UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[katydid23]

Also just in general regarding the doctors' actions, lets not forget that day-to-day these doctors are day-to-day engaged in treating and life saving ALL of their other patients.

One reason for passing the problem to management is because they don't have time to 'watch' a nurse who may or may not be causing a problem. There's no budget available to just 'give' someone the job of 'watching' someone else. And who would that be? Everyone's role is already critical. These are high intensity surroundings where people are working twelve hour exhausting shifts making life/death decisions every single day.

I honestly think it's extremely unfair to say that the doctors or frontline medical staff 'should have done more'. IMO they were on the front line, and relying on those who sit in offices all day to come up with the solution to the problem they had been presented with. If that isn't the job of those in management positions, then what are they getting paid for? Just to turn a blind eye?!

THIS^^^ !!!!!

 

[marynnu]

Also just in general regarding the doctors' actions, lets not forget that day-to-day these doctors are day-to-day engaged in treating and life saving ALL of their other patients.

One reason for passing the problem to management is because they don't have time to 'watch' a nurse who may or may not be causing a problem. There's no budget available to just 'give' someone the job of 'watching' someone else. And who would that be? Everyone's role is already critical. These are high intensity surroundings where people are working twelve hour exhausting shifts making life/death decisions every single day.

I honestly think it's extremely unfair to say that the doctors or frontline medical staff 'should have done more'. IMO they were on the front line, and relying on those who sit in offices all day to come up with the solution to the problem they had been presented with. If that isn't the job of those in management positions, then what are they getting paid for? Just to turn a blind eye?!

Spot on. Who on earth would it be 'keeping an eye?' when there are issues with staffing? And on what planet could a nurse manager ask a fellow nurse to do this anyway? "I want you to keep an eye on your colleague LL as she might be harming the babies". Ridiculous.

 

[esther43]

If she's convicted, I think the sentencing will be televised

 

[Tortoise]

The thing I find interesting about babies OPQ, is that they seem so rapid. I mean geez, she just got back from holiday and boom, just like that, three in a row. And also, wasn't child N right before she headed off? If LL is guilty of the alleged offences then for some reason she must have felt particularly compelled.
There would seem to be a lot of risk taking if it were true that she was on a binge like this.
The only rationale, I can think for a person coming back in with such force would be if deep down inside her, she actually wanted to be caught.
Either that or she is completely in denial to herself and on such a high from it all she's deluded perhaps similar to what you might see in the early onset of some sort of manic episode, with ideas associated with grandiosity and that sort of thing, ..'life saving / hero mode'
But it's strange, her colleagues don't seem to point towards her being out of sorts.
Were the medical team watching LL like a hawk? Did she essentially 'take the bate' and commit a crime in front of a captive audience after the consultant discussion. Or was her time up before she instigated the alleged final collapse?

I believe, with doctor choc and several of the parents, we've seen evidence in those situations of LL not having much of an awareness of the feelings of people around her, it looks to be as if her focus is very much concerned with 'what does LL think and need', an out of touch reality. There are also many examples of her not noticing or caring about other staff member's concerns and observations, she is driven to do what she wants to do at potential risk of having her conduct reported up the line, or people at least making a mental note of unexpected actions and behaviours -

child C -
LL: "I just keep thinking about Monday. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it, but [nurse] said no x"
JJ-K: “I think they do respect it but also trying to help you. Why don’t you go in 1 for a bit?”
LL: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1

The nurse [shift-leader] tells the court Letby did not have any designated duties to be in the family room, and told her "more than once" not to be in the family room.
The nurse said Melanie Taylor took over as designated nurse and "partly" arranged the memory box.
The nurse explains she asked Lucy Letby to focus back on a baby in nursery room 3, but Letby went into the family room "a few times". The nurse recalled asking Lucy Letby to leave the family to Melanie Taylor.

child I -
event 1 -
'Lucy was in the doorway. We were talking, I don't remember the content of the conversation. (Then) she said she thought (Baby) I looked pale'. [...] Mr Driver: 'Was there anything about the layout or lighting that would have afforded her a better view of the baby than the one you had?' Nurse Hudson replied: 'No'.

event 2 -
"Loud and relentless and unlike any other cry I had heard make prior to this night shift." "My initial concern was she was obviously breathing...my concern was the cry was that she was going to have another episode of collapse."
She recalls articulating that concern to Lucy Letby within 60 seconds of being there.
The nurse says she said words along the lines of: "She's going to do it again, it's the same cry."
Letby responded with words of "reassurance": "She just needs to settle," Ashleigh Hudson recalls Letby saying.
Child I became quiet, with pauses in breathing, and she became bradycardiac and her saturations "started to drift".
Oxygen delivery began again, along with ventilation breaths. They shouted for help from colleagues.

child K -
He said: "I saw Lucy Letby standing by the incubator. I saw her, and looked up at the monitor, and K's saturations were dropping, in the 80s and continued to drop. The ventilator was not giving out an alarm.
"I recall looking up and saying 'what's going on?' and Lucy said something along the lines of 'She's having a desaturation'."
Asked what Letby was doing, Dr Jayaram replied: "Nothing." He says Letby didn't say anything to Dr Jayaram until he had walked over and he had asked her what was going on.

child O - shift-leader -
'I remember I thought I don’t think he looks as well as he did before'. She told the court she suggested to Ms Letby that he be moved to nursery 1 for closer observations. Ms Taylor said that Ms Letby said 'no, she felt he was okay and wanted to keep him in nursery 2 and wanted to keep the three triplets together' - Ms Taylor says she felt she was 'put out' by this. 'I couldn’t put my finger on it, I just had a gut instinct I didn’t feel like he was as well', Ms Taylor said. Ms Taylor said she 'felt like (Ms Letby) was undermining my decision'

child P - 'Nurse Letby was present in that debrief. I asked her how she was feeling, and I can remember suggesting to her that she would need the weekend off to recover from this. 'She didn't seem overly upset in the debrief, or at all, and told me at the time that she was on shift the next day, a Saturday. [...] He recalled Letby later walking past him, appearing 'happy and upbeat'. 'She looked me in the eye very confidently'.

links
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

Lucy Letby 'was in tears as she said 'it's always me when it happens'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, February 2

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Senior hospital executive ignored warnings about killer Lucy Letby


If she's not guilty of any wrong-doing, I think it shows that she thinks rules don't apply to her and she's irresponsible and reckless, and if she's guilty, in addition, I think it shows a very sure belief that she's invincible.

I also think it's very relevant that by the end of that year, none of the alleged air embolisms had been identified in post-mortems. And that it was easy to write retrospective nursing notes that were at odds with other accounts, until real scrutiny was applied, and evidence gathering was conducted.

MOO

 

[esther43]

In the UK?

It’s in the title of the link that I posted. In the article, the quote was provided by Dr Ravi Jayaram
“In retrospect, I wished we had bypassed them and gone straight to the police.
“We by no means were playing judge and jury at any point but the association was becoming clearer and clearer and we needed to find the right way to do this. We were in an unprecedented situation”.

I’m sure there is a lot of sorrow and regret.

If the police had become involved some babies’ lives could have been saved, (if the consultants are correct, and LL is guilty). I believe that the consultants acted throughout in good faith (even if they are wrong, and she is innocent).

I do not underestimate the stomach-churning sheer terror of going to the police with a very serious allegation. Sometimes it is all that you can do, because the alternative is much worse.

Okie dokie, I'll stand corrected on that point, that in hind site, he wishes he'd have by passed SM and gone straight to the police.
But I'm still thinking KE, the med director and CEO manager messed up way more than he did.
They literally put everything back onto the consultants until Dr B had to spell it out that any further decisions taken in relation to LL he would no longer take personal responsibility for.

 

[Tortoise]

no one tweeting.

For baby O I think we still have to hear from doctor choc, perhaps the reviewing pathologist regarding liver trauma, Drs Evans and Bohin, and perhaps Professor Arthurs for radiology opinion.

 

[esther43]

I believe, with doctor choc and several of the parents, we've seen evidence in those situations of LL not having much of an awareness of the feelings of people around her, it looks to be as if her focus is very much concerned with 'what does LL think and need', an out of touch reality. There are also many examples of her not noticing or caring about other staff member's concerns and observations, she is driven to do what she wants to do at potential risk of having her conduct reported up the line, or people at least making a mental note of unexpected actions and behaviours -

child C -
LL: "I just keep thinking about Monday. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it, but [nurse] said no x"
JJ-K: “I think they do respect it but also trying to help you. Why don’t you go in 1 for a bit?”
LL: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1

The nurse [shift-leader] tells the court Letby did not have any designated duties to be in the family room, and told her "more than once" not to be in the family room.
The nurse said Melanie Taylor took over as designated nurse and "partly" arranged the memory box.
The nurse explains she asked Lucy Letby to focus back on a baby in nursery room 3, but Letby went into the family room "a few times". The nurse recalled asking Lucy Letby to leave the family to Melanie Taylor.

child I -
event 1 -
'Lucy was in the doorway. We were talking, I don't remember the content of the conversation. (Then) she said she thought (Baby) I looked pale'. [...] Mr Driver: 'Was there anything about the layout or lighting that would have afforded her a better view of the baby than the one you had?' Nurse Hudson replied: 'No'.

event 2 -
"Loud and relentless and unlike any other cry I had heard make prior to this night shift." "My initial concern was she was obviously breathing...my concern was the cry was that she was going to have another episode of collapse."
She recalls articulating that concern to Lucy Letby within 60 seconds of being there.
The nurse says she said words along the lines of: "She's going to do it again, it's the same cry."
Letby responded with words of "reassurance": "She just needs to settle," Ashleigh Hudson recalls Letby saying.
Child I became quiet, with pauses in breathing, and she became bradycardiac and her saturations "started to drift".
Oxygen delivery began again, along with ventilation breaths. They shouted for help from colleagues.

child K -
He said: "I saw Lucy Letby standing by the incubator. I saw her, and looked up at the monitor, and K's saturations were dropping, in the 80s and continued to drop. The ventilator was not giving out an alarm.
"I recall looking up and saying 'what's going on?' and Lucy said something along the lines of 'She's having a desaturation'."
Asked what Letby was doing, Dr Jayaram replied: "Nothing." He says Letby didn't say anything to Dr Jayaram until he had walked over and he had asked her what was going on.

child O - shift-leader -
'I remember I thought I don’t think he looks as well as he did before'. She told the court she suggested to Ms Letby that he be moved to nursery 1 for closer observations. Ms Taylor said that Ms Letby said 'no, she felt he was okay and wanted to keep him in nursery 2 and wanted to keep the three triplets together' - Ms Taylor says she felt she was 'put out' by this. 'I couldn’t put my finger on it, I just had a gut instinct I didn’t feel like he was as well', Ms Taylor said. Ms Taylor said she 'felt like (Ms Letby) was undermining my decision'

child P - 'Nurse Letby was present in that debrief. I asked her how she was feeling, and I can remember suggesting to her that she would need the weekend off to recover from this. 'She didn't seem overly upset in the debrief, or at all, and told me at the time that she was on shift the next day, a Saturday. [...] He recalled Letby later walking past him, appearing 'happy and upbeat'. 'She looked me in the eye very confidently'.

links
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

Lucy Letby 'was in tears as she said 'it's always me when it happens'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, February 2

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Senior hospital executive ignored warnings about killer Lucy Letby


If she's not guilty of any wrong-doing, I think it shows that she thinks rules don't apply to her and she's irresponsible and reckless, and if she's guilty, in addition, I think it shows a very sure belief that she's invincible.

I also think it's very relevant that by the end of that year, none of the alleged air embolisms had been identified in post-mortems. And that it was easy to write retrospective nursing notes that were at odds with other accounts, until real scrutiny was applied, and evidence gathering was conducted.

MOO

True that. Another example of the contrasting perceptions you reference include how LL believes that her colleagues perceive her, compared to how she perceives herself. for example she believes that everyone is happy with her working in room one and it just 'works' because of her skill set. She points out to Dr choc that consultant HM also thinks she's great and thinks the she is the trajectory for a promotion.
Conversely quite a few HCP's have testified that there was growing concern about her, she was about to get taken off of nursing duties and nobody wanted her on room one.
A stark contrast indeed.
Moo

 

[Kemug]

Managers are meant to manage.

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

Dr Stephen Brearey, who was head of the neonatal unit in 2015/16, is now in the witness box. He is recalling his memory of the events of 23 June 2016 - the day Child O died

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
27s

Dr Brearey wasn't the consultant on call that week - but he was in the hospital for a meeting. He passed through the unit and spoke to another doctor, who cannot be named for legal reasons, and was briefed on Child O. There had been a number of unsuccessful attempts to intubate

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

The doctor, who can't be named, told the court last week that he couldn't intubate as there was 'blood' and 'swelling' that prevented him seeing the baby boy's airway

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
57s

Dr Brearey stayed on the unit and offered to help with efforts to intubate

Just want to point out that Dan changed his tweets later, because the information he tweeted about intubation of child O was incorrect and not part of the evidence heard in court yesterday.

Those last two tweets above were deleted and his remaining tweet was amended to -

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
Mar 14

Dr Brearey wasn't the consultant on call that week - but he was in the hospital for a meeting. He passed through the unit and spoke to another doctor, who cannot be named for legal reasons, and was briefed on Child O. He stayed and offered to help

 

[LorriB]

These texts have been picked to tell a narrative about LL, and so we are getting a very limited view of her as a person. I think in many cases they show her as sociable, well liked, and also praise her work:

The colleague replies: "I am not going to forget but think you're way too hard on yourself..."

"It is heartbreaking but you've done your job to the highest standard with compassion and professionalism. When we can't save a baby we can try to make sure that the loss of their child is the one regret the parents have. It sounds like that's exactly what you have done. You should feel very proud of yourself esp[ecially] as you've done so well in such tough heartbreaking circumstances. Xxxx"


"Hope you have a good sleep. I just want to commend you for all you hard work these last few nights. You composed yourself very well during a stressful situation. It's nice to see your confidence grow as you advance through your career x"

"Anyway. You're a star. You e done yourself proud. "

"Try to think of all the babies you've saved and have gone home happily with their parents. You're a fab nurse. "

Messages also showed nursing colleagues had praised Letby for how she had managed during her shift the night Child A died. One told her: "You did amazing...so proud of you. Don't mean to sound patronising, that's genuine."

"A colleague of Letby, Belinda Simcock, messages her: "Thanks for listening, I'm ok x"

 

[ColourPurple]

Just want to point out that Dan changed his tweets later, because the information he tweeted about intubation of child O was incorrect and not part of the evidence heard in court yesterday.

Those last two tweets above were deleted and his remaining tweet was amended to -

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
Mar 14

Dr Brearey wasn't the consultant on call that week - but he was in the hospital for a meeting. He passed through the unit and spoke to another doctor, who cannot be named for legal reasons, and was briefed on Child O. He stayed and offered to help

Was it Dr NiceGuy who invovled Dr Brearey ?

 

[Marie Bell]

I just wanted to thank those who who are posting the updates on the trial - particularly @Tortoise - and to add how much I'm appreciating the input from those with the medical background who help to explain some of the details. As a complete layperson I'm in a similar position to the jury, and I'm very glad that the jury will be given directions from the judge, who will refer to evidence that 'they may want to take into account' or with which they might want to recall 'what the Defence said about it' etc.

Like most people I'm thinking that the Defence aren't planning to use medical evidence, and that the timetable makes it look as though the Defence may not be very long. Indeed going back to the Defence statement it seemed broadly to state that Defence relied on the prosecution being unable to prove its case. So how successful it has been in challenging the prosecution evidence, and in making the 'coincidence' angle something that jurors will remain uncertain about, is obviously a matter of opinion. And of course sometimes it's the case that the KC for the defence can do no more than conduct the best cross examination he/she can, because that's their duty to the Court and to justice. We'll see, I guess.

 

[ColourPurple]

These texts have been picked to tell a narrative about LL, and so we are getting a very limited view of her as a person. I think in many cases they show her as sociable, well liked, and also praise her work:

The colleague replies: "I am not going to forget but think you're way too hard on yourself..."

"It is heartbreaking but you've done your job to the highest standard with compassion and professionalism. When we can't save a baby we can try to make sure that the loss of their child is the one regret the parents have. It sounds like that's exactly what you have done. You should feel very proud of yourself esp[ecially] as you've done so well in such tough heartbreaking circumstances. Xxxx"


"Hope you have a good sleep. I just want to commend you for all you hard work these last few nights. You composed yourself very well during a stressful situation. It's nice to see your confidence grow as you advance through your career x"

"Anyway. You're a star. You e done yourself proud. "

"Try to think of all the babies you've saved and have gone home happily with their parents. You're a fab nurse. "

Messages also showed nursing colleagues had praised Letby for how she had managed during her shift the night Child A died. One told her: "You did amazing...so proud of you. Don't mean to sound patronising, that's genuine."

"A colleague of Letby, Belinda Simcock, messages her: "Thanks for listening, I'm ok x"

There was also the reference to some nurses having a problem with her being in room 1. But on the whole, the texts you've quoted suggest that, if guilty, she had no reason to think her actions/approach during or after the collapses were raising suspicions amongst her colleagues*, and therefore no reason to change anything.

*Obviously WE know that the consultants had raised concerns but she didn't. And even Dr B referred to her as "nice Lucy" so yes, she appears to have either been a genuinely nice person or somebody capable of presenting/projecting a convincing "nice" persona.

All IMO

 

[Tortoise]

Was it Dr NiceGuy who invovled Dr Brearey ?

Seems to be.

He was involved in his first collapse at 2.40pm and again later,

"The social media chat includes a series of messages between her and a consultant registrar that one nursing colleague had earlier suggested she was 'flirting' with. [...]

Later, the two colleagues find themselves working side by side as a team of medics work frantically to save first Baby O and later his brother. [...]

Some of the medical notes they write at the time of those collapses were shown to the jury as the prosecution began to go through the evidence relating to the babies' deaths. [...]

In a statement read to the court, the mother said [...] on June 23 her partner went down to the neonatal unit. He returned about 15 minutes later in the company of the registrar involved in the text conversations with Letby.

'(The registrar) came in and said (Baby) O's stomach had swollen and he needed a little bit of help to breath. He appeared very calm. He said it was normal and there was nothing to worry about'.

But when she went down to the unit a few minutes later she was greeted by 'a scene of chaos'. Baby O was in the intensive care nursery and lots of medical staff were 'running around'.

The same registrar was there, along with a female paediatrician and Letby. 'O's cot was now flat and the team were around him. I sat outside in my wheelchair..."

Nurse Lucy Letby 'murdered two triplets immediately after holiday'


Doc: Your notes must have taken a long time. Had you documented anything from this morning?

LL: Can’t think straight, so took a while.

Doc: Phew, not the first day back you were expecting. I was glad you were there, everything felt safe. Thank you for looking out for me.

LL: No, but it happens. Don’t need to thank me, I’m pleased you were there, think we work well together. Sorry for my loss of composure moment

Doc: I was trying to say thanks for checking I was okay. We do work well together

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 21: The Defendant, “I certainly don’t fancy him… just a nice guy.” - The Mail.

 

[ColourPurple]

Seems to be.

He was involved in his first collapse at 2.40pm and again later,

"The social media chat includes a series of messages between her and a consultant registrar that one nursing colleague had earlier suggested she was 'flirting' with. [...]

Later, the two colleagues find themselves working side by side as a team of medics work frantically to save first Baby O and later his brother. [...]

Some of the medical notes they write at the time of those collapses were shown to the jury as the prosecution began to go through the evidence relating to the babies' deaths. [...]

In a statement read to the court, the mother said [...] on June 23 her partner went down to the neonatal unit. He returned about 15 minutes later in the company of the registrar involved in the text conversations with Letby.

'(The registrar) came in and said (Baby) O's stomach had swollen and he needed a little bit of help to breath. He appeared very calm. He said it was normal and there was nothing to worry about'.

But when she went down to the unit a few minutes later she was greeted by 'a scene of chaos'. Baby O was in the intensive care nursery and lots of medical staff were 'running around'.

The same registrar was there, along with a female paediatrician and Letby. 'O's cot was now flat and the team were around him. I sat outside in my wheelchair..."

Nurse Lucy Letby 'murdered two triplets immediately after holiday'


Doc: Your notes must have taken a long time. Had you documented anything from this morning?

LL: Can’t think straight, so took a while.

Doc: Phew, not the first day back you were expecting. I was glad you were there, everything felt safe. Thank you for looking out for me.

LL: No, but it happens. Don’t need to thank me, I’m pleased you were there, think we work well together. Sorry for my loss of composure moment

Doc: I was trying to say thanks for checking I was okay. We do work well together

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 21: The Defendant, “I certainly don’t fancy him… just a nice guy.” - The Mail.

Thanks. So the potential love interest inadvertently played a part in her subsequent (alleged) downfall.

IMO

 

[LorriB]

There was also the reference to some nurses having a problem with her being in room 1. But on the whole, the texts you've quoted suggest that, if guilty, she had no reason to think her actions/approach during or after the collapses were raising suspicions amongst her colleagues*, and therefore no reason to change anything.

*Obviously WE know that the consultants had raised concerns but she didn't. And even Dr B referred to her as "nice Lucy" so yes, she appears to have either been a genuinely nice person or somebody capable of presenting/projecting a convincing "nice" persona.

All IMO

Yes, there are texts that might suggest her work was being critiqued as Tortoise said. My point really is if you look for it, you can find evidence either way based solely on the texts!

I agree though, if guilty, she's cunningly pulled the wool over many of her colleagues and seniors eyes. If innocent, well what an awful thing to happen to a well thought of nurse.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, there are texts that might suggest her work was being critiqued as Tortoise said. My point really is if you look for it, you can find evidence either way based solely on the texts!

I agree though, if guilty, she's cunningly pulled the wool over many of her colleagues and seniors eyes. If innocent, well what an awful thing to happen to a well thought of nurse.

which texts? I quoted evidence of work situations she was in, with collapsed babies.

 

[LorriB]

which texts? I quoted evidence of work situations she was in, with collapsed babies.

I should have been clearer, the texts for Child C you quoted, and the reported conversations she had at work.

 

[Imogenia]

I don't think it's a situation any consultant would expect to find themself in during their careers. It seems they raised their concerns appropriately and the people employed to deal with things (for whatever reason) decided they didn't want to take action. Of course the consultants may well now be regretting they didn't take things further, but I just don't think you can apportion blame on them. Let's not forget it took the police 3 times to even be able to charge LL

I agree with all that you say.

I don’t blame the consultants for not going to the police, but I regret that they didn’t, just as they do.

I think that the reasons why those employed to manage alleged complicated and dangerous situations did not take action need to be thrashed out.

This understanding, leading to change, may avoid a repeat of such a situation in the future.

 

[Tortoise]

I should have been clearer, the texts for Child C you quoted, and the reported conversations she had at work.

Our posts were about different things.

I quoted some of the evidence which would show she wasn't particularly alert to how her actions may be perceived by others and behaved in a risky and headstrong fashion, whereas you quoted texts showing others praising her.