VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Loobyloo]

<snipped>

Mr Wright said: “It was some time after they stopped that the defendant emerged from the darkness. At an average walking speed it might take just less than four minutes to cover all of the distance from the defendant’s car to the water.

“At a run – and we know that the defendant was running – no more than about a minute and a half or two minutes at most.”

Pawel Relowicz court updates as butcher stands trial for Libby murder

So now he IS running again?

 

[Ruthbullock]

So now he IS running again?

Nope that’s what the prosecution said and then the witness corrected them.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

I wonder if PR was friends with Lithuanian Mantvydas Daubaras, who got done for rape (as reported in Hull Daily Mail). Seems they have a bit in common in terms of geographic location of the offending and raping very drunk females while wife and baby are at home. I wonder if PR was actually the friend MD had in his car initially, but I assume that would be on a police computer system so there is no link. Even if they did know each other, I am not sure that it would be relevant to Libby.

 

[Winterbells]

I wonder if PR was friends with Lithuanian Mantvydas Daubaras, who got done for rape (as reported in Hull Daily Mail). Seems they have a bit in common in terms of geographic location of the offending and raping very drunk females while wife and baby are at home. I wonder if PR was actually the friend MD had in his car initially, but I assume that would be on a police computer system so there is no link. Even if they did know each other, I am not sure that it would be relevant to Libby.

It's chillingly similar isn't it!

 

[Newthoughts]

If he did kill her, I really don't think it was that premeditated.

Who knows at the start but taking her there shows thinking ahead. That's pre meditation to commit an act of harm that could result in death.

I do think that if you were just going to rape go into Endsleigh Centre. Your victim is going to be found with DNA wherever it happens.

He went straight to the park with no hesitation. No last minute indicating. None of the stuff you see when you're driving behind that hasn't a clue

The darts players spent 10 minutes trying to get Libby's address.

She'd been literally sitting opposite the entrance to Beresford road yet set off towards Wellesley in her attempt to get home. So it doesn't appear to have been her first choice route. Why would that suddenly change in PRs car?

Why not put her in the back seat of the car, just drive somewhere and attack. If she's going to report you DNA is going to be found anyway

 

[Newthoughts]

The phrases used were things like 'suspected' bruising and 'could not say I'd it was a genuine bruise'.

Trying to someone from screaming is very different from deliberately asphyxiating someone to stop them screaming.

Yes but they both count as murder.

 

[Newthoughts]

Me too, the most likely and logical option..I just can’t see him throwing her in.. so this is definitely manslaughter though right? She was fleeing from danger?

Fleeing from danger is included in murder. The suspect can't expect to victim not to react and death result from that reaction.

The experts have said she'd have struggled to run away. She's drunk and hypothermic. She's not going to get from him easily.

She'd not going to get to the river easily. In her state every small obstacle - inclines up to it, weeds, mud - is going to be major to her. Not him

You have to account for physical and cognitive differences at that point. Large bulky sober male - reactions improved by adrenaline. Vulnerable drunk hypothermic female reactions slowed by alcohol and hypothermia

 

[Newthoughts]

Do you think PR set out that night to rape AND murder a woman as you said he would not have raped Libby in the Endsleigh Centre as there was nowhere to dispose of her body? I think he set out to rape that night but not murder. If he did murder her it was to silence her screams not because he set out that night to murder a woman. He was looking to rape I believe.

I think both those count as murder.

But why go to the park? Endsleigh Centre or park your victim will be found anyway.

Look at his previous crimes and the judges response to his defences claim they were opportunistic

 

[Newthoughts]

In your scenario I agree, it is. But if PR had left and Libby later fell into the river, would that still be?

Unless he left her alive and conscious really close to the river, I honestly cannot see how it would happen. I really can't see her getting there.

She was already falling down and lying the snow when less cold.

He doesn't use that option in his defence. The defence option is he leaves her outside.

I live on a slight incline. I ran too far yesterday (by my own very low standards - it wasn't far by most people's).

I got to a point where I just couldn't physically manage to run anymore and then couldn't even stagger the last little incline home. Had to ring husband 2 minutes away to bring biscuits and help. Embarrassing and pathetic but my legs were shaking - no reserves. I'd have staggered home because it was just hitting that point - but I was struggling

Libby's temperature was estimated at 35. Not yet dangerous but out of normal range and her body would certainly be diverting resources to addressing it and preventing going lower

So I cannot begin to imagine what state she'd be getting too by the time the rape happened. Especially with her body having to counteract the opposing effects of alcohol and hypothermia. She'd be exhausted..

So either he's taken her closer to the river and has lied. In which case his lies are telling me something

Or she gets so far falling and stumbling and decides to have a fatal rest.

 

[tigerowl]

I think it's far more likely that the reason he didn't do it in Endsleigh is because he knew he would have been seen following her in on CCTV.

He mentions those cameras multiple times.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Definitely a valid scenario but a few questions.

Witnesses heard screams in the park and others heard her shouting even before she met PR, so she was inclined to shout that night. Why did she not scream before entering ORPF?

Some people question her ability to make it to the river from outside the park because of her drunken state, she was described as being very very drunk and in a state. Also if she did choose to run into the park herself how did she avoid running into the open section and being spotted on the factory cctv overlooking part of the river bank, considering she ran in the other direction (near the playground) how did she not fall in the large pond instead?

Also if this was the case and she fell into the river accidentally, and PR knew this had happened, why wouldn’t he just admit she fell in the river and possibility admit the rape as this would have meant a lesser jail sentence than being trialled for both rape and murder.

Good questions! I would suggest it could be possible that Libby did not scream before entering the park either because she was semi-conscious at that point or possibly, if she was aware as soon as they stopped that something was wrong, PR put his hand over her mouth during that time and during the assault.
The question of why she did not show up on CCTV in the park would apply to PR equally - we do not see someone carrying someone towards the river or chasing someone. At some point we know Libby entered the water but the CCTV did not pick this up.
I think if PR was anywhere near Libby when she went into the water he would know that he would be accused of having caused that so he would state that he was not anywhere near her.

This is what I think:
LIKELY: PR did take Libby into the park, assaulted her there and then or later put her body in the river. He says he was not in the park to distance himself from the location of the assault.
LESS LIKELY: PR assaulted Libby at the shed and then chased her across the park where she fell into the river.
LESS LIKLEY: PR assaulted Libby at the shed, Libby broke away and ran into the park, PR maybe following a few steps but then leaves and Libby, distraught somehow falls into the river after he has gone.
VERY UNLIKELY: Libby threw herself into the river deliberately.
Would this give us murder for scenario 1, manslaughter for 2, debatable manslaughter/not guilty for 3, not guilty for 4? This may be why the defence seemed to concentrate on 4. Because as I see it there are credible options other than murder and even manslaughter, in the absence of other evidence possibly seen by the jury I can't say guilty.

 

[Newthoughts]

I think it's far more likely that the reason he didn't do it in Endsleigh is because he knew he would have been seen following her in on CCTV.

He mentions those cameras multiple times.

So not an impulsive rape on the spot but one where he's considered the risks?

 

[tigerowl]

So not an impulsive rape on the spot but one where he's considered the risks?

Yes, not impulsive. There was nothing impulsive about his behaviour that night. He spent hours looking for victims. Libby was his perfect opportunity.

Where you and I differ is on the murder count. There is plenty of evidence to prove that he is a calculating rapist who plans his activities. Absolutely no evidence that proves he murdered Libby

 

[JosieJo]

Good questions! I would suggest it could be possible that Libby did not scream before entering the park either because she was semi-conscious at that point or possibly, if she was aware as soon as they stopped that something was wrong, PR put his hand over her mouth during that time and during the assault.
The question of why she did not show up on CCTV in the park would apply to PR equally - we do not see someone carrying someone towards the river or chasing someone. At some point we know Libby entered the water but the CCTV did not pick this up.
I think if PR was anywhere near Libby when she went into the water he would know that he would be accused of having caused that so he would state that he was not anywhere near her.

This is what I think:
LIKELY: PR did take Libby into the park, assaulted her there and then or later put her body in the river. He says he was not in the park to distance himself from the location of the assault.
LESS LIKELY: PR assaulted Libby at the shed and then chased her across the park where she fell into the river.
LESS LIKLEY: PR assaulted Libby at the shed, Libby broke away and ran into the park, PR maybe following a few steps but then leaves and Libby, distraught somehow falls into the river after he has gone.
VERY UNLIKELY: Libby threw herself into the river deliberately.
Would this give us murder for scenario 1, manslaughter for 2, debatable manslaughter/not guilty for 3, not guilty for 4? This may be why the defence seemed to concentrate on 4. Because as I see it there are credible options other than murder and even manslaughter, in the absence of other evidence possibly seen by the jury I can't say guilty.

I agree this is the problem..because there are multiple options....even if they are in various orders of likeliness..it means we can't be sure

 

[Newthoughts]

A calculating rapist who didn't think about what to do with the evidence afterwards?

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree this is the problem..because there are multiple options....even if they are in various orders of likeliness..it means we can't be sure

You'll never be sure. You have limited options. Use all the evidence to hand to determine the most likely and test it against the next most likely. The jury must consider all the evidence cos no one piece is sufficient

 

[Pinkizzy]

Who knows at the start but taking her there shows thinking ahead. That's pre meditation to commit an act of harm that could result in death.

He was seen near the park on the day or a few days before Libby's murder. He had planned to go there with someone, sometime in the future.

I do think that if you were just going to rape go into Endsleigh Centre. Your victim is going to be found with DNA wherever it happens.

He went straight to the park with no hesitation. No last minute indicating. None of the stuff you see when you're driving behind that hasn't a clue

The darts players spent 10 minutes trying to get Libby's address.

She'd been literally sitting opposite the entrance to Beresford road yet set off towards Wellesley in her attempt to get home. So it doesn't appear to have been her first choice route. Why would that suddenly change in PRs car?

Why not put her in the back seat of the car, just drive somewhere and attack. If she's going to report you DNA is going to be found anyway

 

[JosieJo]

You'll never be sure. You have limited options. Use all the evidence to hand to determine the most likely and test it against the next most likely. The jury must consider all the evidence cos no one piece is sufficient

You have to "be sure" you can't convict otherwise ...that is the uk standard ..you can't convict because its the "most likely" scenario

I disagree that you can't ever be sure ...im sure he raped her but there are no witnesses or cctv ....why am I sure ? Because of the evidence.

 

[C.greek]

Good questions! I would suggest it could be possible that Libby did not scream before entering the park either because she was semi-conscious at that point or possibly, if she was aware as soon as they stopped that something was wrong, PR put his hand over her mouth during that time and during the assault.
The question of why she did not show up on CCTV in the park would apply to PR equally - we do not see someone carrying someone towards the river or chasing someone. At some point we know Libby entered the water but the CCTV did not pick this up.
I think if PR was anywhere near Libby when she went into the water he would know that he would be accused of having caused that so he would state that he was not anywhere near her.

This is what I think:
LIKELY: PR did take Libby into the park, assaulted her there and then or later put her body in the river. He says he was not in the park to distance himself from the location of the assault.
LESS LIKELY: PR assaulted Libby at the shed and then chased her across the park where she fell into the river.
LESS LIKLEY: PR assaulted Libby at the shed, Libby broke away and ran into the park, PR maybe following a few steps but then leaves and Libby, distraught somehow falls into the river after he has gone.
VERY UNLIKELY: Libby threw herself into the river deliberately.
Would this give us murder for scenario 1, manslaughter for 2, debatable manslaughter/not guilty for 3, not guilty for 4? This may be why the defence seemed to concentrate on 4. Because as I see it there are credible options other than murder and even manslaughter, in the absence of other evidence possibly seen by the jury I can't say guilty.

I am a bit confused. You go with the 'very unlikely' scenario?

 

[C.greek]

Another little detail I am trying to understand. Someone should have unbuckled Libby's seatbelt because as we saw in cctv (right?) PR buckled her seatbelt when she got in his car. Was Libby capable of unbuckling her seatbelt when they arrived? I think that must have been hard for her in the state she was in. So i don't think it is likely Libby stormed out of his car. Which could bring us to the scenario she was incapable of storming out... what happened then?