VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Ruthbullock]

The definition of murder is an act that causes harm that could result in death. how do you exclude asphyxiation from that? It also says that the perp cannot use the victims actions such as fighting back, as an excuse.

I would imagine CPS couldn't have charged him otherwise

But there is no evidence he asphyxiated her?

 

[NottReds50]

]No idea, I thought it was close by, but the pictures shared form google earth indicate otherwise

Its one of the houses that the gardens back on to Oak rd i believe..about half way down i think ...there have been photos pinpointing it but I can't find them

I think its this one

 

[JosieJo]

Her not reporting him is a big if. A big risk that she is still being examined. That it took a while to get to safety. To call the police

There is also the big risk she's still alive

Why not say he had sex and left her safely

Because with any of his actions ...he hasn't admitted it till he had too

 

[Ruthbullock]

would this be direct enough for manslaughter?

I don’t know for certain, I would just be hoping to convince my fellow jury.

 

[Tortoise]

I believe that would be murder. An act that the perpetrator know would cause harm. No concessions made for things like the victim fighting back or escaping. The perp cannot assume the victim don't struggle.

She did have injuries there is just know way of knowing whether some of them were pre or post mortem.

Some like the lacerations in her mouth caused by blunt trauma were consistent with asphyxiation but the pathologist couldn't say whether pre or post mortem. I struggle to see how they'd occur post mortem but that's my opinion.

She had bruises - one on her arm looking like she'd been gripped which PR wove into story version 5 or 6. Suggesting some truth.

She had other bruising - again cautious about when caused. Including one on her inner thigh which would be difficult to get pre or post mortem by falling.

The pathologist also said there may have been other injuries that had gone with being in water.

And you still have the fact she was in a river that IMO she would struggle to get to in the state she was in with inclines up to it and weeds on the way down.

So I'm not seeing where your disagreement was. I said I thought it would be murder too.

The other minor injuries were not a cause of death.

 

[Newthoughts]

Ensleigh has been turned into flats. I'm not 100% sure if they were still in development or if they were inhabitated at the time this happened. So risk of people hearing him and coming out to investigate if they were living there but also literally beside Bev Road path and high chance of close proximity passers by too.

The part of ORPF he took her is close to the back of houses but they are not right beside it and also have back gardens so doors not instantly accessible. She would have had to go up the road (which is more like a track or tenfoot at that point and quite desolate looking) and round to the front to get to peoples doors or a well lit residential area - but she may not have known this. Although it's very close to her house, unless you were going to the park, or she had friends nearer that end she'd have no call to go there. It's more family homes than student houses.

One thing I often think is that if Libby did give him her address it would have played perfectly for him as it could look like he was driving her there and just missed the turning. Therefore not really alarming her too much until he got to Oak Road. If he had already planned to take his victim there she unwittingly played right into his hands.

They were still in development at the time. First phase completed May 2019. No CCTV. Away from the road. An opportunity but no way of getting rid of the body

 

[Newthoughts]

So I'm not seeing where your disagreement was. I said I thought it would be murder too.

The other minor injuries were not a cause of death.

I agree it's murder. For lots of reasons

 

[Tortoise]

I agree it's murder. For lots of reasons

Would be, not is, if you're agreeing with my post.

 

[Miss_French]

I believe that would be murder. An act that the perpetrator know would cause harm. No concessions made for things like the victim fighting back or escaping. The perp cannot assume the victim don't struggle.

She did have injuries there is just know way of knowing whether some of them were pre or post mortem.

Some like the lacerations in her mouth caused by blunt trauma were consistent with asphyxiation but the pathologist couldn't say whether pre or post mortem. I struggle to see how they'd occur post mortem but that's my opinion.

She had bruises - one on her arm looking like she'd been gripped which PR wove into story version 5 or 6. Suggesting some truth.

She had other bruising - again cautious about when caused. Including one on her inner thigh which would be difficult to get pre or post mortem by falling.

The pathologist also said there may have been other injuries that had gone with being in water.

And you still have the fact she was in a river that IMO she would struggle to get to in the state she was in with inclines up to it and weeds on the way down.

The phrases used were things like 'suspected' bruising and 'could not say I'd it was a genuine bruise'.

Trying to someone from screaming is very different from deliberately asphyxiating someone to stop them screaming.

 

[Cherwell]

I think its this one

Thanks. If that's right, then he parked as far down as he could get. Not near the green shed, but by the park gate.

 

[Cherwell]

They were still in development at the time. First phase completed May 2019. No CCTV. Away from the road. An opportunity but no way of getting rid of the body

If he did kill her, I really don't think it was that premeditated.

 

[Sarahjo]

Tragically I agree

Me too, the most likely and logical option..I just can’t see him throwing her in.. so this is definitely manslaughter though right? She was fleeing from danger?

 

[LastSeenWearing]

These were her two choices other than go into the park
View attachment 282884 View attachment 282885

Looking at these two paths that Libby has a choice of to get away from PR she would be easily seen and there is no place to hide on these paths. If she wanted to hide from PR the park would present more places to do so. Everywhere must have looked scary to poor Libby.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

We saw where he stopped the car and they got out in CCTV- it was shown by a private camera at the rear of the property.

Hamg on, I thought we could see two headlights in the yeast factory footage? Which would suggest he was parked at the end of Beresford ie facing the park, not side on. No?

 

[Ruthbullock]

Hamg on, I thought we could see two headlights in the yeast factory footage? Which would suggest he was parked at the end of Beresford ie facing the park, not side on. No?

No that was one of my first questions- it’s not yeast factory cctv

 

[JosieJo]

Looking at these two paths that Libby has a choice of to get away from PR she would be easily seen and there is no place to hide on these paths. If she wanted to hide from PR the park would present more places to do so. Everywhere must have looked scary to poor Libby.

I agree ...in the dark any way she may have ran from him must have been dark and awful

 

[LastSeenWearing]

They were still in development at the time. First phase completed May 2019. No CCTV. Away from the road. An opportunity but no way of getting rid of the body

Do you think PR set out that night to rape AND murder a woman as you said he would not have raped Libby in the Endsleigh Centre as there was nowhere to dispose of her body? I think he set out to rape that night but not murder. If he did murder her it was to silence her screams not because he set out that night to murder a woman. He was looking to rape I believe.

 

[Fidobell]

Scotland also has the Not Proven verdict which would maybe be a help in this case, I think it’s a - well we know you did something but it’s just not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt so we can’t find you guilty but we don’t want to find you not guilty - but I’m not sure of the point of it as it doesn’t carry any sentence or anything, maybe it helps with the double jeopardy law or something..

I'm Scottish and think the not proven verdict is a cop out . The accused cannot be re- tried so verdict is in fact not guilty. So many high profile cases have returned not proven. IMO because of of the mega experienced high profile defence lawyers . Families left devastated because this age old law . One such case Amanda Duffy from Hamilton , Scotland .Francis Auld found not proven . Local to me.
IMO this verdict helps no- one

 

[NorthernSoul]

Me too, the most likely and logical option..I just can’t see him throwing her in.. so this is definitely manslaughter though right? She was fleeing from danger?

In your scenario I agree, it is. But if PR had left and Libby later fell into the river, would that still be?

 

[ChiCubs2016]

What are peoples thoughts on what the position the jury are in

Struggling on all 3 counts?
Struggling between murder and manslaughter?
Struggling between guilt of causing her death at all and not guilty?

I think your second option. Murder or manslaughter.