GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #6

[Duchy]

So folks, I'm opening a book on IS' likely defence witnesses this week, any suggestions? Here are my guesses:

The milkman: ("He's a lovely bloke, drinks full fat and loves his Mullerlight Crunch Corner Yoghurts").

The postman ("He's a lovely bloke. No I haven't met him he's never up that early").

His barber ("He's a lovely bloke. Never met him 'til he was a police suspect, then I couldn't get him out of my shop").

The local chemist ("He's a lovely bloke, always picks up his prescriptions on time and he's my best customer for 'Anusol' cream").

Nick and Joe ("Who the * is Ian Stewart?")

Your forgot

IT support forum members (oh him!)

Online pharmacy owner Divyansh Patel (oh him, he's my favourite uncle)

Off Mains Drainage Solutions website moderator (Oh yes, I remember him very well)

Chinese takeaway online delivery man (He's a bit tight with the tips)

www.awesomeinventionideas.co.uk forum members (er...............)

 

[Joely 123]

Heads off to dunces corner with pen and paper to write out 100 times...must try harder :shame:

:goldcrown:for you Alyce in all you have done to set the record straight x

 

[Alyce]

Well well well. Our last week of trial probably. I'd say 2 more days in the witness box and a day each for the wigs to sum up. Defence summing up should be interesting. He's going to have to try to keep a straight face.

As long as he doesn't use the words

If you are unsure IN ANY WAY

Or I won't be keeping a straight face

 

[MillyM]

I still can't see - from what has been revealed of his character and past so far - how this seemingly okay bloke with no previous convictions and no one seems to have spoken ill of, commits this murder? Okay, he was in poor health and non working, but as he said, he had enough money. Doesn't seem he had massive debts or lived an excessively expensive lifestyle. Why didn't he just leave her if he was bored or whatever and move on, or get married and then ditch her after a year having got a nice pre-nup signed so that he'd walk away with a tidy penny.*

We can all surmise his psychological state, but we haven't had any psych report to say he's not quite the full shilling, but I do wonder whether he has become so embroiled and caught up in this whole story that he has fabricated that he does now actually believe it did really happen as he tells it. (There is a medical term for this which escapes me right now.)

 

[DollyDiamond]

I still can't see - from what has been revealed of his character and past so far - how this seemingly okay bloke with no previous convictions and no one seems to have spoken ill of, commits this murder? Okay, he was in poor health and non working, but as he said, he had enough money. Doesn't seem he had massive debts or lived an excessively expensive lifestyle. Why didn't he just leave her if he was bored or whatever and move on, or get married and then ditch her after a year having got a nice pre-nup signed so that he'd walk away with a tidy penny.*

We can all surmise his psychological state, but we haven't had any psych report to say he's not quite the full shilling, but I do wonder whether he has become so embroiled and caught up in this whole story that he has fabricated that he does now actually believe it did really happen as he tells it. (There is a medical term for this which escapes me right now.)

The medical term you're thinking of is total bullsh****r!

Your question keeps returning to me time and time again. Though the motive was money, to any reasonable person it's not a motive that adds up. I think boiling it down, his pathological greed and love of money is as weird, debauched and out of control as his ability to murder.

As you say, he was well off even without meeting Helen, with a nice house, a five figure sum coming in every year (without having to earn it), a big chunk of money in the bank and as an only child, a future inheritance to come.

For someone who loves money in the weirdly unbalanced way he does, meeting the wealthy Helen will have pushed all his buttons. He wasn't content to share her wealth with her, he wanted it all to himself so much he would kill her and Boris for it. That's a huge concept to take in and its the reason he is so dangerous. I just hope we don't get one or two in the jury saying "He didn't need her cash, it doesn't make sense that he killed her". They'd be right because his motive makes no sense to anyone but him! But its surely obvious now the only person who could have murdered Helen is Ian Stewart.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I still can't see - from what has been revealed of his character and past so far - how this seemingly okay bloke with no previous convictions and no one seems to have spoken ill of, commits this murder? Okay, he was in poor health and non working, but as he said, he had enough money. Doesn't seem he had massive debts or lived an excessively expensive lifestyle. Why didn't he just leave her if he was bored or whatever and move on, or get married and then ditch her after a year having got a nice pre-nup signed so that he'd walk away with a tidy penny.*

We can all surmise his psychological state, but we haven't had any psych report to say he's not quite the full shilling, but I do wonder whether he has become so embroiled and caught up in this whole story that he has fabricated that he does now actually believe it did really happen as he tells it. (There is a medical term for this which escapes me right now.)

Are you thinking of confabulation (psychiatric terminology) although I think he has conscious intention to deceive.

In psychiatry, confabulation (verb: confabulate) is a disturbance of memory, defined as the production of fabricated, distorted, or misinterpreted memories about oneself or the world, without the conscious intention to deceive

 

[MillyM]

DD, you make me laugh!

It was this I was thinking of:

Compulsive lying disorder, also known as pseudologia fantastica or mythomania, is a condition that describes the behavior of a habitual liar.

​While compulsive lying disorder is actually not included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV), except as a symptom of factitious disorder, many psychiatrists and psychologists consider it a distinct mental disorder.

In the past two decades countless hours of research and multiple papers have been written regarding this issue, though it remains one of the most under researched psychiatric conditions. Individuals with the disorder simply cannot stop themselves from misrepresenting the truth.

People with the disorder are not able to control their lies and experience no guilt regardless of how the lies may affect themselves and others. The lack of guilt is frequently the result of the fact that the individual becomes so caught up in the lie that they are telling, they begin to believe it themselves. If confronted with a lie they have told in the past or one that they are presently telling, they will be insistent that they are speaking the truth.

Over time, the individual will become so adept at lying that it will be very difficult for others to determine if they are, in fact, telling the truth. There are no exact figures regarding the number of people that suffer from this disorder, but has been found to be equally common in men and women and usually becomes very apparent in the late teens.

The defining characteristics of compulsive lying disorder are:

The stories told are not entirely improbable and often have some element of truth. They are not a manifestation of delusion or some broader type of psychosis: upon confrontation, the teller can admit them to be untrue, even if unwillingly.
The fabricative tendency is long lasting; it is not provoked by the immediate situation or social pressure as much as it is an innate trait of the personality.
A definitely internal, not an external, motive for the behavior can be discerned clinically: e.g., long-lasting extortion or habitual spousal battery might cause a person to lie repeatedly, without the lying being a pathological symptom.
The stories told tend toward presenting the liar favorably. For example, the person might be presented as being fantastically brave, knowing or being related to many famous people.

Dike, Charles C. (June 1, 2008). Pathological Lying: Symptom or Disease? 25 (7).

​Currently, there are several theories as to what causes an individual to develop compulsive lying disorder. There has been research completed that indicates it is the result of neurological imbalance, particularly in the frontal lobe. A study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry reported that pathological liars have an increase in the amount of white matter in the brain predisposing them to the condition. The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences reported that brain scans had found that those with this disorder suffered from right hemithalamic dysfunction. There are also various psychiatric theories regarding the cause.

Many psychiatrists and psychologists believe that individuals with low self-esteem who are looking, whether knowingly or unknowingly, for attention, popularity, love, or to cover up a failure are prone to developing the disorder. Finally, there is speculation that it is a reaction to childhood trauma or neglect or failure of the parents to establish realistic limits and provide guidance. It is important to note that many experts believe that habitual lying is a symptom of a larger personality disorder including borderline personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder.

 

[Interested Bystander]

DD, you make me laugh!

It was this I was thinking of:

Compulsive lying disorder, also known as pseudologia fantastica or mythomania, is a condition that describes the behavior of a habitual liar.

​While compulsive lying disorder is actually not included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV), except as a symptom of factitious disorder, many psychiatrists and psychologists consider it a distinct mental disorder.

Respectfully snipped

That is very interesting. Many of us who followed the Pistorius trial thought he suffered from this. He told his "lies" so often they became real to him.

It could be we are looking at the same sort of problem.

 

[Cherwell]

My diagnosis of his condition is that he is a Nasty Piece Of Work.

Yes, he is greedy, but I think that he had grown to hate Helen. It's difficult to see how they would have had anything in common, and I suspect that he didn't actually find her attractive. It's easy to say that he could have walked away, but he wanted all her money and I have no doubt that she would have made sure that any pre-nup agreement would leave her no worse off than when she met him.

 

[Interested Bystander]

My diagnosis of his condition is that he is a Nasty Piece Of Work.

Yes, he is greedy, but I think that he had grown to hate Helen. It's difficult to see how they would have had anything in common, and I suspect that he didn't actually find her attractive. It's easy to say that he could have walked away, but he wanted all her money and I have no doubt that she would have made sure that any pre-nup agreement would leave her no worse off than when she met him.

Do you not think if he hated her that much it would have shown? Surely the boys would have noticed some sort of problem with the relationship.

 

[snoopydog]

I still can't see - from what has been revealed of his character and past so far - how this seemingly okay bloke with no previous convictions and no one seems to have spoken ill of, commits this murder? Okay, he was in poor health and non working, but as he said, he had enough money. Doesn't seem he had massive debts or lived an excessively expensive lifestyle. Why didn't he just leave her if he was bored or whatever and move on, or get married and then ditch her after a year having got a nice pre-nup signed so that he'd walk away with a tidy penny.*

We can all surmise his psychological state, but we haven't had any psych report to say he's not quite the full shilling, but I do wonder whether he has become so embroiled and caught up in this whole story that he has fabricated that he does now actually believe it did really happen as he tells it. (There is a medical term for this which escapes me right now.)

I spoke to my psychiatrist friend about this case and his understanding was that a full psych evaluation wouldn't happen because he is pleading not guilty therefore doesn't need to use his mental state as a defence. He's innocent after all..... NOT

There would have been some evaluation but not to a level that it could be something that prosecutors could use against him. Al the evidence from psychs so far are ones he self referred and basically came across badly to. He shot himself in the foot there imo. Overkill with trying to get the sympathy vote from anyone who would listen....


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[snoopydog]

I personally think his motives were the money and that he felt emasculated by her. She was better than him, filled with talent etc etc etc and I'm sure her pointing out that she was worried he didn't have enough money got to him, all she was doing was showing a healthy concern he probably saw this as her putting him down. He's twisted and I don't think he could take being propelled into her world. It made him feel pathetic and I think this whole thing was a bit of 'let's see who's clever now'. If that makes sense....


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[DollyDiamond]

Do you not think if he hated her that much it would have shown? Surely the boys would have noticed some sort of problem with the relationship.

He is a coward who avoids any kind of confrontation, so showing hatred isn't his thing. He is inadequate, uncomfortable in his own skin and never lets anyone get close enough to subject him to scrutiny. This is how he has always remained under the radar as that "lovely bloke" and why he never had a cross word with Helen. That's not his style. His style is to sneak about, read her diaries, find out every detail of her finances drug her and when she is helpless, suffocate her.

I think Cherwell's summary of IS is spot on. I also suspect as I mentioned elsewhere he has sexual inadequacies that Helen will have become increasingly aware of - another reason he was not liking the reflection of himself he saw in her eyes. I don't think her positioning in a cess pit was only down to practicalities - its significance in terms of her degradation cannot be ignored. This was IS telling the world loud and clear what he thought of her.

 

[tlcya]

Thread #7 is ready to roll. Please move over as this one will close in five minutes.

 

[tlcya]

Thread #7

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