UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

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  • #801
thank you I did understand the 'hair in bun' reference :cool: - just that Sweeper2000 got me wondering as well why some of these personal banter comments are being referenced and read out by prosecution and some are not (like what the doctor's reply was to that , if any) - figured out half the answer though that her colleague's anonymity and messages are being protected under privacy laws unless really relevant to the case.

Yeah this is a good question, and I am curious to know how they chose what to present as well.
 
  • #802
Yeah this is a good question, and I am curious to know how they chose what to present as well.
More useful to the defence I would have thought, the banter with the doctor - as it makes it more unlikely that she was doing what she is alleged of whilst and in between. maybe not ?
 
  • #803
Andy Gill

@MerseyHack
·
1h

In a Facebook message to a doctor about efforts to help Baby N after he collapsed and how another nurse was “faffing”, Lucy #Letby says “I like things to be tidy and calm - or as much as possible.”
 
  • #804
low stimulation preference. Jmo
 
  • #805
More useful to the defence I would have thought, the banter with the doctor - as it makes it more unlikely that she was doing what she is alleged of whilst and in between. maybe not ?
I really struggle to see how it could benefit the prosecution’s case other than giving the jury an insight to ll and her personality.
 
  • #806
3:17pm

Lucy Letby is recorded as entering the neonatal unit at 7.10am. She messages the doctor: "No repeat today. I've escaped being in 1, back in 3".
The sequence of events shows Child N had a desaturation at 7.15am.

Highlighted for focus; JMO I re-read this a few times, “no repeat today” makes one wonder about “what” this actually refers to. Especially given her mention of the hair in a bun comment and the text communications with the previous colleague about said doctor. The room, repeat, hair in a bun, colleagues messages about being commando etc. It could equally be purely nothing at all, but if a baby in their care was injured, or became unwell whilst staff are “distracted”, well.. is this what the prosecution are presenting? All my own view.
 
  • #807
Andy Gill
@MerseyHack
·
1h

In a Facebook message to a doctor about efforts to help Baby N after he collapsed and how another nurse was “faffing”, Lucy #Letby says “I like things to be tidy and calm - or as much as possible.”
Considering the bag under the bed kind of view, that could debated either way imo.
On a side note, I have a child who has had borderline thyroid problems since a similar age. It’s not common, but it does happen according to our doctor.
 
  • #808
"Sorry if I was off during intubation...I like things to be tidy & calm (Well, as much as possible!)"

3:44pm

The doctor responds: "No, you were perfectly fine with me...I thought you were wanting to just get on with in case there was another desat."

BBM. Interesting that she was worried she acted "off" in front of this doctor during the intubation.
 
  • #809
In a Facebook message to a doctor about efforts to help Baby N after he collapsed and how another nurse was “faffing”, Lucy #Letby says “I like things to be tidy and calm - or as much as possible.”
&

"Sorry if I was off during intubation...I like things to be tidy & calm (Well, as much as possible!)"

The doctor responds: "No, you were perfectly fine with me...I thought you were wanting to just get on with in case there was another desat."

Letby replies: 'Well I have got my hair in a bun today, it's only fitting that I was 'serious Lucy' !!"
I think these messages have been included to show a continuing pattern of LL ordering people about.


It sounds to me as if LL had been short with the other nurse, and then apologised to the doctor for it. The doctor said LL was fine with him - I wonder if she apologised to the nurse.

Taken in conjunction with the following situations and texts -

LL to JJ-K -
"LL: “Well that’s how I feel. I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that.”

followed next morning by
LL to JJ-K -
"Sorry if I was off, just wasn’t a great start to the shift but sadly it got worse."

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 3: Baby A

and

"Miss Walker said Lucy then 'firmly' asked her 'Why did you shout for help?', leaving her shocked because 'you can't have enough help in that situation'.

Mr Astbury asked her: 'How did you feel?'

Miss Walker said: 'Quite taken aback and shocked because it's something you would not expect a nurse to say.'

Mr Astbury said: 'Why has it stuck in your memory?'

The witness said: 'It's because I was told off for shouting for help.'"

Lucy Letby trial: Nurse 'told off' colleague who shouted for help

and

mother of baby E -

"She said Letby had told her the rules to go back to the post-natal ward and wait for anything further."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, November 14

and a couple of other examples where she didn't follow orders herself, and also said she could handle situations which were obviously escalating to life-threatening levels -

"Nurse Hudson recalls: "Lucy was already with her [at the incubator], trying to settle her. At that time [Child I's] observations were normal."
She says child I was crying "the same cry I had heard her display the first time [that night].
"Loud and relentless and unlike any other cry I had heard make prior to this night shift."
"My initial concern was she was obviously breathing...my concern was the cry was that she was going to have another episode of collapse."
She recalls articulating that concern to Lucy Letby within 60 seconds of being there.
The nurse says she said words along the lines of: "She's going to do it again, it's the same cry."
Letby responded with words of "reassurance": "She just needs to settle," Ashleigh Hudson recalls Letby saying."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, February 2

- it looks like the prosecution is demonstrating her personality. She wasn't exactly a senior nurse with a decade or more of experience under her belt, she was 25 or 26, and not long qualified.

People here often bemoan not knowing anything about her.

IMO
 
  • #810
&


I think these messages have been included to show a continuing pattern of LL ordering people about.


It sounds to me as if LL had been short with the other nurse, and then apologised to the doctor for it. The doctor said LL was fine with him - I wonder if she apologised to the nurse.

Taken in conjunction with the following situations and texts -

LL to JJ-K -
"LL: “Well that’s how I feel. I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that.”

followed next morning by
LL to JJ-K -
"Sorry if I was off, just wasn’t a great start to the shift but sadly it got worse."

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 3: Baby A

and

"Miss Walker said Lucy then 'firmly' asked her 'Why did you shout for help?', leaving her shocked because 'you can't have enough help in that situation'.

Mr Astbury asked her: 'How did you feel?'

Miss Walker said: 'Quite taken aback and shocked because it's something you would not expect a nurse to say.'

Mr Astbury said: 'Why has it stuck in your memory?'

The witness said: 'It's because I was told off for shouting for help.'"

Lucy Letby trial: Nurse 'told off' colleague who shouted for help

and

mother of baby E -

"She said Letby had told her the rules to go back to the post-natal ward and wait for anything further."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, November 14

and a couple of other examples where she didn't follow orders herself, and also said she could handle situations which were obviously escalating to life-threatening levels -

"Nurse Hudson recalls: "Lucy was already with her [at the incubator], trying to settle her. At that time [Child I's] observations were normal."
She says child I was crying "the same cry I had heard her display the first time [that night].
"Loud and relentless and unlike any other cry I had heard make prior to this night shift."
"My initial concern was she was obviously breathing...my concern was the cry was that she was going to have another episode of collapse."
She recalls articulating that concern to Lucy Letby within 60 seconds of being there.
The nurse says she said words along the lines of: "She's going to do it again, it's the same cry."
Letby responded with words of "reassurance": "She just needs to settle," Ashleigh Hudson recalls Letby saying."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, February 2

- it looks like the prosecution is demonstrating her personality. She wasn't exactly a senior nurse with a decade or more of experience under her belt, she was 25 or 26, and not long qualified.

People here often bemoan not knowing anything about her.

IMO
I'm not sure I'd give significance to all aspects of this. I always felt the HCA who called for help unasked must have been very annoying! And it's fair to say that having a tidy workplace & staying calm during an emergency is very helpful. People do get a bit snappy sometimes under pressure.
 
  • #811
I'm wondering if after they have gone through the cases there well be ex colleagues testifying further about her character? I think it's hugely unlikely that anyone working in that kind of stressed environment isn't occasionally a little off with people.

Maybe the prosecution are building towards something in terms of her behaviour and character.

ETA: I think any communications they have from after she has been taken off active duty may well reveal a lot more
 
  • #812
  • #813
..
Andy Gill
@MerseyHack
·
1h

In a Facebook message to a doctor about efforts to help Baby N after he collapsed and how another nurse was “faffing”, Lucy #Letby says “I like things to be tidy and calm - or as much as possible.”

how another nurse was “faffing”, Lucy #Letby says “I like things to be tidy and calm - or as much as possible.”


Hmmn I'd say this could be why the texts have been included. Comes across like she could be trying to impress the doctor like "Oh did you see the other nurse was faffing about but I was all calm"

Is it also confirming that the doctor her colleague said LL was flirting with, just happened to be the doctor on duty and called to help with the resus of Baby N when he desat-ed in LL's presence?

Really important texts if this is the case IMHO
 
  • #814
A few thoughts on today :

- this is the first time I’ve felt like we were actually given a few scraps of information about the context (of LL’s life) in which all these alleged acts took place.
- further evidence of a love interest (the doctor discussed in the text messages). I assume that this is the same lothario who caused LL to break down in tears when he appeared to give evidence the other week.
- the thyroid condition and it’s link to fertility problems potentially gives weight to the popular theory that if guilty, inability to have a baby was a motive .
- the thyroid condition causing LL tremors for the last year. Not something you’d want to have if you are a medical professional (or indeed want in the medical professional treating you if you were a patient). The immediate thing that sprung to my mind when I read about her tremors was that I wonder if the jury will infer from that that LL might have knocked a baby’s medical equipment because her hands were trembling, thus causing some of the alleged injuries in some cases. Obviously that has no bearing on the alleged insulin cases and air embolism cases, but in relation to dislodging the breathing tube or knocking a tube and causing trauma to the throat , it seems to me to be a possible inference. JMO as always.
 
  • #815
"We had (Child N) baptised during the day and that was recommended to us by Lucy.”



Not the first time LL has been there where baptism or christening has been discussed. Wasn't there some kind of debate or argument about whether or not to christen one baby and we weren't sure whether LL had suggested it or been for or against it at that point.
 
  • #816
Also, her claiming to like calm and tidyness, isn't really compatible with someone who may have lots of random/unwanted notes, pieces of paper, paper towels etc stuffed under a bed. Which could suggest she has stored them purposely rather than by accident. JMO.
 
  • #817
..


how another nurse was “faffing”, Lucy #Letby says “I like things to be tidy and calm - or as much as possible.”


Hmmn I'd say this could be why the texts have been included. Comes across like she could be trying to impress the doctor like "Oh did you see the other nurse was faffing about but I was all calm"

Is it also confirming that the doctor her colleague said LL was flirting with, just happened to be the doctor on duty and called to help with the resus of Baby N when he desat-ed in LL's presence?

Really important texts if this is the case IMHO

I agree ..was she trying to appear "in charge" in front of the Dr.
The first thing I thought when she mentioned the hair in the bun ..was maybe fishing for flirty compliments
 
  • #818
I want to know what the defense's explanation for this collapse is going to be.
 
  • #819
Not the first time LL has been there where baptism or christening has been discussed. Wasn't there some kind of debate or argument about whether or not to christen one baby and we weren't sure whether LL had suggested it or been for or against it at that point.
Calling a priest to hospital to perform baptism is dramatic and final IMO.
I cannot imagine what the parents were feeling.

JMO
 
  • #820
"He said the baby's condition deteriorated twice more, once when he and his partner left to get food, and again when they left to seek medical advice for his partner, who was feeling unwell.

[...]

The medic being discussed by the pair first gave evidence at Letby's trial a fortnight ago, addressing the jury from behind a screen.

On that occasion the neonatal nurse became visibly distressed and appeared to make an attempt to leave the dock via a side door in the glass-panelled dock."

10% Daily Mail -
Lucy Letby 'hugged mother after trying to kill her baby three times'
 
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