GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #3

[Cherwell]

So you were there that day Michelle - thanks for this post - was wondering why he was so vague in his testimony on this crucial matter.
So the existence of N&J was of low priority in Dec 2016 - anyone would think that IS's team & family would now have sprung into action, working with P.I.s to track down the real suspects Nick & Joe and thereby prove that Dad was innocent and had been much maligned.........

IS did say one of them had been "dealt with" already
Would be very interesting to know more about that

 

[ColourPurple]

I am still baffled as to why he chose that particular day and, crucially, why he made no attempt to fake an accident or suicide. Dumping her - and Boris - in a cesspit in the family home made it an obvious case of foul play, with him the most likely/only suspect. That's why I honestly don't think he is terribly bright!

I have to say I'm not convinced thoughts of his sons' future inheritance were a big driving factor in the murder - in my view, IS thinks of no one but himself and his own greedy desires. He certainly never gave a thought to the shame he would bring on his son's with this vile, premeditated murder - psychopaths generally are not known for their concern or empathy for others.

I think he truly believed he'd found the perfect hiding spot and that nobody would ever even think to look there. Re the sons, rather than IS thinking of them it may have been that one of the sons made an innocent remark after he came out of intensive care, like "Thank God you're Ok, we were so worried we were going to lose you and lose our home..." and that combined with the thought of being within touching distance of Helen's fortune spurred him on. Also as we've discussed before it could be that Helen caught him in the act, maybe accessing her bank account, or spiking her tea, or forging her signature on legal papers.

 

[ColourPurple]

Listening to O giving evidence was painful. When asked for more detail/more depth to the "Nick/Joe story (i.e. the conversations that IS and O had about this "crucially important situation" in prison during his weekly visits), poor O kind of stumbled and didn`t seem to know what to say. He then answered by saying that that was all they had discussed because "time was limited to an hour each visit and they had other things to talk about".

Did they ask O what he did after being told the Nick & Joe story? Did he report it to the police or search for proof they existed or take extra security precautions at home?

 

[Cherwell]

Interesting points, Tortoise.

I expect in the early evening OS did probably assume Helen was out walking the dog. Of course I don't know her habits, or even what the weather was like that day, but personally I've often been out walking with dogs for well over an hour. Some small dogs have tremendous stamina.

"By a year old you should be giving your dog a 30-40 minute walk a day. Once adult, your Dachsie will take any amount of exercise you care to give."
https://dachshundbreedcouncil.wordpress.com/owning-a-dachshund/exercise-and-training/

I think possibly there were conversations about where Helen was on the Monday. And IS gave a different story because he hadn't thought about the story of the note yet, like 'she's out walking the dog' or 'I don't know where she's gone', or 'she's gone to bed because she's been having sleep problems recently'. I think they might be protecting their dad by saying there was no conversation about Helen on Monday, and that he implied to them (on Tuesday) that Helen had left (and left a note) on the Tuesday. I think IS had a story of Helen vanishing while out with Boris, but then changed that to Broadstairs because he suddenly got very nervous that police would concentrate on the house. It's perhaps one thing planning on using the perfect place to hide a body and quite another, after you've done it, and start to get paranoid about being caught.

Another piece of evidence that supports his change of story is him telling the solicitor that Helen was unwell. He could very easily have said she's gone away for a short break.

IS might possibly have "confided" to his sons that Helen and he had had a minor disagreement and she had gone out in a huff. ("It was something of nothing, she'll be back when she's calmed down.")
We have been told that she had had altercations with OS before, so perhaps this wasn't unusual anyway.
Of course this would fit in well with the note story which he later developed.

 

[cottonweaver]

IS did say one of them had been "dealt with" already
Would be very interesting to know more about that

Hmmm. "Dealt with ." yet all this was a low priority for discussion, apparently ( Michelle's post) .
Poor innocent Ian, locked up 6 months for a crime he hasn't committed yet Ian now volunteers that he's implicated in a separate violent crime. Oh well , never mind, we've got more important things to discuss.



If you'd heard that phrase "Dealt with " what would spring to mind? That Nick or Joe had been assaulted, bumped off- some kind of violent retribution? And so, at whose behest?

If I'd heard that I would also be concerned that IS was implicated in a violent crime of some type, against N or J. Gosh, I would already have my hands full trying to support IS to prove his innocence of one murder - Hb's.

A manipulator like IS will doubtless have manipulated his own sons, of course they are victims too but my credulity at some of this trial evidence was already hanging by a fine thread ...............

 

[Cherwell]

Did they ask O what he did after being told the Nick & Joe story? Did he report it to the police or search for proof they existed or take extra security precautions at home?

And if not, why not ? !:fishy:

 

[cottonweaver]

And if not, why not ? !:fishy:

As Michelle was a trial ,maybe she will pop back in and see these questions?


ETA - I meant, just supply extra details from the testimony we've been talking about . ( My ambiguous post made it sound like I was asking M to solve the whole thing. )

 

[ColourPurple]

Hmmm. "Dealt with ." yet all this was a low priority for discussion, apparently ( Michelle's post) .
Poor innocent Ian, locked up 6 months for a crime he hasn't committed yet Ian now volunteers that he's implicated in a separate violent crime. Oh well , never mind, we've got more important things to discuss.



If you'd heard that phrase "Dealt with " what would spring to mind? That Nick or Joe had been assaulted, bumped off- some kind of violent retribution? And so, at whose behest?..

I'd think either bumped off or paid off but I'd be asking IS for all the details.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if the 'trousers' are the ones he was wearing at the tip. I expect it's hard to tell, CCTV is usually in black and white isn't it?

 

[Tortoise]

Of course we haven't been told yet the significance of the blue shirt. Could someone have seen him wearing a blue shirt where he denies being?

 

[cottonweaver]

Something new has emerged from some chats I've been having with Alyce.

If you look at both sons' evidence, they say they were told by IS on Tuesday evening, that Helen had left a note and gone to Broadstairs. Neither of them say anything about him telling them Helen had (physically) left on Monday.

I think that's quite significant and it points to him inventing the note and the Broadstairs scenario on Tuesday.

snipped ( just to focus on BIB from your plausible interpretation as to what may be missing from the evidence re Mon night.)

So that ( inventing the note later on ) would imply there was less pre- med planning than we might've assumed.

 

[Squamous]

Of course we haven't been told yet the significance of the blue shirt. Could someone have seen him wearing a blue shirt where he denies being?

I'm intrigued by the shirt significance too! Though I don't think the case can stand or fall on the nurse's recollection of the colour of shirt he was wearing at an appointment nine months ago.

 

[jessie]

You couldn't suffocate a dog in a pillowcase... My dog sleeps under my duvet and has no problem breathing even if his nose is pushed up against the duvet. And if you tried to suffocate a dog in a bin-bag they would just bite through the bag.

I think he may have drowned Boris. In a pillowcase possibly, and either a bath or swimming pool.
I don't think the p.m. exam by the vet would have shown this after so long in the cess pit.

 

[michelle230]

As Michelle was a trial ,maybe she will pop back in and see these questions?


ETA - I meant, just supply extra details from the testimony we've been talking about . ( My ambiguous post made it sound like I was asking M to solve the whole thing. )

Ahh...if only I could!!

This is what I meant when I said in a couple of posts that I didn`t understand why the prosecutor`s questioning had been so basic and gentle. The obvious further delving into the Joe/Nick story is one example - all the points raised above and more - and also another example is Helen`s apparent incident with her car that made her come home and say she wasn`t going to drive again! That was never asked to be expanded upon.
I can only think that this is a most delicate situation and had to be handled with great sensitivity. Bear in mind that as someone has already said, if IS does not take the stand then the evidence of Nick/Joe is worthless anyway. If IS does take the stand, I assume his fable will be torn to shreds quicker than a paper bag.
I understand the "thinking outside the box" regarding J and O. All I can confirm is what the previous poster said regarding the warmth between J and O and Helen`s brother and partner (and support). This was my strong observation too. Most definitely.
Hopefully none of us have ever been faced with such a terrible dilemma (J and O dilemma). What I personally have learnt, through an experience with a friend`s previous con artist boyfriend (who also ended up in prison),...I had known this guy for two years as my friend`s b/f and saw him often. When the truth came to light, the time it took for me to absorb the fact that he wasn`t what I thought, and that he was actually this awful other person...it took a long, long time for my emotions and thoughts to shift and to think of him as the person he really was, rather than the person he presented as. It was a long, emotional process as what we know factually takes much longer to internalise emotionally.
Can you imagine therefore how it is for J and O?

 

[Tortoise]

snipped ( just to focus on BIB from your plausible interpretation as to what may be missing from the evidence re Mon night.)

So that ( inventing the note later on ) would imply there was less pre- med planning than we might've assumed.

Less, certainly, but I think he had always planned on using the cesspit and it being a mystery disappearance. I just think the location of the disappearance was what he wanted to change, but even that didn't wash with police because they still kept searching the house! I think they suspected very early on but had no physical evidence. The call to 101 itself would have had alarm bells ringing with him expressing no worry, and reporting it because others were worried. That's where he played it wrong IMO, because he wanted to give the impression he believed she was choosing to be absent but at the same time others knew it was out of character. The man who lived with her had not predicted this was so out of character.

If he had planned on using Broadstairs it always bothered me that he hadn't been down there and planted some evidence to make it look like she'd arrived and then vanished. But with it being a last minute version that explains it. Also, if she had vanished on the Monday, while out with Boris, it would not be believable that he hadn't reported it the same day. So his nerves got in the way of reporting her absence when he should have done.

 

[icemaiden65]

I wonder if the 'trousers' are the ones he was wearing at the tip. I expect it's hard to tell, CCTV is usually in black and white isn't it?

These days it's much more common for CCTV to be in colour. Our home CCTV cameras are all colour during daylight, but they do (automatically I think) switch to black and white after dark for better definition when the security lights are triggered. Mostly it's hedgehog spotting (smile) but the other week, whilst away from home, we spotted some oik hop over the garden railings at 1:30 am and try my car door. It was uploaded to the 'cloud' and my OH then checks images and video footage the following day. The would be 'tea leaf' very kindly looked directly at a well hidden camera so that's now with the local police as the naughty little tinker did find a car door left unlocked a few streets away and ran off with an iPad. Sigh - nothing's safe is it!

By the way, I meant to say how very touched I was by the kind words etc. about the murder of my Aunt. Thank you! I wasn't on a pity party - just trying to explain how utterly life shattering it is and, especially given the place IS (or Joe/Nick) hid Helen's body, her family won't ever really move on from that horror. You also find yourself haunted by the terror that the victim must have felt knowing they were to be killed. My Aunt tried to crawl to the phone to call for help as he ransacked upstairs looking for money - he then cut the line before carrying on beating her and breaking every bone in her face so that she could only be recognised by one eye. I so hope Helen didn't feel that fear........for even an instant.

Thank you again - it meant a lot. x And I will try not to mention it on here again, but oddly enough it has helped me to face the demons.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm intrigued by the shirt significance too! Though I don't think the case can stand or fall on the nurse's recollection of the colour of shirt he was wearing at an appointment nine months ago.

No the case won't hinge on it, but there must be something we haven't heard about yet which makes it significant. Or there would be no reason to mention it.

 

[icemaiden65]

No the case won't hinge on it, but there must be something we haven't heard about yet which makes it significant. Or there would be no reason to mention it.

I agree. Can't work out why but were they trying to pin down his visits and possible costume changes back at the house? Got me puzzled.
Come on Alyce - you're good at timeframes!

 

[Tortoise]

Michelle were you in court when they showed the CCTV of the tip? If so, did they point out a different colour of shirt?

 

[michelle230]

Michelle were you in court when they showed the CCTV of the tip? If so, did they point out a different colour of shirt?

No. In fact quite a big deal was made of the fact that the CCTV system was not very good e.g. it was a "still" camera and only came into action when there was movement and the cameras around the site were not co-ordinated timewise. Think they talked about having to update them, but no - it wasn`t mentioned.