UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Cherwell]

I woner why we haven't heard from the other two witnesses to screaming
"Other witnesses heard screams
Relowicz was told about two other statements from people living in Claremont Avenue.
He was told the two witnesses described how they had their bedroom windows open and heard screams coming from the playing fields.
The officer said: “They said they heard three periods of screaming.”
Relowicz said: “I want her to be found. I’ve never been so honest in my life like I have been like this.
“I have said everything.”
Pawel Relowicz told police he 'wanted Libby to be found' - trial

It's a real shame we don't have anyone in court. I get the impression that the reporting is quite sparse and I'm not sure we're hearing everything.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

The only person who can ever be 100% sure is PR. I think for the jury they are asked to be certain beyond all reasonable doubt.

For me I think the whole picture that has been built up of that evening, his lies, the expert evidence and the previous convictions, listed in court taken along side the fact I'm finding it difficult to come up with reasonable alternatives to her ending up in the river that sound more probable means I think I believe he did it beyond all reasonable doubts.

Where I've been faced with doubts about the cause of death I personally have to judge whether those doubts see reasonable. From the circumstances given I think asphyxiation more probable because I cannot see how she would get into that river at that particular location herself. And the act of rape is consistent with asphyxiation.

That's my opinion.

Literally my biggest doubts are over what is possible in that time frame. Its a looòng time since I've been to ORPF but I am familiar with the area, how it was laid out by the prosecution 4 mins to walk to river, 1.5/2 mins to run back, that leaves a maximum of 2 minutes to rape/murder and dispose of a body. Im about there with rape possible murder simultaneously but I'm seeing at least 2 minutes to dispose of someone in the river, I don't know, that's where my doubts all creep in without thinking of ANY alternative scenario which as of yet has not been presented but also given that however unlikely it may seem, drowning couldn't be conclusively ruled out.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Dumb question- but I know they have said the prosecutions evidence is finished- but is anyone else surprised at the lack of forensic evidence that has been presented. The police spent many days at the playing fields. Is that the complete and final end of the evidence to get a conviction?I get he’s tangled up in a web of lies that will hopefully get him found guilty, but as far as we know, they haven’t even shown the footage of the car arriving and leaving, nor does there seem to have been any confirmation that the running man was indeed PR. Being reminded of those photos of the searches in the playing fields and around the edge of the river is the only thing that made me contemplate the fact we didn’t hear about any definitive evidence. We didn’t hear about vast searches of the playing fields only very specific areas and then some other random further out areas were searched very thoroughly- I wonder what intel led them to doing those searches.

 

[Cherwell]

But we are overwhelmingly insisting that his sexual offending is intrinsically linked together with Libby. By saying he separated some episodes of his sexual offending from others, we are creating a disconnect for him with Libby and those other offences.

My apologies, I have struggled to word this clearly, hopefully you follow.

No, sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at.

Whatever he did to Libby, even if he only raped her and abandoned her, it was far more serious than his flashing, Peeping Tom and petty theft activities. I'm saying he may have felt he could explain away the bag of vibrators etc ("not mine", "those are my wife's" or whatever) but he wanted to make sure that there was no trace of Libby in his car so that he couldn't be linked to her. He failed there, of course. But it suggests that he knew what had happened to her.

 

[tigerowl]

I have been thinking this too. I am not sure, apart from their opening statement, what evidence they have put forward in support of the murder charge. There is no conclusive cause of death from the medical people and nothing from them that seems to evidence him by the river or forensically on his clothes/car etc.

Surely, there must be more than this and it hasn't been reported?

 

[Mommysleuth11]

There was a lot of speculation on these threads really early on that perhaps something had happened and Libby had somehow run and fallen in the river, I was steadfast against that even been a possibility, convinced beyond convinced that PR was alone responsible but that indeed she had ended up in the river by his hand. I feel like now, because of the timings I may have done a U turn. I really don't WANT to think this way, it feels like a sort of cognitive dissonance.
As said i still feel that whatever, he is ultimately responsible so I suppose its really just splitting hairs. I just kinda wish he had been there even a few minutes longer?

 

[Dotta]

Dumb question- but I know they have said the prosecutions evidence is finished- but is anyone else surprised at the lack of forensic evidence that has been presented. The police spent many days at the playing fields. Is that the complete and final end of the evidence to get a conviction?I get he’s tangled up in a web of lies that will hopefully get him found guilty, but as far as we know, they haven’t even shown the footage of the car arriving and leaving, nor does there seem to have been any confirmation that the running man was indeed PR. Being reminded of those photos of the searches in the playing fields and around the edge of the river is the only thing that made me contemplate the fact we didn’t hear about any definitive evidence. We didn’t hear about vast searches of the playing fields only very specific areas and then some other random further out areas were searched very thoroughly- I wonder what intel led them to doing those searches.

Exactly!!! Besides the man running out of the park was wearing a kind of leather jacket according to a witness. Was PR wearing such a jacket?

 

[Mommysleuth11]

The RNLI evidence was that Libby when recovered was wearing a bra type top, black skirt and trainers. Again I know we don't necessarily have all the information due to how and what exactly is reported. I was however surprised that if indeed she was found without her top and Jacket (it seems much more likely to me that shoes would be "washed away" than a jacket or top for example), that there has been no mention of if any missing clothes were ever recovered.

Sorry to jump backwards and if this has already been covered.

 

[Cherwell]

Exactly!!! Besides the man running out of the park was wearing a kind of leather jacket according to a witness. Was PR wearing such a jacket?

Where was that reported? Which witness?

 

[Vermont24]

Does the third visit later that night not allay any issues around timings that people may have?

 

[Newthoughts]

Literally my biggest doubts are over what is possible in that time frame. Its a looòng time since I've been to ORPF but I am familiar with the area, how it was laid out by the prosecution 4 mins to walk to river, 1.5/2 mins to run back, that leaves a maximum of 2 minutes to rape/murder and dispose of a body. Im about there with rape possible murder simultaneously but I'm seeing at least 2 minutes to dispose of someone in the river, I don't know, that's where my doubts all creep in without thinking of ANY alternative scenario which as of yet has not been presented but also given that however unlikely it may seem, drowning couldn't be conclusively ruled out.

Don't forget he returns to the park at 2.24.

He's large and quite fit. Lots of adrenaline. Libby is quite slender

 

[Newthoughts]

It's a real shame we don't have anyone in court. I get the impression that the reporting is quite sparse and I'm not sure we're hearing everything.

I'm getting the impression we're getting the edited highlights as well. It must be quite hard being the live court reporter.

 

[Cherwell]

as far as we know, they haven’t even shown the footage of the car arriving and leaving, nor does there seem to have been any confirmation that the running man was indeed PR.

This is why I'm wondering if the reporting is patchy. That footage must have been shown to the jury.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Does the third visit later that night not allay any issues around timings that people may have?

For me no, because the problem remains that 1.5 mins each way (at least) again leaves very little time to do anything of substance. Not impossible but for me improbable. Although I can't think of any reason or explanation for him to return.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm getting the impression we're getting the edited highlights as well. It must be quite hard being the live court reporter.

We know they're not paying close enough attention because of the huuuuuge mistake over whether there were signs of asphyxiation.

 

[Dotta]

Where was that reported? Which witness?

Witness who described the shouts. He said sth about the light trousers and a jacket.

 

[Newthoughts]

For me no, because the problem remains that 1.5 mins each way (at least) again leaves very little time to do anything of substance. Not impossible but for me improbable. Although I can't think of any reason or explanation for him to return.

But we know he entered and left the park and raped Libby within that time frame. Subtle asphyxiation during rape also seems feasible. So all that is left is throwing her body into the water.

He's a butcher, he goes to the gym so I could imagine him throwing carcasses about quite easily.

I cannot see how she gets into that river and gets washed away. Without leaving traces of fibres from her clothes. Nor why she stops screaming.

 

[Vera_dci]

This is why I'm wondering if the reporting is patchy. That footage must have been shown to the jury.

As cherwell has pointed out. Are we missing key information in the live trial reporting.

This is still on the hull website unchanged:


At 9.11pm, the Vauxhall Astra is then caught on CCTV heading away from the Cottingham Road and Clough Road junction, northbound along Beverley Road.It then slows and indicated into Beresford Avenue before making its way to Oak Road Playing Fields.

The visit was around three hours before the last known sighting of Libby and prosecutors say it was the first of several visits to the vast expanse that borders the River Hull - the waterway.

CCTV released of Pawel Relowicz on night of Libby Squire's 'murder'

 

[Mommysleuth11]

For me no, because the problem remains that 1.5 mins each way (at least) again leaves very little time to do anything of substance. Not impossible but for me improbable. Although I can't think of any reason or explanation for him to return.

Having said all of this I have never attempted to or had dealings with anyone who has done any of these types of things, so realistically I have no idea how long any of those things would actually take.
Sorry I'm confusing my own self now. I'm just glad I'm not a Juror on any trial such as this, over analytical brain, definitely not helpful.

 

[JosieJo]

Does the third visit later that night not allay any issues around timings that people may have?

4 mins running there and back and moving a body is just as tight as the other timeline for me