UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[Marantz4250b]

But why take 257 of them home in the 1st place? After the first dozen times don't you try to remember to leave them at work like instructed?

It is hard for me to believe her version, because she is proud of her devotion to her job and her calm measured reactions to work details, and responsibilities. So how could she be a highly competent and skilled nurse on the unit under life and death situations but not get the hang of turning in the handover sheets?

These hand-over sheets are a complete mystery to me, tbh. If they were only related to the babies in the allegations it would make more sense but, as has been mentioned, they seem to be a full year's worth. I mean we can't even really speculate that there might be hundreds of other allegations which didn't meet the bar for prosecution as it's been mentioned in court that the most number of potential incidents that Dr E was asked to examine was 35.

I agree with you that I find it hard to believe her version as to why she had that many given that she was noted for being highly meticulous in doing things by the book! That, of itself though, doesn't necessarily lend weight to the charges she's facing. It just makes her actions weird.

I also don't think it particularly unusual that she lied to the police about why she had them and said that she "....didn't know how to dispose of them..." if she has some compulsive disorder that compels her to do that. In fact, I'd pretty much expect someone in that position to say that.

All my opinion only, obvs

 

[Sweeper2000]

'I felt 'if' my practice hadn't been right, that I had killed them and that was why I was not good enough'
Right. But what about those two little words 'on purpose' ?? Very important two little words IMO that she pays no reference to.
Earlier in the interview she explains that she was writing about 'how others were perceiving her' yet here she talks about it being her own feelings in relation to her own experiences...

She did refer to it when she said she was blaming herself. I always thought a viable reason for the inclusion of those superfluous words were the presence of doubt when writing. In nearly all of the other notes we have seen she says she didn’t know if it was her or not. But you know, do you trust it?

 

[Tortoise]

sorry, this is really a stupid question, but what does this actually mean for a case? is this a commonplace occurrence or does it happen only occasionally?

I think usually legal argument has to do with the judge determining what matters should or shouldn't be put before the jury. It could be a matter of evidence, expert opinion, or to do with whether the defendant testifies. In a case as consequential as this, the issues are far reaching, especially if it is something that could lead to grounds for an appeal. No one wants to have a re-do of a trial of this magnitude, so a few days spent in argument between the parties is a drop in the ocean. Possibly.

 

[Sundial]

It sounds as though ".......didn't know how to dispose of them...." comment actually means "....I psychologically couldn't stop accumulating them and couldn't get rid of them for the same reason....", to me.

Having those sorts of issues doesn't make someone a murderer, thoigh.

All in my totally inexpert opinion, obvs.

True, although I never said that it made her a murder.
It however does make her extremely unprofessional, breaking confidentiality laws and her role as a nurse. Maybe the question we should all be hoping to find the answer to should be; so just WHY did she have all these and for WHAT exact purpose?
Moo

 

[Marantz4250b]

Perhaps because the bin liner wasn’t stored in her house during the first search and she moved them back from her parents house or desk in work?

They searched her parents house at the time of the first arrest though, I think? I can't imagine that she'd have hidden a whole bin liner of handover sheets in her desk at work.

 

[JosieJo]

These hand-over sheets are a complete mystery to me, tbh. If they were only related to the babies in the allegations it would make more sense but, as has been mentioned, they seem to be a full year's worth. I mean we can't even really speculate that there might be hundreds of other allegations which didn't meet the bar for prosecution as it's been mentioned in court that the most number of potential incidents that Dr E was asked to examine was 35.

I agree with you that I find it hard to believe her version as to why she had that many given that she was noted for being highly meticulous in doing things by the book! That, of itself though, doesn't necessarily lend weight to the charges she's facing. It just makes her actions weird.

I also don't think it particularly unusual that she lied to the police about why she had them and said that she "....didn't know how to dispose of them..." if she has some compulsive disorder that compels her to do that. In fact, I'd pretty much expect someone in that position to say that.

All my opinion only, obvs

I'm not sure I agree .. guilty or not she is not thick and she would have a good idea what was found during the search ..if innocent you would be saying exactly why you had them if innocent...even if unprofessional or just plain odd. If arrested on suspicion of murder you are not going to be worried about minor wrongs

 

[Marantz4250b]

it's not what happened.

there were no handover sheets found in the bin bag, and they were all found during her first arrest.

Sorry, I responded to a poster who said it was found on her second arrest.

 

[katydid23]

Police: "(You wrote) 'I did this, why me, I did this'. ”What did you do?"
LL: "I don’t know. I felt the situation had been caused by them implying that I hadn’t been competent"
Police: "Lucy were you responsible for the death of these babies?"
LL: "No".

I don't believe that she was truly questioning her competence as reasons for these collapses and deaths. I don't see how incompetence on her part could account for back to back to back collapses, often on babies she was'nt even caring for herself, just 'watching' while designated nurse goes on break.

Or babies who collapsed within minutes of her giving them a treatment or some meds. Incompetence could not cause 22 collapses.

 

[JosieJo]

They searched her parents house at the time of the first arrest though, I think? I can't imagine that she'd have hidden a whole bin liner of handover sheets in her desk at work.

The handover sheets were not in the bin liner

 

[JosieJo]

So many of these discrepancies/ oddities etc.. do not make her a murderer....but...how many of these can be excused before it becomes too many? Particularly when accompanied by the number of shifts she was on duty compared to others ... jmo

 

[Sweeper2000]

True, although I never said that it made her a murder.
It however does make her extremely unprofessional, breaking confidentiality laws and her role as a nurse. Maybe the question we should all be hoping to find the answer to should be; so just WHY did she have all these and for WHAT exact purpose?
Moo

You know what I think it’s relative. If she doesn’t see the harm in it and doesn’t associate it with the deaths and collapses it’s a thong of non significance to her. Why worry about something that she doesn’t consider important. Could explain why she didn’t dispose of them. I think if she considered them important she would have just gotten rid of rather than stuffing to the back of the cupboard. Its very strange though, so so many.

 

[katydid23]

She might simply mean dispose of them through the proper routes.

What proper routes? She took 257 of them improperly. No one knew she had them so why not just shred them or burn them or tear them up in tiny pieces and throw them in a fireplace? Or take some back to work to be disposed of?

It really feels to me that she wanted them and hoped to keep them for some reason. You don't 'accidentally' bring them home 257 times/ this was deliberate, imo

 

[katydid23]

So many of these discrepancies/ oddities etc.. do not make her a murderer....but...how many of these can be excused before it becomes too many? Particularly when accompanied by the number of shifts she was on duty compared to others ... jmo

These oddities do not prove guilt or innocence, at all.

I do think they add to the context of her feelings about her work and her babies at work. She could not easily detach or let go of her connection, it seems. And rules are made to be broken, apparently. She ignored them when need be I guess.

On one hand, she is so proud of her ability to stay calm and measured and follow all the important details in a crisis.Yet she couldn't follow simple rules, like turning in the handover sheets at the end of her shifts.

Maybe she didn't want anyone to see the notes she wrote on those sheets in case they were going to be reviewed in their future?

 

[katydid23]

I mean, yes if you have healthy coping skills and normal psychology. But maybe not if your coping skills are impaired.

If her coping skills are that impaired, how was she such a stellar nurse during all of those resuscitations she was commended for? It doesn't make sense.

 

[katydid23]

Yeh I know I’m not saying it isn’t unusual at all. I’m just saying if she is that much of a stickler for moral thinking she might not want to get rid of them by disposing of. Them at home. I do think the notes are strange.but again begs the question of why keep them if guilty.


Is so strange.

If she is such a stickler for moral thinking, why take them home 257 days in a row? One you do it a dozen times, don't you think maybe I should be more mindful tomorrow and hand in my handover sheet? How does she accidentally do it every single work day?

I have to believe she took them home on purpose, for some unknown reason.

 

[WaxLyrical]

JMO here, I don't think we should take everything she says literally. Remember she's under duress here and trying to explain what was going through her head at the time. To expect every word out of her mouth, under such pressure, to make unambiguous sense is really neither a fair nor reasonable expectation.

I read the 'never meet anyone' more as her saying she'd never be able to have a relationship with anyone because the terrible ghost of her past, were she to be found guilty of malpractice and all the rest of it, would always be present and would inevitably prevent anything romantic/long-term ever developing with anyone she met in the future.

I have OCD and if I was in a situation where I was accused of wrongdoing, this is exactly where my mind would go. I’d catastrophise. What’s the worst possible outcome here, however unlikely, and I’d dwell on it. If I was innocent, my thoughts wouldn’t be “I’ve nothing to worry about because I’m innocent” like a normal person, I’d be immediately assuming they’d somehow pin it on me, that I could never rid myself of this allegation, that my life is ruined and things will never be as they were before. As completely ridiculous as it sounds, I’d probably start wondering if I did in fact do it.

Interestingly, one of the first things that alerted my parents to my intrusive thoughts when I was a child was me telling them that if I was accused of murder, I’d start believing that I did it even if I didn’t.

This is all hypothetical, my OCD and anxiety is under control and has been for a very long time, and I don’t wish to project onto Letby. But I don’t struggle to relate to the things she wrote, and her answers given to police are not a stretch for me. IF they are the truth.

Having said all that, I could never plead not guilty to a crime I did commit. So I cannot relate to that. If guilty.

JMO.

 

[katydid23]

I’ll give an example of how feelings rarely meet facts at all in my own experience.

iwas working at a community centre that had playgroup for toddlers. I was carrying equipment through the hall and this little boy turned around and ran straight into the equipment, huge bump on his head the poor little thing. I felt guilty as hell, so bad like I couldn’t get this sin off my hands. In reality there wasn’t much I could do. He. Turned around so quickly and ran he must not have seen me. Still feel bad about it to this day. apologised to his mum and she said do you know how often kids hurt themselves I said no. She said “everyday don’t worry”. Still did not stop me feeling bad.

I understand. But those babies did not run headfirst into the alleged insulin tainted bags or the air in their lines. Someone actually had to allegedly do those things on purpose. JMO

 

[Dotta]

Sorry, I responded to a poster who said it was found on her second arrest.

Yes.
I misunderstood somebody else's post

I checked it once again, and indeed it was her note that that was found in the bin bag (which was full by the way).

Oh well, I read all these posts in a hurry.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't believe that she was truly questioning her competence as reasons for these collapses and deaths. I don't see how incompetence on her part could account for back to back to back collapses, often on babies she was'nt even caring for herself, just 'watching' while designated nurse goes on break.

Or babies who collapsed within minutes of her giving them a treatment or some meds. Incompetence could not cause 22 collapses.

I think the police interviews revealed a really large part of her character, which is to confidently defend herself, have an answer for everything and not have self-doubt. That alone contradicts all of her answers for why she wrote what she did, even if they weren't so ridiculous, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

Firstly, I'm amazed she didn't think the police would see the shredder when they searched her house or find all the handover sheets. Maybe she really didn't expect them to do a thorough search, but if guilty, these interviews seem to show her trying to talk her way out of the accusations, although the explanations are a load of rubbish IMO.

For example:

Asked about the 'I AM EVIL I DID THIS' note: "That's how it all made me feel at the time...not intentionally, but I felt if my practice was not good enough, then it made me feel like an evil person..."

Evil if you weren't a good nurse? I would say useless or incompetent or a failure, if it were me, as these just imply a lack of ability. Evil implies a deliberate intent to cause ill.

IMO IF guilty etc

Exactly. And how would you kill them 'on purpose' if it was just because you were not competent?

That does not make any sense to label it 'EVIL' and 'ON PURPOSE' if it is a matter of poor training.

[not that incompetence could create all of these collapses anyway, imo]