UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[Dotta]

How can reporting it to the nurse Director and Medical director months apart be doing nothing?

He has already said on oath that he wished he had pushed it more when the directors did nothing

He also said he wished he had put incident form in in hindsight

He is the only person to go on the stand and shame the directors

He has also stated that although it seemed things seemed to happen when LL around he had no proof of what or how

The problem I see here...
Is there a paper trail??

It was hammered into my poor head when I started work:

Write reports!
Make copies, sign them and put into motion via secretariat/main office where they are stamped and recorded.

This way you are covered and nobody can blame you of not taking action.

JMO

 

[scottishgal]

How can reporting it to the nurse Director and Medical director months apart be doing nothing?

He has already said on oath that he wished he had pushed it more when the directors did nothing

He also said he wished he had put incident form in in hindsight

He is the only person to go on the stand and shame the directors

He has also stated that although it seemed things seemed to happen when LL around he had no proof of what or how

I am wondering why the prosecution hasnt called the other doctors who had concerns too and they had the consultants meeting as result - feels like that would be a stronger case with two or more , reduces the confirmation bias worry etc - why didnt they call more of them, do we know

I mean i know the nurses and registrars testified but only to facts and not about having suspicions

The review when it was started in 2016 , was it started by the hospital based on these concerns (with a suspect already in mind) and done independently - or was the start of the review based on the statistics being noted by a supervisory entity, thanks in advance

 

[JosieJo]

The problem I see here...
Is there a paper trail??

It was hammered into my poor head when I started work:

Write reports!
Make copies, sign them and put into motion via secretariat/main office where they are stamped and recorded.

This way you are covered and nobody can blame you of not taking action.

JMO

Who knows ..he said he wished he had documented more ..but he would be mad to go public and state the members of the board he told if not

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I think it all comes down to how he reported it and what he said. There is a difference between going to e.g. the HR department and filing a formal written complaint and going to someone who is senior to you and having an informal chat about concerns you have as a way to test the waters before making an official complaint.

The articles and tweets say he “reported it” , but that could have been an informal conversation , during which his concerns were dismissed , which wouldn’t have resulted in a written report .

 

[Anxala]

How can reporting it to the nurse Director and Medical director months apart be doing nothing?

He has already said on oath that he wished he had pushed it more when the directors did nothing

He also said he wished he had put incident form in in hindsight

He is the only person to go on the stand and shame the directors

He has also stated that although it seemed things seemed to happen when LL around he had no proof of what or how

Fair points, particularly the ^BIB above. In a sense, it's quite courageous of him to acknowledge his own failings here since he must know how his failure to take action beyond the action he took will be perceived by, well, us at large, since we're here making all sorts of 'wisdom after the event' judgements about him.

 

[Dotta]

Who knows ..he said he wished he had docutmented more ..but he would be mad to go public and state the members of the board he told if not

Unfortunately, "paper" is the most important in bureaucracy!
That's life.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

I think it all comes down to how he reported it and what he said. There is a difference between going to e.g. the HR department and filing a formal written complaint and going to someone who is senior to you and having an informal chat about concerns you have as a way to test the waters before making an official complaint.

The articles and tweets say he “reported it” , but that could have been an informal conversation , during which his concerns were dismissed , which wouldn’t have resulted in a written report .

Bit more info here:

Dr Jayaram said the team told the senior director of nursing in autumn 2015 but nothing was done. He said it was raised again in February 2016, and the hospital’s medical director was told at this point. The doctors asked for a meeting but didn’t hear back for another 3 months.

The consultant told the court that he wished they’d bypassed hospital management and gone to the police. He said “We were getting a reasonable amount of pressure from senior management at the hospital not to make a fuss”

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[Sweeper2000]

Incidentally LL being a higher tier nurse on a understaffed unit could be a factor in how these reports were received. I highly doubt it but maybe.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I wonder (IMO of course), even if he tried to do something to keep patients safe, it’s possible it would look like he was bullying etc. it’s a very fine line to get right without fear of being penalised yourself for trying to keep patients safe.

Perhaps that’s what all her mentioning of bitchiness and concerns about her position by others were all about. JMO

If it's several consultants making essentially the same allegations at once then it's a lot less likely to come over as bullying, IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

Has he, though? He's not stated any names or specific positions, as far as I have seen in the evidence. We don't even know who these "other consultants" are he says held similar reservations about her.

In his evidence about walking into the room where LL was standing over baby K he said that he did so in order to "...convince himself he wasn't imagining it or being hysterical.." or words to that effect. Why would one have such self doubt if you knew that several other consultants agreed with him and had already raised concerns the previous year. If you and your peers all agree on something then you are surely way past the point of "doubting oneself"? Yet he says he still had reservations about his feelings in his evidence!

Al MOO, obvs.

Evidence from last week -

"The court went on to hear that Dr Stephen Brearey, head of the neo-natal unit, reviewed the circumstances surrounding the case of Child D shortly after her death in June 2015.

Dr Jayaram said it was not a formal review and he discussed the findings with Dr Brearey who had looked at case papers and files.

Mr Myers said: “He identified Lucy Letby as a person of interest.”

Dr Jayaram replied: “I think he noticed that Lucy Letby was the nurse looking after these babies and that was it.”

Mr Myers went on: “He raised with you the fact that Lucy Letby was present on these occasions?”

“Yes,” said Dr Jayaram."

more to read at link Lucy Letby trial: Doctor tells of shock at possible baby deaths cause

 

[WaxLyrical]

I think it all comes down to how he reported it and what he said. There is a difference between going to e.g. the HR department and filing a formal written complaint and going to someone who is senior to you and having an informal chat about concerns you have as a way to test the waters before making an official complaint.

The articles and tweets say he “reported it” , but that could have been an informal conversation , during which his concerns were dismissed , which wouldn’t have resulted in a written report .

Totally agree.

He says the head of NNU (?) was the one who mentioned that LL had been present for babies A-D, but didn’t express suspicion of foul play. Was it a case of Dr J going back to the same person a few months later and saying “hey this keeps happening, and she’s always involved” and being shushed away?

I cannot even fathom being in this position and NOT writing everything down. There were 3 months between Dr J raising these concerns and him walking in on Baby K. In my opinion it’s so unlikely he just happened to coincidentally think of her and managed to catch her. He (or they) must’ve been keeping an eye on her for weeks.

The sheer volume of information not written down is making me very suspicious that a deliberate choice was made not to write things down.

JMO.

 

[Sundial]

I agree. What possible reason could they have for not doing anything? This is a consultant (several of them, in fact) raising serious concerns about a lowly nurse rather than a nurse calling a consultant out.

I feel so deeply and heartbreakingly for these families. IMO, more could have been done sooner if there were such awful concerns, to prevent this. So unbelievably sad.

 

[Sweeper2000]

To me dr j testimony suggested that he waited a while before going into the room to check on ll. not that he was arguing with himself that he was being silly or whatever. Might just be me though.

 

[Anxala]

I would hope (and really like to think) something would be provided in due course highlighting this point. I’m interested to hear more after her move to admin duties. Surely, one would think there must be something documented somewhere in this by senior management, ward management, anything really. My own view of course but given the scale of these tiny infants involved, words fail me if there is no paper trail or anything around this topic.
JMO

That will be interesting. LL's move to admin, in the light of the suspicions against her, must surely have been the result of formal discussion and accompanied by formal paperwork. And however it was approached, she must also surely have been advised in writing of her change in work status.

Even the most inept 'head in the sand' and/or arrogant of managements would surely have to abide by good HR practices.

Surely...

 

[Dotta]

I feel so deeply and heartbreakingly for these families. IMO, more could have been done sooner if there were such awful concerns, to prevent this. So unbelievably sad.

How true!

The dead Babies and those brain damaged ones, and their poor families are the victims here.

Regardless of guilt or innocence of LL.

JMO

 

[Sundial]

If it's several consultants making essentially the same allegations at once then it's a lot less likely to come over as bullying, IMO.

Granted, that’s a fair point. But if it was first raised in 2015, I wonder if that was initially him (solely) and there was talk about it; I guess in some way it could still be viewed as bullying if it were few people having concerns etc about performance with no proof.

We heard previously about the “concerns” about her being relatively junior and her position. Then the text message from her ward manager (I think?) she seem to make a point of sharing with the colleague “some of the not so positive things said about me” etc. Could you imagine a few people raising those issues (without proof) and making a meal of it, being pulled to one side for work harassment and bullying. My own view of course.
I keep thinking back to the comments about bitchiness, comments about “who told you, (Ali) etc.. Can anyone recall where in the timeline this was?

 

[Tortoise]

So, I've been wondering, from a legal point of view, if a nurse watched a baby dislodge her own breathing tube, and watched her stop breathing - forget for a moment the allegations of the monitor being paused - and purposely did nothing to help, would that count as murder?

 

[Sundial]

Bit more info here:

Dr Jayaram said the team told the senior director of nursing in autumn 2015 but nothing was done. He said it was raised again in February 2016, and the hospital’s medical director was told at this point. The doctors asked for a meeting but didn’t hear back for another 3 months.

The consultant told the court that he wished they’d bypassed hospital management and gone to the police. He said “We were getting a reasonable amount of pressure from senior management at the hospital not to make a fuss”

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I hope we get to hear more from “senior management” in due course.

 

[Tortoise]

Granted, that’s a fair point. But if it was first raised in 2015, I wonder if that was initially him (solely) and there was talk about it; I guess in some way it could still be viewed as bullying if it were few people having concerns etc about performance with no proof.

We heard previously about the “concerns” about her being relatively junior and her position. Then the text message from her ward manager (I think?) she seem to make a point of sharing with the colleague “some of the not so positive things said about me” etc. Could you imagine a few people raising those issues (without proof) and making a meal of it, being pulled to one side for work harassment and bullying. My own view of course.
I keep thinking back to the comments about bitchiness, comments about “who told you, (Ali) etc.. Can anyone recall where in the timeline this was?

she asked a colleague who had told her about baby E's death, in August

she asked JJ-K who had told her about baby G's collapse in September

she complained to the manager about not so positive comments regarding her role after baby I's death in October

she was seen crying that it always happens to her a lot, around the time of baby I's death.

 

[marynnu]

Granted, that’s a fair point. But if it was first raised in 2015, I wonder if that was initially him (solely) and there was talk about it; I guess in some way it could still be viewed as bullying if it were few people having concerns etc about performance with no proof.

We heard previously about the “concerns” about her being relatively junior and her position. Then the text message from her ward manager (I think?) she seem to make a point of sharing with the colleague “some of the not so positive things said about me” etc. Could you imagine a few people raising those issues (without proof) and making a meal of it, being pulled to one side for work harassment and bullying. My own view of course.
I keep thinking back to the comments about bitchiness, comments about “who told you, (Ali) etc.. Can anyone recall where in the timeline this was?

Just did a quick google search. I think the messages might be in the Baby H case?