GUILTY UK - Karen Buckley, 24, Glasgow, Scotland, 12 April 2015 - #1

[Ironside]

Thank you, guessing he drove then. My guess is he whacked her to disorientate and incapacitate her to get her into the car and the rest happened once back at the flat.

Had he whacked her with a spanner to get her into the car the police would have had forensics combing church street.

Why oh why did Karen leave that club? I would really like to know how he convinced her to leave like that. Could he have told her that her friends had just left as she came out of the toilets maybe? But why would she believe him? Is Sanctuary a big place, would it take a while to walk around looking for somebody inside when it was very busy?

It isn't a superclub but it is reasonably big I suppose, not just one room. I was in it about 6 years ago so it may be laid out slightly differently now but there were several different rooms in the club, a dancefloor and a big smoking terrace out the back with seating. You could lose someone but probably find them easily within five minutes.

 

[Finkleyalex]

He'd be an idiot to plead this early in and a solicitor would heavily encourage him not to. Whether he's confessed or not, he's still entitled to a defence. God knows what he will use as a defence but I'm guessing others are right in that he will use the previous car accident.

Lawyer here. Getting a client to plead guilty or stay quiet depends heavily on how much evidence there is against him. In this case there would be CCTV, forensics, potentially witnesses, tyre prints, car ID'd etc. The evidence so far seems to be pretty incriminating - it may be better for him to plead guilty and get a reduced sentence. I'll caveat this by saying I have no idea how Scottish law works but I don't imagine it would be vastly different.

 

[Cappuccino]

Lawyer here. Getting a client to plead guilty or stay quiet depends heavily on how much evidence there is against him. In this case there would be CCTV, forensics, potentially witnesses, tyre prints, car ID'd etc. The evidence so far seems to be pretty incriminating - it may be better for him to plead guilty and get a reduced sentence. I'll caveat this by saying I have no idea how Scottish law works but I don't imagine it would be vastly different.

Its not required for him to make any plea at this stage, nor is it unusual that he hasn't. The fact that he hasn't yet made any plea doesn't give us any clues about what will happen next or whether or not he will plead guilty.

However, I should note that the sub judice rules are stricter in Scotland than in the US, and bearing in mind what was pointed out by Ayrshirelass in post 881, we should be careful how much speculation is engaged in.

 

[ChuckieD]

Had he whacked her with a spanner to get her into the car the police would have had forensics combing church street.


It isn't a superclub but it is reasonably big I suppose, not just one room. I was in it about 6 years ago so it may be laid out slightly differently now but there were several different rooms in the club, a dancefloor and a big smoking terrace out the back with seating. You could lose someone but probably find them easily within five minutes.

It wouldn't necessarily break the skin or bleed enough for there to be blood splatter but it would take her by surprise and make her pretty unable to overcome a huge bloke trying to shove her in a car.

Thanks for the info on the club, helps picture the situation

 

[ChuckieD]

Lawyer here. Getting a client to plead guilty or stay quiet depends heavily on how much evidence there is against him. In this case there would be CCTV, forensics, potentially witnesses, tyre prints, car ID'd etc. The evidence so far seems to be pretty incriminating - it may be better for him to plead guilty and get a reduced sentence. I'll caveat this by saying I have no idea how Scottish law works but I don't imagine it would be vastly different.

Wouldn't it be incredibly dumb to accept guilt officially so soon, surely a lawyer would want to try and see if there is something he can use first like brain injury, mental health issue before his client pleads guilty to murder?

 

[Bravo]

Pertaining to posts above regarding Contempt of Court Act. Would that not just be directed to news outlets? I have never heard of folks not being able to "speculate" opines on a forum. I live in Ont. Canada and our Court System is akin to the British system. Court attire. Conduct in the Courtroom etc etc. Our cases are subject to a publication ban until Trial but never are folks unable to discuss on a forum such as this. Confused Canuck????

 

[skibaboo]

https://www.facebook.com/GreaterGlasgowPoliceDivision/posts/1583269308577918

Though a long time lurker and very infrequent poster I'm not sure of the protocol here on things like this but I thought I should post this here:

Please note important advice from the Crown Office with regards the Pacteau case:
"Please note the Pacteau case is now live under Contempt of Court Act and nothing should be published that might prejudice the case."

If I'm breaking any rules I apologise.

Not at all and thank you for posting. IIRC it was the same in the Mikaeel Kular case. All photos of his 'mother' were blurred out in MSM, I think it will be the same here. I don't think we can post photos of AP now and we should refer to him as AP (initials only) BUT I'm not entirely sure. So maybe a Mod can step in and clarify. I'm sure we can still sleuth though, as long as we adhere to the TOS re this case.

 

[NSS]

If he was hanging around the group of girls, chatting or dancing etc, they may have discussed going to eat or getting a taxi or a whole host of 'later' plans.

If I went to the bathroom and a guy who I knew (even if only from that night) said - the girls said they are making their way to 'a taxi rank or pick up point', a restaurant etc, I may have left with him to meet my mates. No-one thinks that someone who acts so normally (or even a tad off in a drinking situation) is going to hurt them, and I may have felt safer walking with him to the meet point than walking alone.
All just possibilities.

 

[ChuckieD]

If he was hanging around the group of girls, chatting or dancing etc, they may have discussed going to eat or getting a taxi or a whole host of 'later' plans.

If I went to the bathroom and a guy who I knew (even if only from that night) said - the girls said they are making their way to 'a taxi rank or pick up point', a restaurant etc, I may have left with him to meet my mates. No-one thinks that someone who acts so normally (or even a tad off in a drinking situation) is going to hurt them, and I may have felt safer walking with him to the meet point than walking alone.
All just possibilities.

Yes, that's what I was getting at. That sounds quite plausible to me. Obviously, we don't know if the girls were talking to AP and whoever (if anybody) he was with but if she was even vaguely familiar to her it may have been a better option than catching her friends up on her own. She doesn't look uncomfortable to me in the CCTV, just nippy.

 

[Ayrshirelass]

Pertaining to posts above regarding Contempt of Court Act. Would that not just be directed to news outlets? I have never heard of folks not being able to "speculate" opines on a forum. I live in Ont. Canada and our Court System is akin to the British system. Court attire. Conduct in the Courtroom etc etc. Our cases are subject to a publication ban until Trial but never are folks unable to discuss on a forum such as this. Confused Canuck????

Bravo you are most likely correct, I wasn't sure and posted the above just in case it was relevant - better safe than sorry I guess.

 

[Cappuccino]

Pertaining to posts above regarding Contempt of Court Act. Would that not just be directed to news outlets? I have never heard of folks not being able to "speculate" opines on a forum. I live in Ont. Canada and our Court System is akin to the British system. Court attire. Conduct in the Courtroom etc etc. Our cases are subject to a publication ban until Trial but never are folks unable to discuss on a forum such as this. Confused Canuck????

For the purposes of Contempt of Court, posting something on the internet is legally the same as publishing it in a newspaper. Obviously what that actually means will vary from jurisidiction to jurisdiction, but seeing as Scotland's rules are stricter than England's, its entirely possible that they are also stricter than Canada's.

Caution is advised.

 

[gregjrichards]

Pertaining to posts above regarding Contempt of Court Act. Would that not just be directed to news outlets? I have never heard of folks not being able to "speculate" opines on a forum. I live in Ont. Canada and our Court System is akin to the British system. Court attire. Conduct in the Courtroom etc etc. Our cases are subject to a publication ban until Trial but never are folks unable to discuss on a forum such as this. Confused Canuck????

I'm a member of the digitalspy message board based in the UK and normally the rules there are we are not allowed to discuss a case once a suspect has been arrested. Websleuths is based in the USA so obviously we must abide by the rules here but I don't think we could be arrested for contempt of court for discussing the case here. I wouldn't post any information here from inside sources like the police or any witnesses though. Anything that is in mainstream UK media should be ok to discuss. This is just my opinion maybe a moderator here can advise us please.

I have messaged a moderator to ask if they can please give us guidance just to be safe I don't want any of us getting into any bother.

 

[Ironside]

It wouldn't necessarily break the skin or bleed enough for there to be blood splatter but it would take her by surprise and make her pretty unable to overcome a huge bloke trying to shove her in a car.

It seems dreadfully stupid to pre-plan whacking a woman on a busy street over the head with a spanner and be able to do it without any blood and then shove her into a car.

If he was hanging around the group of girls, chatting or dancing etc, they may have discussed going to eat or getting a taxi or a whole host of 'later' plans.
If I went to the bathroom and a guy who I knew (even if only from that night) said - the girls said they are making their way to 'a taxi rank or pick up point', a restaurant etc, I may have left with him to meet my mates. No-one thinks that someone who acts so normally (or even a tad off in a drinking situation) is going to hurt them, and I may have felt safer walking with him to the meet point than walking alone.
All just possibilities.

Doubt this was the case. They had only been in the club for an hour, you have to pay money to get into it - I'd guess it's about £7-10 to get in - so doubt they'd leave so quickly. There are not many food places in that particular area to go to at 1am. I think there is even food available in the club, they were selling fast food like burgers in the back terrace when I was there, they might not do it anymore though.

 

[gregjrichards]

Second vigil mass this afternoon for Karen which had a great turnout. I feel so bad for Karen's parents and brothers I can't imagine the pain. Hopefully they will have access to councilling to help them grieve.

"Around 800 people gathered for the vigil in George Square in Glasgow and laid flower bouquets at the public tribute to the 24-year-old.

Karen's parents John and Marian were accompanied by one of her older brothers.

They were greeted by members of the public who hugged and embraced them.

Mrs Buckley was inconsolable as she wept openly during the tribute."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/second-vigil-for-karen-buckley-31152442.html

 

[Bravo]

Bravo you are most likely correct, I wasn't sure and posted the above just in case it was relevant - better safe than sorry I guess.

Thanks for your reply. Yes always best to err on side of caution.

 

[ChuckieD]

It seems dreadfully stupid to pre-plan whacking a woman on a busy street over the head with a spanner and be able to do it without any blood and then shove her into a car.


Doubt this was the case. They had only been in the club for an hour, you have to pay money to get into it - I'd guess it's about £7-10 to get in - so doubt they'd leave so quickly. There are not many food places in that particular area to go to at 1am. I think there is even food available in the club, they were selling fast food like burgers in the back terrace when I was there, they might not do it anymore though.

I know it's a busy area but how busy at that time of night? They're the only two people on that CCTV footage. Let's face it, he's not been the sharpest of pencils thus far!

 

[Ironside]

I know it's a busy area but how busy at that time of night? They're the only two people on that CCTV footage.

Well it's not Times Square or anything but Church Street has the entrance to the Accident and Emergency on it so you wouldn't plan to attack someone on it as there is far too much chance of being seen by someone. Church St leads up to Byres Road which is a busy student area/shopping street. Aside from the nightclub I can't think of anywhere that would be open late in that area aside from a few kebab shops and a 24 hr newsagent. Most pubs in the area would close about 11pm or midnight. There would be people about walking home from pubs or going to parties at 1am, it's unlikely you could walk outside of the nightclub and not see anyone around that time at night. Dumbarton Road and Byres Road are main roads and likely would have a fair few taxis driving along at this time as well.

 

[ellie b]

I know it's a busy area but how busy at that time of night? They're the only two people on that CCTV footage. Let's face it, he's not been the sharpest of pencils thus far!

No...he doesn't appear to be the brightest spark.

 

[gregjrichards]

Its not required for him to make any plea at this stage, nor is it unusual that he hasn't. The fact that he hasn't yet made any plea doesn't give us any clues about what will happen next or whether or not he will plead guilty.

However, I should note that the sub judice rules are stricter in Scotland than in the US, and bearing in mind what was pointed out by Ayrshirelass in post 881, we should be careful how much speculation is engaged in.

A suspect in Scotland is not required to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty until the preliminary hearing.

"5. WHAT HAPPENS AT A PRELIMINARY HEARING?

A Preliminary Hearing can be considered to be a pre-trial hearing. When the case calls in court the accused will be present and will require to enter a plea to each charge – either guilty or not guilty.

If the accused is pleading Not Guilty to the charge or charges the Court will then be advised about the state of preparation of the case. The Crown will tell the court about matters such as the number of witnesses likely to be called to give evidence and the likely length of the trial. The Court will also be told of any evidence that has been agreed between the Crown and Defence – usually this covers routine matters and often means that a number of witnesses can be excused from having to attend court to give evidence about matters that are not in dispute.

The Defence will also advise the court of the preparation of their case and whether or not any special defences are to be relied upon eg Self Defence, Alibi or Incrimination (the court is advised of this before the Not Guilty plea is recorded). If the Defence has defence witnesses that they wish to give evidence at the trial, the court must be advised of this."

http://www.unlockthelaw.co.uk/serious-crime-defence-high-court-advocates-scotland.html

 

[ChuckieD]

Well it's not Times Square or anything but Church Street has the entrance to the Accident and Emergency on it so you wouldn't plan to attack someone on it as there is far too much chance of being seen by someone. Church St leads up to Byres Road which is a busy student area/shopping street. Aside from the nightclub I can't think of anywhere that would be open late in that area aside from a few kebab shops and a 24 hr newsagent. Most pubs in the area would close about 11pm or midnight. There would be people about walking home from pubs or going to parties at 1am, it's unlikely you could walk outside of the nightclub and not see anyone around that time at night. Dumbarton Road and Byres Road are main roads and likely would have a fair few taxis driving along at this time as well.

Thanks. I have been to Glasgow and went to King Tuts for a gig. It seemed very busy in the area when we went for pre-drinks. Pubs were packed but on the way back to my friends place (Berryknowes Road, I think it was?) it was pretty quiet people wise. We went to a huge park while I was there aswell actually. I wonder if it was the same one.