GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[Furore]

IDK Furore
I do think there's something wrong with her, apart from being a psychopath. However she's highly manipulative so anything is possible.

She does seem oddly childish. And genuinely attached to the doctor she liked, that didn’t seem to be manipulative as such. Maybe she was capable of splitting/eupd as others said.

 

[IDK]

was just trying to find it
it has love hearts and Kathryn de Bergerac's name too, over & over. ( Apparently KdB was HR person)

So strange! Was it this one?

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/08/23/16/73080495-12435997-Mr_Brand_likened_Letby_to_Jeffrey_Dahmer_the_US_serial_killer_wh-a-23_1692804140718.jpg

 

[dotr]

I noticed in one of the articles recently post, ll seemed to just wrote Karen Rees name multiple times. Anyone else notice this or maybe I’m dreaming, lol. Anyway, it was really strange, IMO.

Found the article and I can only find KR’s name ~ 5 times, but one of the times it looks like the word “love” was written over it? This has probably already been discussed! IMO.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/08/23/16/73080495-12435997-Mr_Brand_likened_Letby_to_Jeffrey_Dahmer_the_US_serial_killer_wh-a-23_1692804140718.jpg

Under love.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Archived Times article posted by Dr Ravi…

The nursing director was having social dinners and coffee with Letby. They were friends or so the director thought.

When you consider who Letby was schmoozing up to, it’s entirely targeted and manipulative. Even moving into the patient safety area where senior staff worked. https://archive.ph/hhdue

I had a colleague once, who was so charming, suave, seemed so nice, but led an absolute double life, had a complete mask and completely duped all of us it was like icy water hitting you in the face when we all realised things like he had a secret wife, family etc. honestly he constructed whole separate fake worlds it was the most astonishing thing. So I can absolutely believe LL duped people and she did it on purpose to allow her nefarious goals.

How many high up bosses are having people round for dinner they’re meant to be investigating. This whole situation is just astonishing and rogue IMO

They have to be charged, it’s disgusting

The ex medical director said doctors should have pushed harder to raise concerns reports the telegraph - screenshot attached

LOL

WTH?

 

[cottonweaver]

So strange! Was it this one?

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/08/23/16/73080495-12435997-Mr_Brand_likened_Letby_to_Jeffrey_Dahmer_the_US_serial_killer_wh-a-23_1692804140718.jpg

Yes that's it

The thing I noticed with her love heart emojis is that they occur in unexpected places.
(Okay she has them with Dr A texts but she also uses them more randomly. Maybe it's part of her fake nice-girl persona which ' leaves sparkles wherever she goes')

here's a FB post of hers, NY Eve:

'Jurors were shown a photograph of Letby and her father on holiday in July 2016.
In August 2016 Letby photographed her parents on a trip to Cheshire and another picture was taken with her two cousins.

On New Year’s Eve, 2016, Letby wrote on Facebook: “ I'm not the same person I was when 2016 began; but I am fortunate to have my own home.

"I've met some incredible people and I have family and friends who have stood by me regardless - Thank you to those who have kept me smiling. Wishing Every Happiness for us all in 2017”


BTW - who do you all think is 'Tiny Boy' in the note screenshot on this page?
+ no idea why she writes LETBY over & over, maybe it is like @Furore just suggested

 

[cuecard]

and this too

'said that she had believed until the conclusion of the trial that the nurse was innocent.'

'“I did not attend the trial so I had an incomplete picture until the verdicts were announced, and more detail provided.”'

is that plausible to WS-ers who followed reporting over the 10 months? U only decided on verdict day?

I can't see how you could follow this case for 10 months and decide on verdict day personally, there had to be thoughts either way during it. I went into it with an open mind given the complexity of the case but I felt the prosecution set out a strong stall initially and the more the defence spoke/argued the more I swayed towards the prosecution. Others may have gone the opposite way to me but I couldn't imagine following this case for all that time and then on verdict day being like "I've made my mind up today" but that's just me.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’ve a Working theory or a theory I’m working on. I’m wondering what it will Be agreed up in years to come allowed this to happen then. I’m thinking how much of it is relative to the degree that the circumstances surrounding the deaths and incidents was contained to its immediate environment where proper reporting would have done a better job of addressing the problem. Say for instance if the events of child A had of followed a different route in being reported to governing bodies would then the issue have been dealt with more swiftly?

im looking at this might be the result of Lucy letby herself, if she’s cuddling up to managers is all the relevant info being reported correctly because it doesn’t seem so to me. all that “nice lucy“ output making the managers stonewall the consultants?

 

[Furore]

JMO but there can be an anti doctor rhetoric in some boards particularly when from nursing background. I think it fit their prejudice that consultants were harassing a nurse rather than god forbid, there was a serial killer on the loose. On top of which yes, LL was charming and cajoling and tricking really influential figures to maintain her supply of victims on the neonatal unit. She got repeatedly overfamiliar - with the doctor she loved, with the nursing director - having dinners with her - getting her dad involved in grievance meetings - adding mothers on Facebook - this isn’t someone with boundaries.

I think things will change in the nhs as a result of this case, some new reporting system or new legislation but terrible and incompetent humans have existed since th dawn of time I don’t think that’s entirely solveable.

 

[cottonweaver]

Karen Rees/Moore

'Karen Moore, head of nursing for urgent care​

Moore, whose surname was Rees at the time, was one of Letby’s line managers and allegedly refused to remove her from duty after two babies died within 24 hours.
She has been accused by Brearey of keeping the nurse in post, potentially allowing another baby, Baby Q, to be attacked the following day.
She was given an outstanding achievement award from the trust in October 2015, after Letby had murdered three babies and attempted to kill two more. In 2017 she was named “nurse of the year” by the trust, which called her “one of our true nursing stalwarts”.

https://archive.ph/gKaMt#selection-1059.0-1081.258

Also, @Sweeper2000 I can't find the link now but the first three murders were, instead of classing them as unexpected/no known cause, were categorised as due to medication errors. This was part of the reason that they didn't trigger an alarm. IDK who was responsible for categorising them in this way. If I find it, I'll link it

 

[iamshadow21]

Yes that's it

The thing I noticed with her love heart emojis is that they occur in unexpected places.
(Okay she has them with Dr A texts but she also uses them more randomly. Maybe it's part of her fake nice-girl persona which ' leaves sparkles wherever she goes')

here's a FB post of hers, NY Eve:

'Jurors were shown a photograph of Letby and her father on holiday in July 2016.
In August 2016 Letby photographed her parents on a trip to Cheshire and another picture was taken with her two cousins.

On New Year’s Eve, 2016, Letby wrote on Facebook: “ I'm not the same person I was when 2016 began; but I am fortunate to have my own home.

"I've met some incredible people and I have family and friends who have stood by me regardless - Thank you to those who have kept me smiling. Wishing Every Happiness for us all in 2017”


BTW - who do you all think is 'Tiny Boy' in the note screenshot on this page?
+ no idea why she writes LETBY over & over, maybe it is like @Furore just suggested

Pretty sure Tiny Boy and Whiskey, like Smudge and Tigger, turned out to be pets. I think she was asked about it on the stand.

I think for me, this note is the one that bothers me most, I think because it does seem the most unhinged. The note with the 'I did this' etc was more or less coherent, for all that the sentiments were dark. This just seems like the kind of word salad you get from patients with psychosis or really creepy stalkers in tv dramas, in fiction. If she genuinely does this and always has done, I think her prison shrink will be very interested in it. If this was an attempt to set up for an insanity defense, well, it freaks me out. And I say that as someone who used to write almost compulsively in my late teens, fill whole notebooks, when I was at my most damaged and alone.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

not much in this new link from the Mail. ( There's a school photo, aged 11, which is unremarkable)

MSN

Aylestone High pupil

One shocked former pupil, who asked not to be named, told how Letby was 'part of the geeky crowd, a very quiet, closed group', adding: 'I could never have imagined anybody in my form at school could commit such crimes.'

There was, however, 'just an element of weirdness about her', they admitted.
'When you go to high school you talk to most people, even if you don't become friends. But I can't recall ever having a conversation with her.'
'Nothing stands out. Vanilla is a good description.'
Another former schoolmate said: 'It's just hard to even begin to understand what went wrong.'
They also claimed that Letby's parents had isolated themselves since their daughter's arrest, adding: 'I think he [Lucy's father] and the mum struggle to understand any of this.
----
nothing more at the link

If I had a tenner for every time, post verdict or charging, that an old school friend later describes the killer as weird, I'd be very rich

 

[iamshadow21]

not much in this new link from the Mail. ( There's a school photo which is unremarkable)

Aylestone High pupil

One shocked former pupil, who asked not to be named, told how Letby was 'part of the geeky crowd, a very quiet, closed group', adding: 'I could never have imagined anybody in my form at school could commit such crimes.'

There was, however, 'just an element of weirdness about her', they admitted.
'When you go to high school you talk to most people, even if you don't become friends. But I can't recall ever having a conversation with her.'
'Nothing stands out. Vanilla is a good description.'

MSN

If I had a tenner for every time, post verdict or charging, that an old school friend later describes the killer as weird, I'd be very rich

But the things she described as weird was that she was so unmemorable, so average, so vanilla. (Vanilla is the new beige.)

So, she's just continuing the trend of 'so normal it's abnormal'.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

New interview - DCI Nicola Evans

' Lucy Letby abused the trust not only of the babies and their parents, but also of her nursing colleagues. In this episode Caroline and Liz chat to the deputy senior investigating officer, DCI Nicola Evans, about how she was able to manipulate everyone around her to get away with murder for so long'

Touches on LE's interviews with LL's colleagues. Asks DCI about the 2011 course that LL went on where the dangers of air embolism was taught but she can't really comment. DCI thinks LL underestimated the medical forensics that LE would utilise to solve these crimes

'Letby herself passed a training course, allowing her to administer medicine via special cannulas during which the dangers of air embolus was highlighted, just a fortnight before she murdered her first victim, in June 2015.

Time and again consultant pediatricians Dr Dewi Evans and Dr Sandie Bohin suggested they had been injected with air – either into their blood or down feeding tubes into their stomachs.
Both medics told the jury that virtually no research had ever been conducted into air embolus because injecting a bubble of air into the bloodstream of any patient, let alone a premature baby, was highly unethical.
They said it was virtually impossible to say how much air would be enough to block blood flow to vital organs and stop the heart.
However, they estimated that, in such vulnerable premature newborns, as little as 5ml – or a teaspoon – of air would be enough to kill.'

The medical evidence that finally caught Lucy Letby

The case against nurse Lucy Letby - who was today found guilty at Manchester Crown Court - hinged on the medical evidence.

www.dailymail.co.uk

calendar chart show the June 2015 'spree' of attacks

Nurse Lucy Letby guilty of murdering seven babies on neonatal unit

The 33-year-old is convicted of killing babies at the hospital neonatal unit where she worked.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

But the things she described as weird was that she was so unmemorable, so average, so vanilla. (Vanilla is the new beige.)

So, she's just continuing the trend of 'so normal it's abnormal'.

MOO

Her being described as "weird" was because of social awkwardness she suffered from.

It was noticeable, as some mentioned in Press.
E.g: a b/f of her colleague and her friend Dawn, who stated that LL felt uneasy in large group of ppl and only "let her hair down" (quoting) in her trusted group of friends.

What was the reason of it?
Was it low self esteem masked by super confidence?

JMO

 

[cuecard]

Her being described as "weird" was because of social awkwardness she suffered from.

It was noticeable, as some mentioned in Press.
E.g: a b/f of her colleague and her friend Dawn, who stated that LL felt uneasy in large group of ppl and only "let her hair down" (quoting) in her trusted group of friends.

What was the reason of it?
Was it low self esteem masked by super confidence?

JMO

Or it just may be her personality in general. I am a bit like that - e.g two days a week in a busy office for work is more than enough - being around lots of people just doesn't suit/interest me, I'm not uncomfortable per se but I can't say I enjoy it. But around my close friends? I am completely different.

I do think interesting things about LL and her dynamic and relationships with parents/friends etc will come to light but her being socially awkward or weird in that way as such doesn't really strike me as overly odd - not something I have said much during this case.

 

[Dotta]

"In person Letby was incapable of showing emotion or humanity.

Her demeanour was glacial, her face blank and devoid of expression.

When she started giving evidence in her defence, her delivery was so deliberate it bordered on robotic."

Watching the mother of a boy murdered by Lucy Letby, I wept in court

LIZ HULL: I've been to almost every day of the trial, sitting just a few feet away from the woman accused of some of the worst crimes in modern times.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[iamshadow21]

Her being described as "weird" was because of social awkwardness she suffered from.

It was noticeable, as some mentioned in Press.
E.g: a b/f of her colleague and her friend Dawn, who stated that LL felt uneasy in large group of ppl and only "let her hair down" (quoting) in her trusted group of friends.

What was the reason of it?
Was it low self esteem masked by super confidence?

JMO

Who knows. I don't think any of it is really indicative of much. I think all of those things could be said about most of us who aren't social butterflies or who have some form of social anxiety. Everything you said above could be exactly applied to me - socially awkward, uneasy in large groups, only lets hair down with trusted friends. Big difference, though - I don't kill people. Other people being in pain or emotionally hurting actually causes me phantom pain or emotional hurt. I'm the absolute opposite of a sadist, but I had one in my family, and that's a hard, painful way to get a deep insight into the mindset of it, but it's an invaluable gift if you have an interest in true crime, which I obviously do, because I'm here.

I think Letby hid her true nature very deeply, perhaps even from herself, until she was an adult and she was in that position of power over lives. I think it was probably always there, but dormant, perhaps a secret self she only indulged in expressing when she was alone, when she was lying in her bed at night falling asleep. I think it's almost universal that serial offenders fantasise from very young, sometimes from as young as three or four. I think for many years, she lived a fantasy of power and pain, until one day, the fantasy alone wasn't enough, and she crossed the line in the real world. Probably in a tiny little way - a minor cruelty to a pet, a wild animal or a bug, or another child - but the thrill of it was addictive. After then, the fantasy was always going to be second rate and pall in comparison to the real thing. But we all have choices. She could have chosen not to indulge that dark urge, but she didn't.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

JMO - BPD, a complex condition, is between mistrust of others and horrible self-esteem. There are some interesting studies indicating BPD lying in the intersection of three other well-known conditions. Maybe in five years we shall have a better understanding of what it is.

But my inner image of an ideal borderline girl would be not a “difficult” person, far from it. On the contrary, she is very nice, very polite, exceptionally attractive if on the slim side, always perfectly dressed and groomed, at this, she is also very smart and is “a helper”. She is often a loner in the college but gets perfect grades…and suddenly she falls apart and leaves when there is just one year left to graduate. And then she’d transfer and do great, and then fall apart several months shy of graduating again. This constant self-sabotaging on the verge of success is very common for BPD, IMHO. Either they get tired of pretending to be perfect, or this perfection is a shield, covering the fear of someone seeing “the real her”, or maybe success would put them right into the limelight and they don’t enjoy it.

This is why, if we are thinking Lucy and BPD, Münchausen syndrome is a little bit off that track. Münchausen syndrome would be probably more typical for histrionic personality disorder, another cluster B trait. Histrionics love attention and love to be in the center of attention. Borderlines, not quite.

I don’t quite know where I am driving at… some intuitive path about Lucy who I think is borderline. Very secretive. Prone to splitting. Her note was an example of splitting too. But maybe “splitting” refers not only to the external world, that’s either “all good” or “all bad”. Maybe it could be applicable to self-perception. Maybe the more she tried to look “nice and kind” in the eyes of everyone else, the more she had to balance it by “being horrible”? And when doctor A appeared, she had to try harder to be the best…and it pushed her more to be “horrible and murderous” when no one saw her”?

ETA: This phrase “I killed them on purpose because I am not good enough to care for them” is the example of splitting IMHO. The better she looks in the eyes of the world (and she does, she is a band 5 NICU nurse, the ultimate helper, plus the face of the unit in 2012, and the parents are thankful, too), the harder to keep the facade, and then she secretly does something horrible to prove to herself that she is not “good enough”. And then she can keep up with being “Mrs. Perfection”.

Does anyone see it this way?

What personality disorder is associated with Munchausen syndrome?


One theory is that people with Munchausen's syndrome have an anti-social personality disorder which causes them to take pleasure in manipulating and deceiving doctors. They may see a doctor as a figure of authority, so tricking these figures of authority, gives them a sense of power and control.May 3, 2023
https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/mental-health/munchausens-syndrome#:~:text=One theory is that people,sense of power and control.

Munchausen's syndrome - NHS inform​

https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/mental-health/munchausens-syndrome#:~:text=One theory is that people,sense of power and control.


So it could be both. I see manipulation and control and the craving of the pleasure she gets from being in complete control and being successfully deceitful as a prime motivation.

 

[katydid23]

The hospital was supposed to have launched an investigation in June 2015, but for some reason, that never happened. The proposed investigation was referred to in text messages between LL and a colleague.

Probably the investigation in June 2015 didn't happen because management didn't want one. They were too busy trying to shut the 'rumours' down and threatening the consultants to shut up about it. JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

I’ve a Working theory or a theory I’m working on. I’m wondering what it will Be agreed up in years to come allowed this to happen then. I’m thinking how much of it is relative to the degree that the circumstances surrounding the deaths and incidents was contained to its immediate environment where proper reporting would have done a better job of addressing the problem. Say for instance if the events of child A had of followed a different route in being reported to governing bodies would then the issue have been dealt with more swiftly?

im looking at this might be the result of Lucy letby herself, if she’s cuddling up to managers is all the relevant info being reported correctly because it doesn’t seem so to me. all that “nice lucy“ output making the managers stonewall the consultants?

Have found that quote but I don't know who was responsible for this critical early decision

'The sequence of events exposed by one of Britain’s longest murder trials made clear the almost wilful blindness of the hospital’s top executives to what was going on. For months they believed the senior doctors were engaged in a witch hunt against Letby. They refused to group the three early killings together, classing them as “medication errors” rather than unexpected deaths.

The Times view on Lucy Letby: Deadly Incompetence​

https://archive.ph/8hXvE#selection-923.0-923.379