VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #29

[magikarpmagikarp]

I think there needs to be a prescription for the stock bag, so the absence of one is significant.

This makes sense to me. A stock bag will have a different composition than the bespoke bag, so it must be a different prescription. Not like hanging a new bag of D10 to replace an old bag of D10.

 

[CS2C]

Jurors sent home, back tomorrow

 

[marynnu]

This is a window of almost eight and a half hours. How can it be stated with any certainty that only LL and one other nurse had access to it? Surely there would have been possibly dozens of people who had access?

There would have been around 12 nursing staff with potential access. But you're right, it's hard to say for sure who injected the insulin. Assigning responsibility to LL only works in the context of the other cases.

 

[marynnu]

This makes sense to me. A stock bag will have a different composition than the bespoke bag, so it must be a different prescription. Not like hanging a new bag of D10 to replace an old bag of D10.

Even a new bag of plain Dextrose has to be prescribed and signed for.

 

[IDK]

DBM, already answered

 

[Parker Knoll]

Jury sent home for the day.

 

[JosieJo]

This is a window of almost eight and a half hours. How can it be stated with any certainty that only LL and one other nurse had access to it? Surely there would have been possibly dozens of people who had access?

Did they not say only 2 nursing staff were on both shifts where insulin was administered?

 

[Tortoise]

Length of Deliberations Predictions (and backers!)

Mon 10th - day 1 (afternoon only) - 2pm to 4pm minus 5mins = 1h 55m
Tues 11th - day 2 - 4h 20m
Wed 12th - day 3 - 4h 20m
Thur 13th - day 4 - 4h 20m
Fri 14th - day 5 - 4h 20m
Mon 24th - day 6 - 4h 20m
Tue 25th - day 7 - 4h 20m

Running total = 27h 55m


Still in the game -

28h - @squish (backed by @katydid23 )
28h 28m - @DianaWW
30h 10m - @WaxLyrical
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000 (backed by @Luwin )
32h 14m - @Kittybunny (backed by @marynnu )
34h - @bbsaz
35h 25m - @Dotta
41h 15m - @Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc
45h 10m - @esther43
58h - @Jw192
70h - @bobbymkii
75h - @CS2C
80h - @V347

 

[ColourPurple]

This is a window of almost eight and a half hours. How can it be stated with any certainty that only LL and one other nurse had access to it? Surely there would have been possibly dozens of people who had access?

Around 8.5 hours, of which LL was present for around 5(if she started at around 7.30) I wouldn't say dozens had access, as the insulin and TPN bags were kept in a locked fridge so it would need to be somebody who had asked for the key and had reason to be accessing the fridge. Not sure what other medications were in there but no other baby was on TPN and no baby was receiving insulin.

The jury don't have to work out how she may have done it though. Although the prosecution seem to think she injected it into the first(or possibly only) TPN cotside. Johnson said "To give Child F insulin someone would've had to access the locked fridge, use a needle and syringe to remove some insulin, or, if they didn't do it that way, go to the cotside and inject the insulin directly into the infant through the intravenous system, intramuscular injection, or - and this is what we say happened - via the TPN bag."

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Around 8.5 hours, of which LL was present for around 5(if she started at around 7.30) I wouldn't say dozens had access, as the insulin and TPN bags were kept in a locked fridge so it would need to be somebody who had asked for the key and had reason to be accessing the fridge. Not sure what other medications were in there but no other baby was on TPN and no baby was receiving insulin.

The jury don't have to work out how she may have done it though. Although the prosecution seem to think she injected it into the first(or possibly only) TPN cotside. Johnson said "To give Child F insulin someone would've had to access the locked fridge, use a needle and syringe to remove some insulin, or, if they didn't do it that way, go to the cotside and inject the insulin directly into the infant through the intravenous system, intramuscular injection, or - and this is what we say happened - via the TPN bag."

JMO

The key was kept on a bunch, so you wouldn't know which key the person needed or what for. Various meds are kept in ward fridges. There is no doubt someone sabotaged the TPN bag, but IMO it's impossible to say 100% who. You could say that LL seems likely on the balance of probablities, but that's it I think.

 

[Marantz4250b]

There would have been around 12 nursing staff with potential access. But you're right, it's hard to say for sure who injected the insulin. Assigning responsibility to LL only works in the context of the other cases.

That's what I have an issue with, tbh. I see the rationale of concluding someone is guilty of something if you've concluded they've already committed a number of closely related crimes which share a good number of similarities. Although, only just, I have to admit.

I'm troubled with the insulin cases, however, because they aren't similar to the others, in my opinion. They are, to my mind, of a totally different nature and, whereas in the other cases only very few other people could have done them, in the insulin ones there are a lot of people who could have had access to those bags. There is very little to connect them to everything else that LL is accused of, in my opinion.

 

[bobbymkii]

Length of Deliberations Predictions (and backers!)

Mon 10th - day 1 (afternoon only) - 2pm to 4pm minus 5mins = 1h 55m
Tues 11th - day 2 - 4h 20m
Wed 12th - day 3 - 4h 20m
Thur 13th - day 4 - 4h 20m
Fri 14th - day 5 - 4h 20m
Mon 24th - day 6 - 4h 20m
Tue 25th - day 7 - 4h 20m

Running total = 27h 55m


Still in the game -

28h - @squish (backed by @katydid23 )
28h 28m - @DianaWW
30h 10m - @WaxLyrical
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000 (backed by @Luwin )
32h 14m - @Kittybunny (backed by @marynnu )
34h - @bbsaz
35h 25m - @Dotta
41h 15m - @Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc
45h 10m - @esther43
58h - @Jw192
70h - @bobbymkii
75h - @CS2C
80h - @V347

what's this "backed by" thing all about?
Is it like in a WWE wrestling match where a wrestler has another wrestler come out to the ring with them to patrol around ringside and offer them gentle encouragement throughout the match then hit their opponent over the head with a steel chair when the referee isn't looking?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Did they not say only 2 nursing staff were on both shifts where insulin was administered?

At least one bag was kept somewhere for 8.5 hours between being delivered and hung up, though. Even if there were only two nursing staff on duty when it was hung up it's pretty irrelevant as dozens of people could have potentially accessed it in that time, surely?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Around 8.5 hours, of which LL was present for around 5(if she started at around 7.30) I wouldn't say dozens had access, as the insulin and TPN bags were kept in a locked fridge so it would need to be somebody who had asked for the key and had reason to be accessing the fridge. Not sure what other medications were in there but no other baby was on TPN and no baby was receiving insulin.

The jury don't have to work out how she may have done it though. Although the prosecution seem to think she injected it into the first(or possibly only) TPN cotside. Johnson said "To give Child F insulin someone would've had to access the locked fridge, use a needle and syringe to remove some insulin, or, if they didn't do it that way, go to the cotside and inject the insulin directly into the infant through the intravenous system, intramuscular injection, or - and this is what we say happened - via the TPN bag."

JMO

Were they, though? I think we heard that insulin was kept in a locked fridge but were the bags too?

 

[JosieJo]

Were they, though? I think we heard that insulin was kept in a locked fridge but were the bags too?

Yes same fridge

 

[JosieJo]

At least one bag was kept somewhere for 8.5 hours between being delivered and hung up, though. Even if there were only two nursing staff on duty when it was hung up it's pretty irrelevant as dozens of people could have potentially accessed it in that time, surely?

It would come straight from pharmacy to the ward as it has to be kept in a fridge so can't be hanging about anywhere. Fridges are locked

Surely the chances of 2 different people purposely injecting insulin in two very different types of fluid is not reasonable doubt

 

[ColourPurple]

The key was kept on a bunch, so you wouldn't know which key the person needed or what for. Various meds are kept in ward fridges. There is no doubt someone sabotaged the TPN bag, but IMO it's impossible to say 100% who. You could say that LL seems likely on the balance of probablities, but that's it I think.

BIB - That's the same with every case though, although with the insulin cases it's just not disputed that somebody did something illegal by poisoning the babies. WIth Baby F the jury have to decide whether it was somebody else or whether it was the nurse who is also accused of attacking and killing Baby F's twin the day before, poisoning Baby Ll with insulin and all the other alleged attacks.

Thanks for the info re the keys. I found this too:.


Miss Tomlins told the court she recalled a new TPN intravenous feed bag being set up for Baby E after a longline tube needed to be replaced because it had 'tissued'.

This would have come from the padlocked fridge on the unit. Nurses had access to bespoke TPN bags for individual babies and stock bags for more general use or where there was no time to wait for a bespoke bag.

The bespoke bags lasted for either 24 hours or 48 hours, but seven years on from the incident she couldn't remember which.

Asked what type of feed bag would have been used on August 4, Miss Tomlins replied: 'It would depend on whether there were any more bags made up for him.

'If we had run out I assume we would have just attached to one of our stock bags and ordered more for him. It took a few hours for them to come from the pharmacy'.

She said the keys to both the fridge and the cupboards in Nursery 1 where drugs, insulin and intubation kits were kept together on the same bunch.

Asked by Simon Driver, prosecuting, who had possession of this, she replied: 'Usually the nurse in charge, but any one of us could ask for the bunch of keys and forget we had it in our pocket'.

She did not think a log was kept of who had the keys at any particular time.

Insulin was kept in the cupboards in Nursery 1, along with controlled drugs and the drugs needed for the intubation kits...

..
Asked about the keys, she said they might happen to be with the last person who had gone to the fridge.

'Sometimes you had to ask around. You just used to say 'Who's got the keys?' You would not necessarily say where you were going with them, but it would be the fridge or the cupboard.

'They kept intubation kits in the fridge. These contained drugs that were needed so they were ready and you could get on with it'.

She said two nurses would check that a new TPN bag had been connected correctly, but it might be set up by a single nurse. If it was a prescribed bag, one nurse would sign the paperwork.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11462603/Lucy-Letby-Trial-Three-colleagues-nurse-say-did-NOT-administer-insulin-alleged-victim.html

 

[marynnu]

what's this "backed by" thing all about?
Is it like in a WWE wrestling match where a wrestler has another wrestler come out to the ring with them to patrol around ringside and offer them gentle encouragement throughout the match then hit their opponent over the head with a steel chair when the referee isn't looking?

The losers (most of us!) have a second chance of glory by backing the winner. Or a chance of failing twice, depending on your point of view.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It would come straight from pharmacy to the ward as it has to be kept in a fridge so can't be hanging about anywhere. Fridges are locked

Surely the chances of 2 different people purposely injecting insulin in two very different types of fluid is not reasonable doubt

Unless LL didn't do any of them and there was another person adulterating bags with insulin?

Would all the fridges be locked or just the ones storing potentially dangerous/controlled substances?

 

[ColourPurple]

The losers (most of us!) have a second chance of glory by backing the winner. Or a chance of failing twice, depending on your point of view.

Or just be like me and ignore the rules and make another guess . My new guess is gonna be 33 hours, 33 minutes and 33 seconds precisely