GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #4

[Cherwell]

I worry slightly (I'm a terrible worrier, I couldn't shoplift let alone commit murder!) that certain small but pertinent facts may be slipping through the net, eg that Helen did not weight 12 stone at the moment of her murder, that the duvet described as white seen on CCTV footage could in fact be the green one that's missing, and did the pros mention on opening the case that there was no CCTV found of Helen on Monday 11th April, therefore she could not have left the house that day as IS claimed?

We're only hearing a fraction of what is being said in court, and also the prosecution will make a closing speech after all the evidence has been heard, in which all the important points can be rounded up and included in the narrative.

 

[looroll]

OT But anyone like to do this survey as part of my daughters dissertation?

https://rhulpsychology.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe5/form/SV_8GmSMaD4vNkZfyl

The survey is about acting as the jury in a court case

Done
x

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think these points will be missed. Does anyone know if the jurors discuss amongst themselves like on telly? And if so how often? Sorry if this is a naive question!

They are instructed at the start not to discuss anything unless they are all together, so not to split off into pairs and have separate discussions. They are also not allowed to discuss in public areas where they can be overheard, like in the canteen. I suppose it depends on the building facilities but when I did jury service at the Old Bailey, we could have discussions in an old disused courtroom when we were hanging around waiting to be called in. Quite often the jury is sent out during legal argument (counsel were always arguing) and there is a lot of waiting around.

 

[Cherwell]

They are instructed at the start not to discuss anything unless they are all together, so not to split off into pairs and have separate discussions. They are also not allowed to discuss in public areas where they can be overheard, like in the canteen. I suppose it depends on the building facilities but when I did jury service at the Old Bailey, we could have discussions in an old disused courtroom when we were hanging around waiting to be called in. Quite often the jury is sent out during legal argument (counsel were always arguing) and there is a lot of waiting around.

I suppose not so long ago people would bring a book to read. Now I guess people are glued to their phones, playing Candy Crush or whatever - assuming they're allowed to bring internet devices in with them? No different from trusting them not to read about the case on the internet when they go home each day.

 

[Tortoise]

I suppose not so long ago people would bring a book to read. Now I guess people are glued to their phones, playing Candy Crush or whatever - assuming they're allowed to bring internet devices in with them? No different from trusting them not to read about the case on the internet when they go home each day.

Yeah, not having a mobile phone myself I can't remember the rules, but I think they had to be left in lockers on the top floor.

 

[Tortoise]

Well I suppose we haven't heard the mobile phone evidence yet. Presumably Stewart's phone in Tesco did actually serve a purpose, as regards later tracking of it to various mast locations.

 

[Tortoise]

Oh and the examination of the computers. Has that been covered yet?

 

[DollyDiamond]

I don't think these points will be missed. Does anyone know if the jurors discuss amongst themselves like on telly? And if so how often? Sorry if this is a naive question!

I don't know if jurors eat lunch together and discuss the evidence - obviously at the end of all the evidence they are sent out and sit down and discuss for a long or a short time before (hopefully) reaching a unanimous verdict. I do hope this won't be a long drawn out one, with them asking lots of supplementary questions. It seems pretty clear cut to all of us, but as some have suggested, without witness or dna evidence, its possible some jurors may not feel 100% about convicting.

A lot will hinge on his performance on the stand and from what we know of the man so far, I'm pretty sure he'll be like a rabbit in the headlights.

 

[Joely 123]

Nightmare weekend for IS - as he tumbles his argument to defend himself.
He - if able - shall stand in that Witness box full of his own victimhood -
I hope he leaks his anger towards Helen - and how he can remember minute details to protect himself -
and yet 'forgets' the facts on the day of April 11th.
I hope the Prosecution have lots of 'recalled' witnesses to contradict him in his lies.
`What a terrible weekend to question whether he feels guilt or rage.
And possibly, as a result, too ill on Monday.

 

[DollyDiamond]

Hope you'll forgive me for throwing in a little light relief on this (hopefully our last) day of silence in court. A little newspaper snippet that caught my eye today:

The late Sir John Hurt made his TV acting debut on the BBC's 1960s crime series 'Z Cars', which went out live before the early evening news.

Playing a murder suspect, Hurt was to be interrogated for eight minutes by burly, foghorn-voiced PC 'Fancy' Smith (Brian Blessed), before admitting his guilt.

Blessed recalled: "John was so nervous, he confessed immediately and we had to go to the news five minutes early".

Let's hope the same thing happens to IS on Monday!

 

[icemaiden65]

Could the white duvet on CCTV in actual fact have been pale green?

Very possibly. Our home CCTV cameras can sometimes show colours 'washed out' depending upon the light situation during the day. Or, given they appear to bit a bit past their sell by dates, perhaps the tip CCTV cameras are indeed black and white.

 

[Lit Up]

Has it been reported who is testifying today?

 

[neteditor]

I don't think these points will be missed. Does anyone know if the jurors discuss amongst themselves like on telly? And if so how often? Sorry if this is a naive question!

I've never sat on a jury myself, but have attended many hundreds of trials as a news reporter. That means a lot of hanging around the court lobbies, waiting for action in the courts. What I can tell you is that the only time you ever see the jury is when they are sitting in court. They are not allowed to be in the public areas including the canteen. Obviously, this is to prevent any communication with witnesses etc.

It is my understanding that they are waited on hand and foot by court clerks! I've never seen a juror arriving through the public doors either so I assume they have a private entrance. There are jury rooms somewhere in the private areas of the court building where they go while waiting for court to rise, during adjournments, lunch time etc. They are not shared with other juries each will have their own room.

They do definitely discuss the evidence during these times, which you can see from the number of times the Judge receives a message asking for clarification on evidence that has been heard.

If you remember, in Lit Up's brilliant description of court, it was described as being quite deserted (sorry can't remember the exact wording). There's a huge hive of activity going on in areas the public can't see. Court clerks and judges are all behind then scenes. You'd see barristers and solicitors a fair bit as they move between court rooms and other areas (there are interview rooms off the public areas where legal teams can meet with witnesses to discuss cases in private).

 

[BatFace]

<rubs hands at start of a new day of evidence>

 

[Moll]

What Neteditor says accords with my memory of being a juror, though it was a long time ago - I was on three short cases and recall suffering a lot from the smoke in the waiting room in between!
I was alarmed on that occasion by the number of people who hadn't a clue, but here I am encouraged by the questions the jury asked about the financial gain IS was expected to make. I spent a lot of time reminding fellow jurors that the prosecution has to prove guilt, and had a tremendous row with someone who reckoned that a drug addict was bound to be guilty of any offence they might be accused of. However, on this occasion I feel (barring anything extraordinary that might occur next week) pretty sure I'd feel there was no reasonable doubt.

 

[neteditor]

What Neteditor says accords with my memory of being a juror, though it was a long time ago - I was on three short cases and recall suffering a lot from the smoke in the waiting room in between!
I was alarmed on that occasion by the number of people who hadn't a clue, but here I am encouraged by the questions the jury asked about the financial gain IS was expected to make. I spent a lot of time reminding fellow jurors that the prosecution has to prove guilt, and had a tremendous row with someone who reckoned that a drug addict was bound to be guilty of any offence they might be accused of. However, on this occasion I feel (barring anything extraordinary that might occur next week) pretty sure I'd feel there was no reasonable doubt.

BBM: That made me chuckle. Back in the olden days before smoking was banned in public places, there was usually only one place in the public court area where smoking was permitted - the press room! Every now and again we'd receive a visit from a barrister who wished to share our smoking facility. Barristers mixing with press was generally frowned upon, so it would often only be the ones who were senior enough that nobody would dream of accusing them of impropriety. Michael Mansfield QC was highly entertaining. And every now again you'd get a little tip off. They couldn't say anything specific of course, but perhaps a hint of "You might want to sit in Court 1 this afternoon" (wink wink).

I wonder what they do about smoking jurors these days? I doubt they're allowed to smoke in jury rooms, but perhaps there is a designate smoking room. Or do they have to go outside? They'd have to be accompanied by a court clerk to ensure they didn't talk to anyone though?

 

[Alyce]

Has it been reported who is testifying today?

Not seen anything yet on twitter.

 

[Tortoise]

I've never sat on a jury myself, but have attended many hundreds of trials as a news reporter. That means a lot of hanging around the court lobbies, waiting for action in the courts. What I can tell you is that the only time you ever see the jury is when they are sitting in court. They are not allowed to be in the public areas including the canteen. Obviously, this is to prevent any communication with witnesses etc.

It is my understanding that they are waited on hand and foot by court clerks! I've never seen a juror arriving through the public doors either so I assume they have a private entrance. There are jury rooms somewhere in the private areas of the court building where they go while waiting for court to rise, during adjournments, lunch time etc. They are not shared with other juries each will have their own room.

They do definitely discuss the evidence during these times, which you can see from the number of times the Judge receives a message asking for clarification on evidence that has been heard.

If you remember, in Lit Up's brilliant description of court, it was described as being quite deserted (sorry can't remember the exact wording). There's a huge hive of activity going on in areas the public can't see. Court clerks and judges are all behind then scenes. You'd see barristers and solicitors a fair bit as they move between court rooms and other areas (there are interview rooms off the public areas where legal teams can meet with witnesses to discuss cases in private).

At the Old Bailey jurors enter through the main front entrance along with witnesses there to give evidence and barristers. Entry to the public galleries is a separate entrance around the corner in an alleyway. If you see a barrister working on your case you aren't allowed to share the lift with them. Jurors for all cases as well as jurors in the jury pool who aren't on a case yet all share a massive seating area and canteen on the top floor. So when you are up there during tea breaks and lunchtimes you can't discuss the case. When your case is called over the tannoy you all have to proceed down to the waiting area you have been allocated, close to the court room and wait there for the clerk to come and get you.

During deliberations the rules change. You enter through the back of the court which is where the deliberation suites are. I call them suites because they are quite posh. Carpeted and curtained with their own loos. Once you have all arrived they take you into the deliberation room and once inside the door is locked, all day. It is like a conference room with a large table and seats all around. A monitor to play the CCTV videos on as many times as you like. If you want to look at a piece of evidence, like an item of clothing, it is brought in. You take your lunch with you and eat it in there and make your own teas and coffees with the kettle provided. If you want anything, like you want to send a note to the judge to ask a question, you have to ring the bell for the clerk. Mobile phones aren't allowed, they are gathered up in the morning and locked in a safe in the room.

 

[Tortoise]

BBM: That made me chuckle. Back in the olden days before smoking was banned in public places, there was usually only one place in the public court area where smoking was permitted - the press room! Every now and again we'd receive a visit from a barrister who wished to share our smoking facility. Barristers mixing with press was generally frowned upon, so it would often only be the ones who were senior enough that nobody would dream of accusing them of impropriety. Michael Mansfield QC was highly entertaining. And every now again you'd get a little tip off. They couldn't say anything specific of course, but perhaps a hint of "You might want to sit in Court 1 this afternoon" (wink wink).

I wonder what they do about smoking jurors these days? I doubt they're allowed to smoke in jury rooms, but perhaps there is a designate smoking room. Or do they have to go outside? They'd have to be accompanied by a court clerk to ensure they didn't talk to anyone though?

Smokers at the OB (jurors and barristers) leave the building during breaks and stand apart from each other in the sheltered doorways. During deliberation stage smokers can go out a couple of times a day to a courtyard area with the usher, but all jurors have to go too.

 

[neteditor]

At the Old Bailey jurors enter through the main front entrance along with witnesses there to give evidence and barristers. Entry to the public galleries is a separate entrance around the corner in an alleyway. If you see a barrister working on your case you aren't allowed to share the lift with them. Jurors for all cases as well as jurors in the jury pool who aren't on a case yet all share a massive seating area and canteen on the top floor. So when you are up there during tea breaks and lunchtimes you can't discuss the case. When your case is called over the tannoy you all have to proceed down to the waiting area you have been allocated, close to the court room and wait there for the clerk to come and get you.

During deliberations the rules change. You enter through the back of the court which is where the deliberation suites are. I call them suites because they are quite posh. Carpeted and curtained with their own loos. Once you have all arrived they take you into the deliberation room and once inside the door is locked, all day. It is like a conference room with a large table and seats all around. A monitor to play the CCTV videos on as many times as you like. If you want to look at a piece of evidence, like an item of clothing, it is brought in. You take your lunch with you and eat it in there and make your own teas and coffees with the kettle provided. If you want anything, like you want to send a note to the judge to ask a question, you have to ring the bell for the clerk. Mobile phones aren't allowed, they are gathered up in the morning and locked in a safe in the room.

Lovely, Tortoise, to have that additional info. I've never strayed from the Midlands and it's modern court buildings (apart from a few older magistrates courts that are probably superceded by new buildings now also) so have no experience of the older ones like OB that have to make do with what they have. The OB has an amazing background and history, well worth studying if one is interested in historic London.