye or to Tracey, seemingly quite happy and excited.
 
  • #410
RE Helen driving that morning, has anyone considered IS was actually the one driving the jeep manically (just after Helen died so would be highly panicked) and made up Helen driving it to cover anything caught on cctv/speed camera. Was there any proof she did actually go to the shop that morning?

No, there isn't. I do think it's quite possible that the incident happened, but at some other time, and he has just made use of it to explain why her car was still there. Helen did mention somewhere that she had some problems with driving.
 
  • #411
I'm sure I read that IS said that his parents found out about the wedding from some interviews Helen did around her book launch.
 
  • #412
Don't you think its pretty evil to secretly drug your partner for months, play with her mind then murder her and dump her in a cess pit with her dog?

Normal men don't do that stuff.

Even bad men don't do that stuff.
What is Evil? What is the definition of Evil? What is YOUR definition of evil?

I don't yet know what he did or how he did it or why he did it or strictly speaking even IF he did it as he's not yet been found guilty (though yes yes, I know it's a sure thing bar a miracle that he IS guilty) so I can't really say whether I feel he fits what might constitute my version of Evil but, based on just what we know ... i've known worse.
 
  • #413
Apologies if I'm commenting in the wrong place, I'm still getting the hang of this! Just want to say Hi and thank everyone for such an interesting and illuminating ongoing discussion. As others before me have said, I am glad to have found an outlet for my emotions, opinions and questions on this very distressing case. I did not know Helen but felt I did through her wonderfully clever, funny and direct writing. She communicated with such truth and was clearly a class act in all kinds of ways, both professionally and personally. It must have been quite something to have known her as a friend. For her to have met such an appalling and premature death, along with that beautiful little dog Boris who she loved so much, makes me feel pure rage!

I suppose I should declare an interest here - I'm a writer of a similar age to Helen and though not widowed, found myself unexpectedly single late in life. This thread is not about me but I'd like to share some observations that I hope others will find interesting. Like Helen, I relied on my gorgeous little dog for comfort and company as I contemplated a scary future as a single woman, a few decades past the first flush of youth. It is a daunting prospect for many of us and sadly this goes some way to explain why so many women 'settle' for men who really aren't worthy of them.

I think it's pretty clear to any reasonable person that Helen and IS were not an obvious match. Her intellect, achievements, eligibility, wealth (of course) and general appeal were far above his. He should have been a fling at best - her 'transitional man', ie the one who moves you on mentally from your lost love and prepares you to meet the next one. IS was not marriage material - so why did Helen (and why do so many other women) settle?

As Helen's brother has stated, Helen was hugely unlucky to have fallen for a dangerous psychopath and her fate at his hands was so mind bogglingly horrific, she could never have predicted it. Had she even known he was capable of harming her beloved Boris, she'd have shown him the door. It is heartbreakingly ironic that her blog was full of safety warnings for widows hitting the internet dating scene. It's too late for Helen and Boris but I hope other women who find themselves in a similar situation to Helen's in mid-life can learn some lessons from her tragedy.

I married a sociopath and I now see (with that wonderful thing called hindsight) that there were umpteen clues he did not love me and had only pursued me for my high salary and comfortable lifestyle. I willfully ignored/dismissed every clue about his real feelings for me. I now puzzle over why I clung to this denial for so long and went ahead and married a cold, self-serving man I knew in my heart did not love me. My blood ran cold when I read the little digs IS repeatedly made about Helen, how you would find her books in charity shops for example, describing her as menopausal and constantly emphasising her anxiety (anxiety he had no doubt contributed to with his constant, subtle undermining of her). This was my ex husband's modus operandi too. He was happy for me to bankroll our lifestyle, pay for flash cars and 5* holidays yet he was dismissive of my work, mocked me at every opportunity and would never acknowledge that my talents and toil had paid for these things. I became jumpy, anxious and introverted - a shadow of the happy, outgoing, fun woman I was when I met him. I believed I was at fault, that he was right to point out my inadequacies. I now totally understand how older women can override their own feminine intuition in romantic matters and see a relationship as they want it to be and not as it really is. I suspect this is a very common scenario and many unhappy, late life marriages result. In most cases, they do not end in murder.

I hope, armed with this self-knowledge, I would not allow myself to be duped by such a man again. I only wish Helen had been given the same opportunity to learn this lesson but the sociopath she fell for took her life. Not content to share the luxury lifestyle she so generously offered him (and his grown up sons), he believed he deserved to have it all to himself and killed her to get it. What happened to Helen is the most unlikely and extreme life 'plot twist' imaginable. Her death, along with her beloved dog, at the hands of a man who professed to love her, reminds us starkly there are far worse things than being a middle aged single woman.

I hope you'll forgive me for throwing these very personal thoughts into the mix. I have been so impressed with the high standard of the debate here on Web Sleuths and the polite, respectful camaraderie between contributors. God bless.


Thank you for such an insightful post Dolly. It is so true that we often see what we want to see, don't like to accept we may have made an error of judgement and brush away those niggling intuitive thoughts as being irrelevant.
I am very pleased to know you came through the other side, wiser and safer.
 
  • #414
I'm sure I read that IS said that his parents found out about the wedding from some interviews Helen did around her book launch.


Yes, I remember that bit now ....... IS's remark about, well they knew we were engaged but they didnt know we were getting married.
I said that I presumed he meant the parents didnt know exactly when they were getting married, as I would think that if you know a couple are engaged, then you do know that at some point they will get married.
 
  • #415
Apologies if I'm commenting in the wrong place, I'm still getting the hang of this! Just want to say Hi and thank everyone for such an interesting and illuminating ongoing discussion. As others before me have said, I am glad to have found an outlet for my emotions, opinions and questions on this very distressing case. I did not know Helen but felt I did through her wonderfully clever, funny and direct writing. She communicated with such truth and was clearly a class act in all kinds of ways, both professionally and personally. It must have been quite something to have known her as a friend. For her to have met such an appalling and premature death, along with that beautiful little dog Boris who she loved so much, makes me feel pure rage!

I suppose I should declare an interest here - I'm a writer of a similar age to Helen and though not widowed, found myself unexpectedly single late in life. This thread is not about me but I'd like to share some observations that I hope others will find interesting. Like Helen, I relied on my gorgeous little dog for comfort and company as I contemplated a scary future as a single woman, a few decades past the first flush of youth. It is a daunting prospect for many of us and sadly this goes some way to explain why so many women 'settle' for men who really aren't worthy of them.

I think it's pretty clear to any reasonable person that Helen and IS were not an obvious match. Her intellect, achievements, eligibility, wealth (of course) and general appeal were far above his. He should have been a fling at best - her 'transitional man', ie the one who moves you on mentally from your lost love and prepares you to meet the next one. IS was not marriage material - so why did Helen (and why do so many other women) settle?

As Helen's brother has stated, Helen was hugely unlucky to have fallen for a dangerous psychopath and her fate at his hands was so mind bogglingly horrific, she could never have predicted it. Had she even known he was capable of harming her beloved Boris, she'd have shown him the door. It is heartbreakingly ironic that her blog was full of safety warnings for widows hitting the internet dating scene. It's too late for Helen and Boris but I hope other women who find themselves in a similar situation to Helen's in mid-life can learn some lessons from her tragedy.

I married a sociopath and I now see (with that wonderful thing called hindsight) that there were umpteen clues he did not love me and had only pursued me for my high salary and comfortable lifestyle. I willfully ignored/dismissed every clue about his real feelings for me. I now puzzle over why I clung to this denial for so long and went ahead and married a cold, self-serving man I knew in my heart did not love me. My blood ran cold when I read the little digs IS repeatedly made about Helen, how you would find her books in charity shops for example, describing her as menopausal and constantly emphasising her anxiety (anxiety he had no doubt contributed to with his constant, subtle undermining of her). This was my ex husband's modus operandi too. He was happy for me to bankroll our lifestyle, pay for flash cars and 5* holidays yet he was dismissive of my work, mocked me at every opportunity and would never acknowledge that my talents and toil had paid for these things. I became jumpy, anxious and introverted - a shadow of the happy, outgoing, fun woman I was when I met him. I believed I was at fault, that he was right to point out my inadequacies. I now totally understand how older women can override their own feminine intuition in romantic matters and see a relationship as they want it to be and not as it really is. I suspect this is a very common scenario and many unhappy, late life marriages result. In most cases, they do not end in murder.

I hope, armed with this self-knowledge, I would not allow myself to be duped by such a man again. I only wish Helen had been given the same opportunity to learn this lesson but the sociopath she fell for took her life. Not content to share the luxury lifestyle she so generously offered him (and his grown up sons), he believed he deserved to have it all to himself and killed her to get it. What happened to Helen is the most unlikely and extreme life 'plot twist' imaginable. Her death, along with her beloved dog, at the hands of a man who professed to love her, reminds us starkly there are far worse things than being a middle aged single woman.

I hope you'll forgive me for throwing these very personal thoughts into the mix. I have been so impressed with the high standard of the debate here on Web Sleuths and the polite, respectful camaraderie between contributors. God bless.

Thank you for this Dolly, no wonder this case has cut deep for you. I'm new here and also very impressed by the reasonable and thought out discussion.

Just a question wrt to Helen's brother, I've seen very little from him and what I've seen has been very neutral. In what context did he make the comments about IS?
 
  • #416
No, there isn't. I do think it's quite possible that the incident happened, but at some other time, and he has just made use of it to explain why her car was still there. Helen did mention somewhere that she had some problems with driving.

Never thought of that, of course he'd need to explain why she didn't take her brand new jeep.
 
  • #417
Stewart said he and Helen watched football on TV and Helen made cottage pie on the Sunday.

“That was one of Helen’s specialities. [. ... ]"

Another "past tense" reference to a supposedly still missing person . . . .
 
  • #418
Is it just me who thinks the questioning by the prosecution has been very gentle and not at all probing? Just one simple example is when Helen`s mother said that she felt uneasy about the relationship but wasn`t asked why. All witnesses seem to be heard very quickly, then on to the next one. Do you think this is because they are waiting until IS takes the stand? Except what if he doesn`t?
I just feel that many answers given could have been probed and expanded on, emphasising discrepancies etc
 
  • #419
Stewart said he and Helen watched football on TV and Helen made cottage pie on the Sunday.

“That was one of Helen’s specialities. [. ... ]"

Another "past tense" reference to a supposedly still missing person . . . .

So true SiSi and so many examples of this given by other posters too. If you imagine yourself talking about someone who genuinely has been missing for a few days, you would definitely not keep talking about them in the past tense. In my own experience, when someone you are close to you has died, you still refer to them in the present tense until it sinks in.
 
  • #420
Is it just me who thinks the questioning by the prosecution has been very gentle and not at all probing? Just one simple example is when Helen`s mother said that she felt uneasy about the relationship but wasn`t asked why. All witnesses seem to be heard very quickly, then on to the next one. Do you think this is because they are waiting until IS takes the stand? Except what if he doesn`t?
I just feel that many answers given could have been probed and expanded on, emphasising discrepancies etc

I'm disappointed to read this, Michelle, because haven't you been in court on several days?
Reliant as we are on live reports and tweets, which are of necessity condensed, I'm always aware that we're not necessarily getting a complete account. I'd particularly like to know if the police witness explained why they weren't able to lift that hatch straight away.
 
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