GUILTY UK - Nicole Smallman, 27 & Bibaa Henry 46, Archdeacon's daughters, murdered London park, 7 June 2020

[TizerisT]

I would hope that a bit more information would be released if someone was spotted following them.
Was he tall? Shabbily dressed? What was his ethnicity? What mannerisms made him strange?
These things are important, and I just don't want to see a classic case of LE keeping their cards so close to their chest that people may know him, but make no link due to the minimalist description, and furthermore don't even know what the psycho killer walking among them looks like, in order to be wary.
In his 50's. We need a bit more than that...

 

[dalsglen]

Oh my, I didn't realise they had been stabbed. When I first saw this in the paper I sadly presumed it was likely an overdose.

I hope they catch the culprit asap.

 

[moslym3]

I figure that police know it's not someone known to them because nobody known to them have the injuries they suspect the attacker has based on the blood evidence.

 

[Mrs Marple]

I figure that police know it's not someone known to them because nobody known to them have the injuries they suspect the attacker has based on the blood evidence.

But how can you check everyone known to someone in such a space of time? For two of them? Friends, neighbours, work colleagues, family. Hundreds of people.

Maybe it's as straight forward as no evidence at all of anyone having a grudge against either of them or other reason to to this.

 

[MrsWatson]

Has there been any LE indication that it could have been a robbery gone horribly wrong? Missing or broken jewelry, purses gone or damaged? Phones or other electronics missing?

 

[RobinCAL]

Has there been any LE indication that it could have been a robbery gone horribly wrong? Missing or broken jewelry, purses gone or damaged? Phones or other electronics missing?

I kept getting that impression from their statements about searching the pond and the rubbish depot but it's becoming more likely they are searching for the murder weapon.

 

[Kitkat28]

Apart from the glaringly obvious reasons why the hell is this not national news and plastered over the front page of every paper?

There is probably not a single person of my generation and older who wouldn’t recognise a photo of Rachel Nickell, who effectively died in similar circumstances, yet the only reason I know anything about these poor women is from seeing it on here.

 

[MrsWatson]

Absolutely, @Kitkat28 . I can not like your post enough.

 

[Skigh]

Apart from the glaringly obvious reasons why the hell is this not national news and plastered over the front page of every paper?

There is probably not a single person of my generation and older who wouldn’t recognise a photo of Rachel Nickell, who effectively died in similar circumstances, yet the only reason I know anything about these poor women is from seeing it on here.

Very few murder cases that I have followed recently have featured prominently in the national papers.
When Rachel Nickell was killed DNA testing was not as advanced as it is now.Social media did not exist;there was no cctv or mobile phone data so police had to rely far more on witnesses so needed to make nation wide appeals.
Leah Croucher,a now 20 year old girl ,is still missing,her case has received very little media attention.

 

[Kitkat28]

Very few murder cases that I have followed recently have featured prominently in the national papers.
When Rachel Nickell was killed DNA testing was not as advanced as it is now.Social media did not exist;there was no cctv or mobile phone data so police had to rely far more on witnesses so needed to make nation wide appeals.
Leah Croucher,a now 20 year old girl ,is still missing,her case has received very little media attention.

And yet the possibility of a new suspect in the MM case was all over the papers last week, as well as running to 5 threads on here...

 

[Sarahlou]

And yet the possibility of a new suspect in the MM case was all over the papers last week, as well as running to 5 threads on here...

That case has always had a huge, you could say excessive, amount of publicity. Then papers know a lot of people have an interest in it. Most cases don't get that though.

I do think there should be more about the murders of these two women though.

 

[moslym3]

Has this case had much local news coverage? I think that's what they need right now, especially if they believe the attacker had significant injuries. Everyone nearby needs to keep their eyes out for someone who has new injuries that link up to the timeline of the attack. My instinct is that this is a community-based crime and will be solved by walking the pavement.
When I see reporting in my local news of a woman murdered hundreds of miles away my first reaction is that they are exploiting her for clicks, not necessarily helping find her killer. But I get what you mean, there are other forces at play here that affect coverage.
These poor women were just enjoying a few late-night hours of peace and sisterly bonding. One of my questions is whether the scene indicates that the attacker spent a bit of time with the sisters before the murder (empty beer cans, cigarette buts, half-eaten sandwiches whatever) before the attack or did it look like an ambush? Did he befriend them that evening to gain their trust and then sprung his attack to overcome two women at once? Have the toxicology reports come back? Were the women easier to overpower due to drugs or alcohol?

 

[RobinCAL]

It was said that the sisters were alone by midnight and they died in between half 12 -3 am. With knowing that, I think an ambush seems more likely. Or just the sisters unfortunately being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Al Ka]

Lots of people mentioning here that it must be DNA ruling out attack by someone sisters knew. Well, this is Wembley, Borough of Brent, one of the poorest in the London capital and one with the most death of Covid in the city. While police is great, there is no way DNA was back in 2 days - in Wembley.

I personally lean on that police suspect it was stranger because nobody who attended that birthday party (of those who they know of) had any visible injuries. Frenzied knife attack would leave injuries on suspect's hands even if other party did not fight back. As there was blood trail leading to an exit of park injuries might have been more severe, possibly from other places on the suspect's body as well. (Remember those frenzied knife attackers who accidently slit/stabbed themselves too? Happened on few occasions).

I am waiting to hear on reports if it was few stab wounds or big amount like we saw in some very rare cases...

Someone mentioned here that possible motive could be racial attack. Bear in mind that about 80% of Wembley's population is black, so I personally do not think this was the motive in this case.

Party started around 7pm. As this was the birthday party, very likely some amount of alcohol was involved. Some food, maybe cake and also knife/s to cut it.

Some people were probably arriving at different times and also leaving at different times. Most of the people would be probably leaving park just before it was completly dark. What time is it getting dark now here? 10ish - 11pm? It seems last known people left the party just before midnight, 5 long hours after party first started.

Also, if you ever hosted picknick or other parties, there is always some guest/s which stays behind, helps you clean up, pack up and than walks out together with you. Even more likely happening if it is your own birthday party.

I also personally don't believe two women would stay behind, alone, after everyone left, in any of the London's parks. After midnight? In Wembley? No way.

With regards to blood trail leading to an exit of the park 5 min away. Again, this was not done by DNA but simply ruled out to be theirs due to position of their bodies where they were both found in the park. They never made it to the exit.

Does this all above rule out for you someone who was at some point at that party - invited or not, drinking for 3 to 5 hours? I dont mind what news headlines say, but so far it is still no for me. Or police did not find all who attended or someone somewhere in those statements might be telling porky pies, covering for someone.

(All above just in my humble opinion and subject to change)

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Lots of people mentioning here that it must be DNA ruling out attack by someone sisters knew. Well, this is Wembley, Borough of Brent, one of the poorest in the London capital and one with the most death of Covid in the city. While police is great, there is no way DNA was back in 2 days - in Wembley.

I personally lean on that police suspect it was stranger because nobody who attended that birthday party (of those who they know of) had any visible injuries. Frenzied knife attack would leave injuries on suspect's hands even if other party did not fight back. As there was blood trail leading to an exit of park injuries might have been more severe, possibly from other places on the suspect's body as well. (Remember those frenzied knife attackers who accidently slit/stabbed themselves too? Happened on few occasions).

I am waiting to hear on reports if it was few stab wounds or big amount like we saw in some very rare cases...

Someone mentioned here that possible motive could be racial attack. Bear in mind that about 80% of Wembley's population is black, so I personally do not think this was the motive in this case.

Party started around 7pm. As this was the birthday party, very likely some amount of alcohol was involved. Some food, maybe cake and also knife/s to cut it.

Some people were probably arriving at different times and also leaving at different times. Most of the people would be probably leaving park just before it was completly dark. What time is it getting dark now here? 10ish - 11pm? It seems last known people left the party just before midnight, 5 long hours after party first started.

Also, if you ever hosted picknick or other parties, there is always some guest/s which stays behind, helps you clean up, pack up and than walks out together with you. Even more likely happening if it is your own birthday party.

I also personally don't believe two women would stay behind, alone, after everyone left, in any of the London's parks. After midnight? In Wembley? No way.

With regards to blood trail leading to an exit of the park 5 min away. Again, this was not done by DNA but simply ruled out to be theirs due to position of their bodies where they were both found in the park. They never made it to the exit.

Does this all above rule out for you someone who was at some point at that party - invited or not, drinking for 3 to 5 hours? I dont mind what news headlines say, but so far it is still no for me. Or police did not find all who attended or someone somewhere in those statements might be telling porky pies, covering for someone.

(All above just in my humble opinion and subject to change)

Nice post.

Pedantically, no injuries to anyone at the party would only rule out people who knew them who also.attended the party.

I think the phraseology is what is causing problems, as it states 'unknown' to the Sisters, rather than 'someone who was at the party'. If the Police wanted to say they had excluded all at the Party, why wouldnt they just say that? As it stands ,and as a prev poster said earlier,it stretches credibility as to how the Police could exclude everyone that both women knew in both their circles in such a small amount of time? This is what is puzzling people imo.

Some nice insights to the area, thanks. ( I know Ealing and Acton well and Lived in Kilburn briefly 30yrs ago, but dont know Wembley )

 

[Pimlipo]

Lots of people mentioning here that it must be DNA ruling out attack by someone sisters knew. Well, this is Wembley, Borough of Brent, one of the poorest in the London capital and one with the most death of Covid in the city. While police is great, there is no way DNA was back in 2 days - in Wembley.

I personally lean on that police suspect it was stranger because nobody who attended that birthday party (of those who they know of) had any visible injuries. Frenzied knife attack would leave injuries on suspect's hands even if other party did not fight back. As there was blood trail leading to an exit of park injuries might have been more severe, possibly from other places on the suspect's body as well. (Remember those frenzied knife attackers who accidently slit/stabbed themselves too? Happened on few occasions).

I am waiting to hear on reports if it was few stab wounds or big amount like we saw in some very rare cases...

Someone mentioned here that possible motive could be racial attack. Bear in mind that about 80% of Wembley's population is black, so I personally do not think this was the motive in this case.

Party started around 7pm. As this was the birthday party, very likely some amount of alcohol was involved. Some food, maybe cake and also knife/s to cut it.

Some people were probably arriving at different times and also leaving at different times. Most of the people would be probably leaving park just before it was completly dark. What time is it getting dark now here? 10ish - 11pm? It seems last known people left the party just before midnight, 5 long hours after party first started.

Also, if you ever hosted picknick or other parties, there is always some guest/s which stays behind, helps you clean up, pack up and than walks out together with you. Even more likely happening if it is your own birthday party.

I also personally don't believe two women would stay behind, alone, after everyone left, in any of the London's parks. After midnight? In Wembley? No way.

With regards to blood trail leading to an exit of the park 5 min away. Again, this was not done by DNA but simply ruled out to be theirs due to position of their bodies where they were both found in the park. They never made it to the exit.

Does this all above rule out for you someone who was at some point at that party - invited or not, drinking for 3 to 5 hours? I dont mind what news headlines say, but so far it is still no for me. Or police did not find all who attended or someone somewhere in those statements might be telling porky pies, covering for someone.

(All above just in my humble opinion and subject to change)

Maybe they are confidently linking it to this man in his 50s mentioned earlier in some way, I haven’t a clue.
But I would say as a man from kilburn myself, north west London, I wouldn’t fancy hanging around the local parks at midnight myself and it’s strange to me two ladies were happy to stay there at that time.
Alcohol + the feeling good of strength in numbers maybe did that..

 

[Alyce]

Nice post.
Pedantically, no injuries to anyone at the party would only rule out people who knew them who also.attended the party. I think the phraseology is what is causing problems, as it states 'unknown' to the Sisters, rather than 'someone who was at the party'. If the Police wanted to say they had excluded all at the Party, why wouldnt they just say that? As it stands ,and as a prev poster said earlier,it stretches credibility as to how the Police could exclude everyone that both women knew in both their circles in such a small amount of time? This is what is puzzling people imo.

Some nice insights to the area, thanks. ( I know Ealing and Acton well and Lived in Kilburn briefly 30yrs ago, but dont know Wembley )

Very good point. The timeline we have of the sisters being left alone at midnight ( I saw 00.40 hrs was quoted in some msm ) can only have been set by the last person who left the party.

 

[Mellowmelly]

I also wonder how the police have came to the conclusion that the attacker was unknown to the victims, especially so early into the investigation. Stranger killings do happen though, so it's possible. I wonder if one of the sisters had a stalker or perhaps a secret relationship that had ended badly ? He stalks her and gets jelous when he finds her in the park ?

 

[Mrs Marple]

You would think if there was a mad person on the loose there would be more publicity. Perhaps because of lockdown they are less concerned about the risk.

I wonder if this is someone who has not had access to the help they need because of lockdown.

 

[Alyce]

Good to see the thread title has been changed