UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

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  • #641
The collapses were inexplicable and unexpected at the time, I think that's the point. It's hard to express just how extremely odd this is on a neonatal unit.
and, I would say, as we are learning with every day of evidence, there is so much more to this case than the experts' diagnoses of deliberate harm, and what first appeared to the doctors to be inexplicable collapses and deaths.

There are the many associated allegations, as the year progressed, of premeditation and calculated design of each incident; discrepancies which came through analysis of the medical records, text messages, and parents' accounts, which also need to be justified, if one disregards the many experts' opinions.

How to explain the examples of babies who were seen not to be in declining health by their parents at a time when LL recorded serious problems, in some instances reviewed by doctors and noted to be well without reference to the incidents LL later noted, and in other instances said to have been seen by anonymous SHOs who have no record of it, as well as all the adjustments of times in paper records, and observations charts not matching up?

JMO
 
  • #642
What does she even mean by she collects paper?
For what purpose?
The mind boggles… o_O

I‘m just catching up on today‘s goings on in court and was surprised that she is now saying she collects paper (what!?). It’s gone from accidentally coming home with her to her collecting paper.

Also noted that it’s now several hundred handover sheets according to write ups with Chester Standard, BBC and ITV. Elaine Willcox also said it on Granada Reports outside court. I thought it was 257 (is it a mistake or am I missing something like it the several hundred sheets relating to 257 babies?)
—————————————————————————————————————————
A blood gas printout from Child M, along with several hundred shift handover sheets – some containing names of children she allegedly targeted – were also found in police searches.

Letby has told the court the documents would innocently “come home” in her uniform pocket at the end of her shifts and that she would “collect paper”.


 
  • #643
The mind boggles… o_O

I‘m just catching up on today‘s goings on in court and was surprised that she is now saying she collects paper (what!?). It’s gone from accidentally coming home with her to her collecting paper.

Also noted that it’s now several hundred handover sheets according to write ups with Chester Standard, BBC and ITV. Elaine Willcox also said it on Granada Reports outside court. I thought it was 257 (is it a mistake or am I missing something like it the several hundred sheets relating to 257 babies?)
—————————————————————————————————————————
A blood gas printout from Child M, along with several hundred shift handover sheets – some containing names of children she allegedly targeted – were also found in police searches.

Letby has told the court the documents would innocently “come home” in her uniform pocket at the end of her shifts and that she would “collect paper”.


Her saying that she "collects paper" is just her way of saying she has a hard time throwing paper away. She used those exact words herself ages ago, in fact.

It's clearly not "collecting" in the way someone else collects stamps or coins, its "collecting" used in place of "hoarding", or similar, because she can't get rid of certain types of paperwork.

And it was 257 handover sheets they found she had.

MOO, obviously.
 
  • #644
It’s a difference in perceived value or risk in relation to the paper she does collect in the moment it is either stored or shredded.
Exactly, confidential document = high risk, so to shred and dispose of these would make perfect sense.

you can love kids whilst really disliking adults.
I wasn’t saying she was on the spectrum just giving an example of why some might not enjoy meeting new people, comfort zone and all that.
As a NICU nurse your utmost priority is working with parents, to empower them and educate them in taking a lead role in the care of their baby. If you just want to work with kids, then a NICU role would be a complete mismatch imo
 
  • #645
And it was 257 handover sheets they found she had.
Yes I mentioned that so why has it now gone to several hundred?

I understand when people say several to show they mean more than one (maybe it’s just lazy reporting?) Will now continue to read the more interesting things have been reported today.
 
  • #646
The mind boggles… o_O

I‘m just catching up on today‘s goings on in court and was surprised that she is now saying she collects paper (what!?). It’s gone from accidentally coming home with her to her collecting paper.

Also noted that it’s now several hundred handover sheets according to write ups with Chester Standard, BBC and ITV. Elaine Willcox also said it on Granada Reports outside court. I thought it was 257 (is it a mistake or am I missing something like it the several hundred sheets relating to 257 babies?)
—————————————————————————————————————————
A blood gas printout from Child M, along with several hundred shift handover sheets – some containing names of children she allegedly targeted – were also found in police searches.

Letby has told the court the documents would innocently “come home” in her uniform pocket at the end of her shifts and that she would “collect paper”.



There was a report on the BBC news this evening. My husband takes absolutely no interest in the case, but when they reported that LL said she 'likes to collect paper' he burst out laughing. Says it all IMO.
 
  • #647
Yes I mentioned that so why has it now gone to several hundred?

I understand when people say several to show they mean more than one (maybe it’s just lazy reporting?) Will now continue to read the more interesting things have been reported today.
257 is several hundred, though. They won't have now introduced more even if they had found more of them.
 
  • #648
Why would she not admit to knowing what going commando means? Surely it's not that embarrassing to say not wearing underwear? And I wonder why they even picked that text exchange up?!

Bit strange. Unless she genuinely doesn't / didn't know what they saying means and was confused or too embarrassed to admit?

Maybe she's hoping to be cleared of all allegations and seeks to keep her reputation intact by refusing to acknowledge she's even so much as taken part in workplace banter of a sexual nature?

Maybe she believes she will walk free from this court, fully vindicated, and return to her career? We have no idea how unrealistic / delusional she may be in her thinking. JMO MOO
 
  • #649
The mind boggles… o_O

I‘m just catching up on today‘s goings on in court and was surprised that she is now saying she collects paper (what!?). It’s gone from accidentally coming home with her to her collecting paper.

Also noted that it’s now several hundred handover sheets according to write ups with Chester Standard, BBC and ITV. Elaine Willcox also said it on Granada Reports outside court. I thought it was 257 (is it a mistake or am I missing something like it the several hundred sheets relating to 257 babies?)
—————————————————————————————————————————
A blood gas printout from Child M, along with several hundred shift handover sheets – some containing names of children she allegedly targeted – were also found in police searches.

Letby has told the court the documents would innocently “come home” in her uniform pocket at the end of her shifts and that she would “collect paper”.


I know and it's a contradiction to her 'ibiza bag' story. When apparantly she swapped her work bag from sports direct to the Ibiza one.
I was under the impression that after getting the Ibiza bag she shoved the old bag under the bed and started out a fresh with the new bag after her holiday (which was after child N)
But today we hear about some bizarre new daily routine which involves her taking the handover notes out of her pockets and / or the work bag and putting them in a bag under the bed? As part of her 'paper collection' I mean WTAF?
 
  • #650
It's clearly not "collecting" in the way someone else collects stamps or coins, its "collecting" used in place of "hoarding", or similar, because she can't get rid of certain types of paperwork.
So like a trophy you mean?
 
  • #651
So like a trophy you mean?
No. I mean like she has some compulsion to keep handover sheets and other bits of work related paperwork.

The whole "trophy" thing was discussed threads ago and there are simply too many to be trophies of anything and they cover five years. If she's guilty, obviously.

They found the handover sheet from her very first shift ever that she kept in a keepsake box. This suggests that there is something more significant to these to her and I don't belive that, if guilty, she started murdering babies from her first day at work. As I say, I get the feeling that it's because she's defined by her job in her mind. I think she absolutely lived for her job, tbh.

Edit: so, if they are trophies, then they are trophies of her career as a whole, I think.

MOO, obvs.
 
  • #652
This suggests that there is something more significant to these to her and I don't belive that, if guilty, she started murdering babies from her first day at work. As I say, I get the feeling that it's because she's defined by her job in her mind. I think she absolutely lived for her job, tbh.
I am really curious to know why you don't believe that. Some say that 'nurses don't become serial killers but serial killers become nurses'
Gold plated rose adorned treasure box anyone?
The whole "trophy" thing was discussed threads ago and there are simply too many to be trophies of anything and they cover five years. If she's guilty, obviously.
I don't think there are any hard and fast rules around 'trophy collection' ... There maybe several reasons she kept the notes both conscious and unconscious. In fact I'd say judging by other evidence (I e the written notes) LL was in a perpetual state of conflict about admission and denial. The 'ambiguity' around her practice of storing handover notes would fit with her contrary mind set. Though it's not in itself, firm evidence of it.
 
  • #653
Blaming them for what?
Johnson asked her why she was now rebutting 'agreed upon' evidence---and she said because she had earlier been relying upon her defense counsel----which seems to imply it was their fault
 
  • #654
257 is several hundred, though.
They’ve stated 257 in every report about handover sheets until today that’s why I questioned it (penny hadn’t dropped). Long day for me as I’m still buzzing from fast bikes and leather clad men - roll on tomorrow. ;)
 
  • #655
But they aren’t unexplained collapses for the most part. The prosecution’s experts have given a specific reason for the collapses in most cases. The defence says those reasons are wrong and that it was something else .
I should have said 'unexplained by naturally occurring medical conditions.' They can be explained by malicious assaults.
The question is which position is more credible. I’m not saying you have to have only one medical explanation which no one disagrees with in order to conclude that a murder or AM took place. But you have to be sure that one did take place.

Which is why looking at the big picture is important. Air embolisms in newborns are extremely rare. And here we have several cases of it, with the mottled rashes and the bubbles in the post mortem x-rays, etc.
You can’t convict on the basis that “there are 22 collapses, we don’t know what caused them, but here’s this person who was around for all of them and they were acting weird, so therefore the collapses must all be murder or AM and this person must be guilty.”

Correction, " there are 22 collapses, we know that most of them were caused by malicious actions, and only one nurse was present and allegedly involved with every incident. " So that nurse must be investigated and put on trial.IMO

Now that she is on trial, after the several years of intense investigation, we can question her about the incidents. I think her testimony has created problems for her because she has denied being near the babies during crucial times previously. But during questioning, we see that she was in fact, cot side for majority of the collapses. [if not all]
You have to be sure that a murder or AM has occurred before you start introducing opinions about a person’s behaviour into your thought process.

I disagree. I think you can investigate whether someone was involved with a suspicious collapse, if that person was present for all of the sudden, unexpected collapses, most of which have been described as malicious assaults.allegedly
 
  • #656
Her refusal to acknowledge that she knows what going commando means is really interesting. I wonder if it’s because her parents are in the room? In which case, that says a lot (to me anyway) about her relationship with her parents and her upbringing. We already know they are overprotective, that she feels somewhat obligated to them (couldn’t move to NZ because of the rents), that she would often seek sympathy and validation from them (texts like we lost one last night, text telling the mum she had a needlestick even though it was ultra low risk and she knew it would cause worry). The house purchase, I highly suspect was driven by (and invested in by) the parents. No long term relationships of her own (that were reported at least, you’d have thought the press would have dug up an old boyfriend or two when the news broke initially).

It’s just, interesting. IMO.
 
  • #657
By the way,
Mr NJ KC made me laugh so hard with his reference of
"Commando" and "army in Hereford"
Hahaha

This man has a sense of humour :D

JMO
 
  • #658
You have to be sure that a murder or AM has occurred before you start introducing opinions about a person’s behaviour into your thought process.
They were ( finally sure) and hence why a police investigation was launched.
Unfortunately getting to the bottom of these issues does involve entertaining a victim centred mindset and this is the belief on which the prosecution have built their case.
We can speculate a thousand reasons why it may not be true but if those reasons have not come from LL herself we are even further away from understanding what actually happened.
 
  • #659
Bit strange. It shouldn't really cause a person to feel that disorientated. Units I've worked and stayed in are always having visitors from other hospitals, departments, networks and obviously transfer teams are on and off units too. Whilst it might provoke curiosity, It shouldn't really be an unsettling experience. Imo.
I think Mr Johnson nailed it perfectly by his question in response:

She added: 'I'd never experienced other staff come from a different department or hospital. It was a completely new experience'.

Mr Johnson: 'Did you think that eyes from outside might work out what you'd been up to?'
 
  • #660
I think Mr Johnson nailed it perfectly by his question in response:

She added: 'I'd never experienced other staff come from a different department or hospital. It was a completely new experience'.

Mr Johnson: 'Did you think that eyes from outside might work out what you'd been up to?'
Exactly, she thought they were closing in on her and the game was up. Imo
 
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