GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #7

[Duchy]

“Because I normally walk to Royston, but this time I used the car because it was raining.”

“As I was approaching her I thought ‘Oh that’s Helen I haven’t seen her in ages’. “Then I thought she would get wet as it started drizzling."

It had only started to drizzle during the journey but took car because it was raining.

 

[snoopydog]

Just a little note... These are ordinary people who believe they saw something and are trying to tell the truth about what they saw and explain the statements they gave to police. They're not trying to get IS off the chopping block or say he's innocent - they're literally trying to explain what they think they've seen, and probably completely believe they've seen.

We know what they've seen (or when they're saying they've seen it) can't be true, but it doesn't mean they're siding with IS or that they're intentionally lying. Witness testimony is not completely reliable - we know this.

Let's try not to be too mean to these people who are probably very nervous witnesses who have found themselves embroiled in a mess created entirely by IS. Let's not shift any acrimony on to them.

I didn't intend to sound mean to any of them. I'm more just heavily disputing their absolute certainty. NO DOUBT etc.


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[Tortoise]

appears not Duchy

“Then I thought she would get wet as it started drizzling. "

Yet she was in her car already because it was raining. :thinking:

 

[Cherwell]

ETA - just remembered, when occasionally acquaintances would ask neighbour if I was his daughter, neighbour's smile soon faded.

Those things can be so crushing! People saying to women "oh, but you look like sisters!" So flattering to Mum, but not so nice for daughter ...

Recently I was with my godmother who is 80, and we met her granddaughter. When I mentioned being a goddaughter, granddaughter said "Oh, but you look much too young to be her godmother!" Ouch.

 

[Cherwell]

“Because I normally walk to Royston, but this time I used the car because it was raining.”

“As I was approaching her I thought ‘Oh that’s Helen I haven’t seen her in ages’. “Then I thought she would get wet as it started drizzling."

It had only started to drizzle during the journey but took car because it was raining.

That could be explained if rain was forecast, ie took car because rain was forecast, or it looked like it might rain.
Does sound a bit of a muddle though. I don't think she saw Helen.

In any case, it wouldn't let him off the hook, just means the timeline must have been different.

 

[LozDa]

I didn't intend to sound mean to any of them. I'm more just heavily disputing their absolute certainty. NO DOUBT etc.


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I promise I wasn't suggesting anyone was currently being mean - more that I could see it slipping down that road. I understand good old fashioned humour and mocking, but I just thought it was worth mentioning that these are just people doing their best to remember things. It's been a long old time since last April and they will have gone over it in their minds a million times. Some things are going to seem concrete in their minds after all this time, even though we know, with the benefit of all the other information, that it can't be possible.

If they visit these threads at some stage in the future (and I would absolutely expect them to, being so closely tied to it), I'd rather we weren't calling them names or being overtly mean about them just because they've said things (which they absolutely believe to be true, as per usual witness testimony), that don't fit the events we know to have happened with the benefit of the whole history of evidence.

I wasn't calling anyone out - I promise. It was just a gentle reminder - I need them a lot of the time too! x

 

[Interested Bystander]

IS said that Helen did not walk Boris that morning. Why would anyone believe a casual passer-by.

Out of interest I have tracked down a weather station in Letchworth Garden City which is not too far from Royston and even nearer to where IS/HB lived (I think)

Unfortunately it shows 4mm of rain for llth April whereas Cambridge says no rain. As we know rain can be very local and this may mean nothing but I attach (I hope) the read-out for 11th April 2016. Unfortunately the table does not split it down to actual timing unlike Wunderground.


http://www.accuweather.com/en/gb/le...ril-weather/2311113?monyr=4/1/2016&view=table

 

[Tortoise]

BIB No, there's so more than one person then!
Seriously though , the Pros team did reply and say there were most interested in the info. Sadly, I think in this case it was sent too late for the stage in the legal process.

Do you mean in this case or that other one you were referring to?

 

[T41]

New here. Hello!

Just to pop in another Cambridge college term dates and they were indeed back on the Monday.

"Spring Term 2016Summer Term 2016Autumn Term 2016 TERM DATES
Monday 4th January – Thursday 24th March)(Half term: Monday 15th-Friday 19th February)Monday 11th April – Wednesday 20th July)
(Half term: Monday 30th May – Friday 3rd June)Friday 26th August - Friday 16th December(Half term Monday 24th – Friday 28th October) "

No mention of an inset day. http://www.hillsroad.ac.uk/docs/default-source/default-document-library/calendar15-16.pdf

 

[Duchy]

Remind me, when did IS say he last saw Helen?

 

[cottonweaver]

BBM - What does everyone make of this? Walking in a determined fashion? Someone in a bad mood or in a hurry?
Putting her hands through her hair? Feeling exasperated, worrying, thinking?
For all we know, it wasn't even Helen. I wonder if the person walking their dachshund knows about this trial, that it was them not Helen? Or it's the wrong day or ? :thinking:

Prime, if you're still here or if anyone else recalls the facts on BIB Do we have the name of this local person who has mini dachs? ( I'm just sending that email with the couple of points in and it's worth adding that. )
Anything else to put in before I send? ( have done leash-hands and rain CCTV royston points)

 

[LozDa]

IS said that Helen did not walk Boris that morning. Why would anyone believe a casual passer-by.

Out of interest I have tracked down a weather station in Letchworth Garden City which is not too far from Royston and even nearer to where IS/HB lived (I think)

Unfortunately it shows 4mm of rain for llth April whereas Cambridge says no rain. As we know rain can be very local and this may mean nothing but I attach (I hope) the read-out for 11th April 2016.


http://www.accuweather.com/en/gb/le...ril-weather/2311113?monyr=4/1/2016&view=table

There was rain mentioned on the other site also - but between 6.40pm and 8pm or something similar. I couldn't find a way to find more detail on that date on your link. Perhaps there was some slight drizzle, though. Either way, I think it's a safe bet that it wasn't Helen she saw.

 

[cottonweaver]

Do you mean in this case or that other one you were referring to?

No, an earlier one which we both followed.

 

[Moll]

Not only that her description is far too specific yet vague, silhouetted yet beige, raining yet the light was able to silhouette her against a fence, sorry but NO. I'm a photographer and pretty aware of what's going on around me for taking photo reasons. So, just for example I went a walk up a hill on Sunday and I'm trying to recall any of the people I passed. I remember ONLY very distinctive ones. Man in bright yellow ski trousers, families with various dogs, woman with man smoking and holding carrier bags taking a selfie - the only reason this last couple stayed in my head is because I thought it was out of place and would have made a good photo, I can't tell you what they were wearing or specifically what they looked like. ANYWAY, point being. That was only Sunday. EVEN if I was contacted by the police now to say one of them was killed. I could not be certain on any details apart from very basic ones. It's amazing the differences in what you recall to when you are given photographic evidence.
I think more should have been made of the woman's 'No doubt' comments tbh.

Sorry for the waffle. In work and covertly messaging...


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Entirely agree, but one might allow for a little extra retention in this case since HB was not totally unknown to the witness: she was interested in the fact that HB was an author and hoped one day to speak to her. That doesn't however cover all the objections to her certainty, conflicting details etc.

I think Cherwell's right and she must just have been mistaken, then days later when the police came round was keen to be helpful.

 

[cottonweaver]

who had the INSET training day link for the college so I can compare it with T41's post.

Don't want to include that in the email if T41 is absolutely right.

Welcome T41

 

[Tortoise]

Prime, if you're still here or if anyone else recalls the facts on BIB Do we have the name of this local person who has mini dachs? ( I'm just sending that email with the couple of points in and it's worth adding that. )
Anything else to put in before I send? ( have done leash-hands and rain CCTV royston points)

Maybe that she said it was raining so she used her car but then noticed that it was only starting to drizzle when she saw Helen.

But these points are so basic it's almost embarrassing to point out, I wonder if he might have even said it and it wasn't reported fully.

 

[icemaiden65]

I know the things you mean but I am not talking aboujt those. In the Google map image dated August 16 there are clearly what look like A4 size notices or laminates perhaps. I resized as high I could go and there does look to be a yellow warning triangle at end of the sheet, so probably is a safety warning notice as was said.

Ah, my mistake! Yup, they're warning notices but I can't enlarge them much more than to see they seem to say 'Danger Keep Out' at the top and then some other words before the warning sign at the bottom.

But it was interesting to see the side gate which could be hopped over without any problem - if we really did believe the Nick and Joe garbage.

 

[T41]

It was abbey college that had the inset day but Hills Road does not.

and thank you

 

[LozDa]

who had the INSET training day link for the college so I can compare it with T41's post.

Don't want to include that in the email if T41 is absolutely right.

Welcome T41

It was Alyce, here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...yston-11-April-2016-7&p=13143241#post13143241

ETA: They may also have been referring to 6th form college, which could be at any Cambs school. It would be more likely to have an inset day at a 6th Form College than not, I would say (being the daughter and sister of teachers!)

 

[snoopydog]

Entirely agree, but one might allow for a little extra retention in this case since HB was not totally unknown to the witness: she was interested in the fact that HB was an author and hoped one day to speak to her. That doesn't however cover all the objections to her certainty, conflicting details etc.

I think Cherwell's right and she must just have been mistaken, then days later when the police came round was keen to be helpful.

Agree but I do think these witnesses with their certainty could throw doubt into the jury's mind... ach maybe not but you never know.... I think they should have been more clearly discredited than what we've heard so far.


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