VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #29

[marynnu]

I don't suppose anyone can remember who was present when new bags were hooked up - is it possible that someone present may have had the opportunity to DELIBERATELY rehang the old bag without anyone else noticing? And others present to assume it was a new bag? Just my opinion, if guilty, etc.

I don't think that's a realistic scenario. If a new bag & line were prepared they would replace the old ones and the old set is discarded straight away. It's a bit if a process as you have to attach the line to the pump, so nobody could simply swap them. And why would they, really?

 

[esther43]

Are these questions fair? Could have sworn q 1 has multiple correct answers?

Might be two chances to win then!

 

[DianaWW]

Very true but can they not utilise similar fact evidence? If one attempt proven can they extrapolate to other cases?

Yes. I think if they're certain of intent in the insulin cases, the rest will follow. Maybe that's why they want to be sure and asked a question? Not sure at all though!

 

[Sweeper2000]

If i

Might be two chances to win then!

If i put both correct answers do I get an extra point?

 

[JosieJo]

I don’t think this is accurate wording but I believe there was a collective word used to describe the process of changing or not changing the bag. Something like “we wouldn’t have hung up the old bag and if we did we would have documented it”. Was after mr Myers asked one nurse if they would or wouldn’t have.

“The nurse says she does not have an independent recollection of the event.

She confirms if the long line is tissued, it cannot be used again.

Mr Myers says if the long line is changed, then everything else is changed to avoid infection, including the TPN bag. The nurse confirms that would be the case.

Mr Myers: "You wouldn't put up an old [TPN] bag, would you?" “


The nurse: "I wouldn't, no. And we wouldn't have put it up as we would have documented that."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 24

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Yet in the same way .. if a new bag was put up it would also have been documented but we have not heard that

 

[Parker Knoll]

Buckle up everyone …. We are on.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yet in the same way .. if a new bag was put up it would also have been documented but we have not heard that

Just out of curiosity jojo I’m wondering what the potential consequences would be if it was discovered they had hung up the old bag? I can’t really envision someone getting a proper bashing for hanging up the old one in this context. Same way I doubt doc choc got a bashing for telling ll about the investigation. I just cant see much motivation for hiding a thing like that.

I also kinda think that with strict emphasis on prevention of infection that they would have Followed protocol and that’s why it wasn’t documented. They followed the protocol so no need to document what was a uniform process. Whereas a break from protocol would likely be documented. I really don’t know but I just doubt a nurse would lie about something potentially trivial.

I mean what’s the worst a nurse could expect in this instance? If theydid indeed hang the old tpn bag?

wouldn’t it also be true that there would be an order form for new tpn bags if two were used? One statement said there was a process to ensure a minimum of five tpn bags present each day with someone making sure the stocks were replenished every day? So if te were used they would be replaced and the documents would support that.


“Simon Driver, for the prosecution, asks about the stock bags in the refrigerator.

He says every night, a check would be undertaken to see if any had been used.

He asks how the checker would know if they had been used.

The nurse says if there weren't the stock five TPN bags in the fridge, new ones would be ordered.

The refrigerator would have 'start-up' TPN bags and 'maintenance' TPN bags of nutrition.

The nurse says there may be fewer 'target stock' of the 'start-up' TPN bags.

The nurse says such bags are checked every night and if any were being used or out of date, then the stock would be replenished.”

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 24

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

The jury resumed deliberations on Tuesday at 10.30am.

Lucy Letby trial jury sent home after seventh day deliberating

THE jury in the trial of baby murder-accused nurse Lucy Letby has been sent home following deliberations for a seventh day today (Tuesday, July 25).

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Parker Knoll]

I mean what’s the worst a nurse could expect in this instance? If theydid indeed hang the old tpn bag?

We are going back literally years on this point and my take on it is obviously then the unit didn’t have a clue what was going on or the ramifications years later.
So a little white lie just snowballed and got bigger and bigger.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Is interesting I think, even with only one tpn bag being used they still need to fill out a new order form to replace at least one every day, so why isn’t the next order for those tpn bags proof of how many were used? They must have the order forms.

 

[JosieJo]

Just out of curiosity jojo I’m wondering what the potential consequences would be if it was discovered they had hung up the old bag? I can’t really envision someone getting a proper bashing for hanging up the old one in this context. Same way I doubt doc choc got a bashing for telling ll about the investigation. I just cant see much motivation for hiding a thing like that.

I also kinda think that with strict emphasis on prevention of infection that they would have Followed protocol and that’s why it wasn’t documented. They followed the protocol so no need to document what was a uniform process. Whereas a break from protocol would likely be documented. I really don’t know but I just doubt a nurse would lie about something potentially trivial.

I mean what’s the worst a nurse could expect in this instance? If theydid indeed hang the old tpn bag?

wouldn’t it also be true that there would be an order form for new tpn bags if two were used? One statement said there was a process to ensure a minimum of five tpn bags present each day with someone making sure the stocks were replenished every day? So if te were used they would be replaced and the documents would support that.


“Simon Driver, for the prosecution, asks about the stock bags in the refrigerator.

He says every night, a check would be undertaken to see if any had been used.

He asks how the checker would know if they had been used.

The nurse says if there weren't the stock five TPN bags in the fridge, new ones would be ordered.

The refrigerator would have 'start-up' TPN bags and 'maintenance' TPN bags of nutrition.

The nurse says there may be fewer 'target stock' of the 'start-up' TPN bags.

The nurse says such bags are checked every night and if any were being used or out of date, then the stock would be replenished.”

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 24

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

The new bag would have a serial number on that has to be written on the prescription sheet

 

[Tortoise]

Is interesting I think, even with only one tpn bag being used they still need to fill out a new order form to replace at least one every day, so why isn’t the next order for those tpn bags proof of how many were used? They must have the order forms.

Possibly because they can't show any removed from the fridge weren't just discarded because of the expiry dates on them.

 

[crystalline]

I think, if hospitals use items like scissors for example (which in our hospital come in a sealed bag and are used once only) something like rehanging a bag would be a huge no no? And yes I would have thought there would be some stock counting going on at least.

Sorry to edit I don't just mean stock taking on the unit itself, I mean also from where they are restocked from etc...

 

[Sweeper2000]

The new bag would have a serial number on that has to be written on the prescription sheet

Is interesting. We have two quite important aspects of the protocol both seemingly contradicting each other. One is that it is against infection control procedures to reattach an ”old” tpn bag and that is also procedure to document when attaching a new one In the prescription chart. Which of the two is most important?

infection control or documentation?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Possibly because they can't show any removed from the fridge weren't just discarded because of the expiry dates on them.

I can’t seem to find the prescription dates for those tpn bags ? When made without lipids or other ingredients the shelf life is two months whereas with it’s about six days.

is there really no documentation about stock levels and prescriptions?

 

[crystalline]

is there really no documentation about stock levels and prescriptions?

Surely there has to be?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Surely there has to be?

Just found lots, about four different prescriptions all to be used within 48 hrs. Will collate the info. Ahhhhhh now I see what tortoise is saying.

 

[Honeybirdette]

If I’m being honest, I never quite believed the prosecutions version of the multi tpn bag poisoning. It always seemed quite unbelievable to me and a bit of a stretch to believe. However what’s important is the babies WERE poisoned by synthetic insulin. That part is indisputable and what’s most important.

Like the judge mentioned, the jury aren’t detectives and their job isn’t to act like one. We might never know how they came to be given the insulin, (whether it was the tpn bags or not) but they WERE without a doubt given it by someone.

I just hope there isn’t members of the jury who doubt or question the prosecutions version of the bag poisoning and therefore think they must find her not guilty based on that.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Following

 

[ColourPurple]

Just found lots, about four different prescriptions all to be used within 48 hrs. Will collate the info. Ahhhhhh now I see what tortoise is saying.

Baby F's was a bespoke TPN bag that had to be used within 48 hours. There was no replacement bespoke bag ready at the time the line was changed so they would have had to either use a generic stock bag instead or carried on using the same bespoke bag. Although it was protocol to change the bag there's no record of a new bag being signed for or hung, and there was no replacement bespoke bag available anyway, so although they could and should have changed the bag, it suggests to me that the bag wasn't changed... but annoyingly we'll never know.

JMO