UK UK - Jill Dando, 37, Fulham, London, 26 Apr 1999

  • #861
I've just finished Michael Burke's book and musing on something: in his account of the trial he does not mention whether the witness who saw "Sweating Man" at the bus stop shortly after the murder on FPR gave evidence. Neither does Cathcart if memory serves. What happened to this sighting? Was Sweating Man in fact Running Man, who was ruled out? Or someone else entirely? Did he rule himself out? It's likely not relevant but I'm intrigued. Anyone have any information 🙂?
 
  • #862
I want to say I’ve come across the bus stop witness’s name at some point but I couldn’t find a source identifying him when I had a look this morning, so perhaps I’m misremembering reading that. It’d be fascinating to get his take on whether our undertaker friend, JS, was the man he got an incredibly good look at - was he asked to identify him?

We know JS was cleared as a suspect but I’m not remotely convinced that anything JS has said about being ‘running man’ and/or ‘bus stop man’ is true.

Likewise, were any of the Gowan Avenue witnesses asked to identify him? After all, JS pretty much admitted to being in GA that morning: ‘[JS], who lives alone in a flat in Shepherds Bush, West London, stressed: "I might have walked down Jill Dando's road but I did not kill her."’
 
  • #863
I hadn't heard of "running man" at all until I saw the Netflix doc. I guess LE were satisfied with JS's explanation but no, I can't recall any witnesses being asked to identify him. He does seem to be a colourful character.

Another thing I noticed regarding Running Man was that, according to the Netflix doc (so maybe unreliable - who knows?) Running Man was unusually tall. I don't remember him being described thus by any of the witnesses. Bus Stop Man's recall of Sweating Man produced the photofit, so he must've had a pretty good look, but according to him, Sweating Man was around 5'10". Not unusually tall.

Not sure what happened to Trilby Man either, or Agitated Man standing on corner minutes before the shooting. Were they identified and ruled out I wonder?
 
  • #864
I hadn't heard of "running man" at all until I saw the Netflix doc. I guess LE were satisfied with JS's explanation but no, I can't recall any witnesses being asked to identify him. He does seem to be a colourful character.

Another thing I noticed regarding Running Man was that, according to the Netflix doc (so maybe unreliable - who knows?) Running Man was unusually tall. I don't remember him being described thus by any of the witnesses. Bus Stop Man's recall of Sweating Man produced the photofit, so he must've had a pretty good look, but according to him, Sweating Man was around 5'10". Not unusually tall.

Not sure what happened to Trilby Man either, or Agitated Man standing on corner minutes before the shooting. Were they identified and ruled out I wonder?
Eyewitness accounts concerning the height of people they have seen is notoriously unreliable. Perhaps the best example is Robert Napper. He was six foot two but witnesses described him as being much shorter.

"During the investigation into the {Green Chain, Plumstead] rapes, Napper had been eliminated due to his 6' 2" height, as detectives had decided to exclude anyone over 6' based on the description of a 5' 7" rapist. However, there are conflicting witness reports of the rapist's height and Napper walked with a stoop." (Wikipedia)

"A month after the [Rachel] Nickell attack, an e-fit picture of the alleged rapist behind the south London assaults was released and Napper, who was in his mid-20s at the time, was questioned.

However, he was wrongly eliminated because he was thought to be too tall as the rapist had been described as being under 6ft. Napper, however, was known to walk with a pronounced stoop.

The police in the Nickell case launched a massive manhunt and questioned 32 men in connection, in the end electing to focus on the innocent Colin Stagg, who regularly walked his dog on Wimbledon Common."


Witness Jane Harriman identified Stagg as a man she saw on Wimbledon Common in an ID parade despite Stagg being a self confessed "short*rse git". Witnesses described a man who was "bending forward", maybe trying to hide his face, as reported on Crimewatch. His height was described as "over" 5' 10" or 6' tall. Bad policing! Step forward Keith Pedder.

See
from 19 mins 52 secs.

See
from 2 mins 4 secs.

"He [Stagg] also disputed evidence of his whereabouts on the day of her murder and claimed not to be a violent man. Witnesses Susan Gale and Jane Harriman both described seeing Colin Stagg between 9.25am and 10.23am on the day Ms Nickell died. But Mr Stagg insisted he was home after his own walk on the common long before that - and before the time that the killing is believed to have taken place"

 
  • #865
Joining Websleuths last month has rekindled my interest in True Crime so I ordered a few books and a couple touched on the Jill Dando case.

Jonathan Levi and Emma French's new book Inside Belmarsh has a brief chapter on Barry George.

They assume he is innocent but a fellow (anonymous) prisoner had some interesting observations. They were in the same escort to the Central Criminal Court when BG's conviction was overturned:

""The public perception of him is that he is a slow individual, a simplistic man with mental health issues, not very articulate and with no academic skills. This however is wrong."

This former Belmarsh inmate was impressed by George's intellect and recalled that "his cell was full of law books. Books that are complex to read and understand for the average person."...

"He even took out civil claims against the prison service, legislations which in themselves, are a very complex procedure. To do this one needs to be aware of laws and procedures. George knew them all. This was not the behaviour of someone with limited intellect or ability."

George was meticulous and examined even seemingly trivial things with great care, according to our source.

"Such was his legal mind that one day, when he was given a television, he refused to sign the standard common compact required to receive it...George refused to sign until he had read it thoroughly and studied the terms." (pp 257-258)

He added that 99.9 % per cent of prisoners signed immediately.

I do not know for certain that BG killed jill Dando. But I do know that those who say he COULDN'T have done it because of his "low IQ" are entirely wrong. He was and is a lot smarter than his supporters make him out to be.

Another volume I bought is David Wilson's latest tome Murder At Home. His books are a lot better than his toe-curling TV appearances, especially those with "Mils". His theoretical ideas are interesting. But when you get down to the granular level I find much to disagree with him about. He is a systematizer and tends to try to fit criminals and crimes into boxes, whereas in fact all such cases are unique.

The first chapter is titled 'The Door and the Doorstep'. He describes this as a "liminal" space. Liminality is an idea which he acknowledges originally came from ethnographer and social thinker Arnold Van Gennep in his 1909 meisterwerk The Rites Of Passage. Ah. Takes me right back to my days as an undergraduate in the late '70s studying social anthropology.

"Liminal is a word for the in-between. It describes states, times, spaces, etc., that exist at a point of change—a metaphorical threshold—as in “the liminal zone between sleep and wakefulness.” (Merriam Webster)

He discusses Jill Dando's case amongst others and he is convinced it was a hitman what done it. A Serbian hitman in all probability at that. He says as much in that dreadful Mark Williams-Thomas doc on YouTube. He takes his cue from Michael Mansfield and calls the MO "sophisticated". He admits the Serbian hitman theory might seem far-fetched but says "there was in fact a history of Serbian hitmen working within Britain". But he only gives one example, and that is the shooting of a Croatian man living in Scotland, Nikola Stedul.

The attacker was Vinko Sindicic, "a notorious assassin linked with a number of killings across Europe, [who] had come to Britain using a fake passport, hiding in amongst ordinary Yugoslav football fans gearing up for a World Cup Qualifier at Hampden."


Wilson writes "...it doesn't seem far fetched to link Jill's death to a Serbian hitman, given that one had been active on British soil in the decade before she had been murdered..." (p38)

Really? One example more than ten years before? And on a fellow Yugoslav (Stedul was a Croatian separatist)? Seems a big stretch to me. Unprecedented to kill a UK citizen over a TV appeal.

(Wilson also discusses the case of Alistair Wilson, who was mysteriously shot on his doorstep in Scotland in 2004, citing Peter Bleksley's book about the crime. Wilson is convinced it had to do with a contract hit involving a "regional" or even "national" businessman (Alistair was a banker). Unfortunately Bleksley and the police now firmly believe the murder was because of a dispute about some decking in the pub over the road which Alistair objected to. In a recent interview on YouTube Bleksley says the police were going to arrest a man but didn't have enough hard evidence and he knows who the man is, although he wouldn't give the name. An hour or so searching online enabled me to find out who this guy is and his criminal background. I discuss this all on the Websleuths thread about Alistair, who I confess I had never heard of when I woke up yesterday morning. Fascinating case!)

In conclusion David Wilson says that Jill's and Alistair's murders were "a form of retaliation and revenge". Hmmm. Not remotely convinced.

Bleksley has obviously now moved on from his hitman theory in the Alistair Wilson case as the criminal he suspects is an alcoholic wreck and has in his words had a terrible life. But Wilson had discussed hitmen in an earlier book My Life With Murderers and even come up with a typology of them - the Novice, the Dilettante, the Journeyman and the Master. Again this classification seems a little arbitrary and ambiguous. What is the point of it outside the academic's love of schemata?"

But he does speak to a hitman about the Dando murder. He asks why you would carry out a hit on someone's doorstep and the bloke says it is the element of surprise when they are fumbling for their keys, concentrating on their door." If you "go into their house "you might leave forensics, if you're on the doorstep bang - simple." (p194) If people hear a noise they might think it's a car backfiring or a tyre bursting.

Wilson asks the hitman if he thinks it is significant that Dando was only shot once in the head, not twice. He replies "I do yeah, I mean if I was asked to comment on that I'd say the gun probably failed to go off the second time. It was very unusual ammunition as well, homemade ammunition, so you can easily get a misfire round. So I would imagine it was supposed to be two...that's...You know...that's the way to do it, two shots." (p195)

But he still thinks it was a professional hit, because it was a doorstep killing and she was shot in the head."

Surely there's a contradiction in there? A professional hit when any professional would fire more than once and this fellow used dodgy homemade ammunition with the possibility of a dangerous misfire.

Again, not convinced David!
 
  • #866
A professional hitman with a converted gun, who scurries off on foot.........Even a pushbike would have been better.

And how did the professional hitman know that JD would visit her house that day?
 
  • #867
I hadn't heard of "running man" at all until I saw the Netflix doc. I guess LE were satisfied with JS's explanation but no, I can't recall any witnesses being asked to identify him. He does seem to be a colourful character.

Another thing I noticed regarding Running Man was that, according to the Netflix doc (so maybe unreliable - who knows?) Running Man was unusually tall. I don't remember him being described thus by any of the witnesses. Bus Stop Man's recall of Sweating Man produced the photofit, so he must've had a pretty good look, but according to him, Sweating Man was around 5'10". Not unusually tall.

Not sure what happened to Trilby Man either, or Agitated Man standing on corner minutes before the shooting. Were they identified and ruled out I wonder?

Difficult to put a number on it but around ten months into the investigation Hamish Campbell told the Guardian: “There were 23 sightings yet none of these men have contacted us. Why not? As I sit here in the middle of this storm, I think that is pretty extraordinary.”


Perhaps they whittled that number down by the time of BG’s first trial in 2001 but even if we’re being generous and we halve it that’s still a hell of a lot of people unaccounted for. That said I don’t knock the police for this - if JD had been murdered just a few years later they’d have had a far easier time solving it, and today with technology everywhere it’d be a walk in the park.
 
  • #868
But I do know that those who say he COULDN'T have done it because of his "low IQ" are entirely wrong. He was and is a lot smarter than his supporters make him out to be.

How do you know this?

Even if I allow myself to be charitable and assume you must have some medical qualifications in order to make this statement, how much time have you spent assessing Barry George?
 
  • #869
Where did GUB state he saw the man running fast towards him? He
When he said he saw the man running away from Jill's house. To notice the man was running away from no 29 and not just running along the street GUB had to look up the street to the direction the man was running from.
 
  • #870
2024
''Fingerprints on a traffic light post grabbed by a “crazy” man as he sprinted away from the Jill Dando murder scene were never identified.
We can reveal they were taken by police after a dog walker described seeing the runner narrowly escape being hit by a car.
He dashed in front of moving traffic just yards from the Crimewatch presenter’s home, where one of her neighbours had seen the gunman running away.
The dog walker said he crossed Gowan Avenue, where Jill lived, at the junction of the Fulham Palace Road at around 11.37am after placing a bet at a bookies.''
1756220048640.webp

''A witness said he was baffled when the man failed to board either a 74 or a 220, the only buses that stopped there. He did get on a No74 moments later. Detectives suspected he may have been using his phone to set up a rendezvous with the Range Rover driver away from the scene.''
 
  • #871
When he said he saw the man running away from Jill's house. To notice the man was running away from no 29 and not just running along the street GUB had to look up the street to the direction the man was running from.
Wasn't Jill's house directly opposite GUBs though? Why would GUB need to look up the street if so?

What I find odd about GUBs sighting is that he saw this man running away, thought he was "up to no good" and yet did not go to Jill's gate to investigate further. Had he done so, he'd have found Jill's body. It would be another 15 minutes approx before she was found by HD.
 
  • #872

Yet another Jill Dando doc!
 
  • #873
If that's your idea of "running towards" then I don't see much point in further discussion on the point. Talk about torturing the English language. The killer was running AWAY!
GUB said the killer was running away from Jill's house. The second witness, RH, Jill's next door neighbour, said the man was walking towards the Fulham Palace Road.

Now, open kindly the map and look at the Gowan Avenue. The no 30 is slightly closer to the Fulham Palace Road than no 29. Yet these two houses are very close to each other. Now, if GUB, walking out of his door looked right and saw a man, running down the street, would he describe the scene as "a man running away from Jill's door"? I do not think so. He had to look straight and slightly to the left, to see the man near no 29, to make that mental connection.

Still, GUB's and RH's statements clash very hard. Gowan Avenue is not particularly lengthy, according to Google Maps from the no 29 to the Fulham Palace Road it's 0,2 mi, or 322 meters. If we combine these two statements the man walked briskly for some seconds (RH) then before GUB left his flat he stsrted to sprint, slowing down only when he heard the clang of GUB's gate. Considering GUB was pretty old at this time, closing the door, getting down the steps and to the gate took him sone time, enough for a young sprinting man to get almost to the other end of the Gowan Avenue, or at least out of GUB's sight, especially if, as you postulate, he was already past GUB's house when GUB spotted him.
 
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  • #874

Yet another Jill Dando doc!

Finally got around to watching this, first half was a bit ‘by numbers’ I thought but fine on the whole, then it got weird for a bit - around the 26 minute mark there’s footage from 1999/2000 of a reporter discussing the 192.com lead, but this lead later reached a dead end when police tracked down the person who was responsible for finding JD’s address using 192, and it turned out to be a guy in Wales who was just harmlessly experimenting with the website. There’s no mention of that in the documentary though, and instead the 192 footage segues into footage and a discussion of Barry George, the inference being that the two were in some way related.

Then they merge George’s face with the e-fit, but of course the e-fit was based on the description of the sweating man given by the witness who was standing at the bus stop, and this sweating man wasn’t Barry George.

Then at around 29 minutes Geoffrey Wansell says, “they found photographs [in George’s flat] of television personalities including a great deal about Jill Dando”, which is odd because they didn’t find a single photo (developed or otherwise) of JD in George’s flat, and of the 800 newspapers and magazines that George had hoarded only eight contained any reference to JD.

The documentary did a decent job towards the end of exploring the weakness of the gunshot residue/firearms discharge residue evidence though, which can’t always be said for these sorts of productions. Definitely not the worst Dando documentary but sadly still riddled with enough inaccuracies to make you roll your eyes on a fairly regular basis.
 
  • #875
  • #876
It would be quite interesting if BG's fan club were to try to argue that he can't have killed JD because he was raping a child elsewhere at the time.

I think that's the only "BG didn't do it" argument we've not yet heard!
 
  • #877
It would be quite interesting if BG's fan club were to try to argue that he can't have killed JD because he was raping a child elsewhere at the time.

I think that's the only "BG didn't do it" argument we've not yet heard!
I still believe Barry killed Jill and this new news confirms he is very dangerous to all girls/women not that it wasn't obvious before.
 

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