UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

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  • #501
I'm a research scientist. Talented statisticians can make any data say what you want it to say depending on the calculations they choose to perform.

As the saying goes there are lies damn lies and statistics.
I agree entirely.

The thing is, though, that although everyone in the LL is innocent camp continually bangs on about "statistics", she was not convicted on anything statistical and statistics were essentially never mentioned during her tials.

The chart produced during the trial showing her shifts (which was mentioned a mere twice in ten months) was not a "statistical" chart at all. It was merely a chart to show that her shifts coincided with collapses and deaths. They never claimed that it made it likely that she did what she was charged with. It merely showed that she was there at the time. It was down to the jury to place whatever weight or significance on it they chose to.
 
  • #502
What about the LIES she told about the mother who came to feed her baby expressed milk, at 9 pm, and found Lertby standing over her screaming, bleeding child?

And Letby lied and said they mother did not arrive at 9, it was 10 pm. And Letby claimed the baby was not bleeding when the mother arrived. She accused the mother of being mistaken or deceitful.

But both of the parents testified and had corroborating evidence that the mom did come to the nursery at the appointed time of 9 pm, with the milk, and saw her baby crying in pain and bleeding from his mouth. Letby demanded that she leave the room but mum immediately went to call her husband and franticly described the blood and the screaming.

Letby was CAUGHT out in the trial for lying about that incident, and for changing her medical notes, falsifying times and observations, lying about what time she called for a doctor to look at the cause of the bleeding. And lying and saying there was no feeding appointment for 9 pm.

All of the above was proven in court. The doctor testified against Letby's timeline and vision of events. He refuted her claim that he cancelled the 9 pm feeding. But Letby doubled down and stuck with her lies, saying the parents and the doctor were wrong, ----mistaken or dishonest.

That baby, which was about to be released with his twin brother, died a couple of hours later, of massive internal bleeding, from unknown causes.

Why would Letby lie about what time the mother came to the nursery, or deny that the mother saw her baby bleeding at 9 pm? We know the mother was telling the truth because she called her husband at 9:10 pm and told him about the bleeding, and their phone records were shown as evidence of their testimony.

Letby lied because she had been caught injuring that baby, and she didn't call for a doctor until almost 10 pm. But she had lied and told the mother, at 9 pm, that a doctor was already on the way.

SO I DON'T CARE WHAT THIS MICKEY MOUSE KANGAROO CLOWN SHOW IS TRYING TO SAY NOW. There is nothing they can say which can explain Letby's proven lies about her phony timeline, her lack of calling for medical help, her accusations against the grieving parents, her falsified medical logs used to try and discredit the parents and the attending doctor, etc.

Letby did something to injure that poor child, was caught off guard when mum arrived for feeding, and then she clumsily tried to lie and falsify evidence to cover her tracks.

WE SAW IT UNFOLD IN THE TRIAL. She lied and the jury saw it all as well.
 
  • #503
The Letbyists have now begun to resemble a classic conspiracy cult - such as 9/11 troofers/Sandy Hook hoaxers, etc.. Like the former cults, they have started to become very aggressive and abusive to anybody who politely points out their misinformation/disinformation/lies. Oh, and they're all so insistent that they will be "proved right" any day now, just like the 9/11 troofers and Sandy Hook deniers insisted.

It will be interesting to see what will happen to the reputations of journalists such as John Sweeney, who has gone down the rabbit hole.
 
  • #504
Dr. Lees paper was cited 29 times by the prosecution its fair to say there wouldn't of been a conviction without it
 
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  • #505
what's the incriminating evidence in her home? I personally worked in criminal justice with ex offenders and I often looked up media reports about some of the people I worked with. It's probably not best practice, it's much better to take people as they come and not to know anything about them to deliver the best care. But likewise with Letby, I'm almost certain that nurses all across the land are looking up details of some of their patients with the proliferation of social media, loneliness and human curiosity. I don't see any of that amounting to very much at all. And the supposed confession in her notes, for me, actually does more to exonerate her than convict her. I cannot imagine a psychopath serial killer to ever bother to write 'i killed them', 'i did it' (let alone also that she did not do it and wasn't guilty) in a diary that he or she kept after having been accused of these crimes. A cold-hearted killer would have absolutely no need to go through such a guilt-tripping exercise. I know that the notes seemed like a gotcha at the time. I recall hearing about them from a news report at the time and thinking that was cast iron evidence of guilt. But on careful reflection, I think the notes point very strongly in favour of her innocence, not guilt. Remember: unless she's playing 4D chess with herself, she probably wrote these notes thinking they would not see the light of day. Would a psychopath killer write such a note? Alongside the opposite assertion that she was innocent? It seems clear to me that this is not in fact, as its cherry picked appearance at court would lead us to believe, evidence of a guilty mind.
Hi rohmer , I do not see in your post on which side of the fence you sit and nor does it matter but your assertion that no psychopath or serial killer would record details of their victims murders is wrong
It implies that all serial killers are the same when in fact they are as individual as you and me some may have traits that seem to create a pattern of sameness but trait and personality differ . I have gathered some links for you to look at .




Neither of us know for sure if Lucy letby is guilty or innocent. We can only form opinion based on the information in front of us . I feel the jury ,LE and the judge made a decision based on the same thought processes .

What is quite telling is how a person behaves .I think this case has the ability to draw a tear from the eye of even the most hardened of law enforcement and many many of us at WS as it involves the most vulnerable. Lucy letby only showed emotion twice during her two trials and the most telling episode was when her married doctor lover spoke , she did not show emotions at any time for any of the babies whom died . This to me reveals a person who lacks empathy, a narcissist will only cry for themselves and one pattern we do see in serial killers is this trait it is often the common denominator that links crimes of this type .


 
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  • #506
This is a good link . It provides all the BBC articles in one place

 
  • #507
I don't think the things you mention really amount to that much. I think in the absence of compelling medical evidence, keeping ahold of medical records for babies she's been accused of harming or even retrieving records from the bin have much evidentiary weight. As I said, people could take a morbid interest in such things for countless reasons both harmless and more nefarious without it ever implicating them in something like murder. Say you knock out the statistical evidence entirely and account for the fact that improper use of statistics (as now charged by illustrious bodies on statistics) has set the whole thing in train from the start thereby colouring everything with confirmation bias for everyone involved. Then you pit the medical evidence from the prosecution against this new medical evidence from the panel. Say you rule their respective evidence-giving as cancelling each other out. It's hard for me to imagine that any of this other circumstantial evidence carries much weight or anywhere near enough to convict someone of these murders. I don't think even a mountain of such pieces of evidence as facebook search at questionable levels, again in the absence of concrete evidence and with experts now willing to risk their reputations to state that no murders have taken place, could ever be enough to convict. Because they're basically meaningless bits of behaviour that is really pretty commonplace. I don't believe there's a suggestion here that she only searched for information on the parents of babies she was accused of murdering before she was accused, if you get what I mean. No statistically clear smoking gun-like pattern has emerged where was discovered that she only looked up the babies she was then accused of murdering. If the way the evidence of her alleged confession was cherry-picked in court was anything to go by, I'd guess that while there might be a pattern of her obsessively looking up the parents of babies who she was supposed to be looking after, there's probably also evidence of her having looked up the parents of, say, other parents whose babies she was supposed to care for and who she hasn't been accused of murdering. Perhaps there's a ton of circumstantial evidence that I haven't seen; I just think this new development throws the whole thing into uncertainty.
Rarely in these types of crimes do we have "concrete " evidence as you put it .IF we did there would have been evidence of Lucy observed in the act .

The majority of evidence presented in court in every case is constructed from separate pieces of information brought together to create a bigger picture .

You argue that all this mountain of circumstantial evidence is really a mountain of rubbish when compared with this New reveal by Dr Lee and the other 13 panelists. What makes this the perfect 'concrete 'evidence for you

In my mind every lawyer can go 'Expert Shopping ' until they find one or a few whom are willing to agree with them . There are I'm sure many many more experts in the neonatal field whom may not agree with these new findings

As you state you worked within the criminal justice system and I have to take that at face value but you should know more than others whom have not that there is no golden ratio of evidence required to place a criminal behind bars it is the sum of all probability that can be argued in court as to ascertain that a person has committed a crime . Very few cases are cut and paste or cookie cutter perfect . As I'm sure the ex criminals you worked with would attest .

I worked with young offenders in an educational setting and each one would have proclaimed their innocence even though their history of offending was as long as my arm or they would not have been in my charge

Is keeping hold of records Lucy allegedly could have retrieved from a bin not akin to the trophies serial killers have been documented to keep of their victims imo it is !!

One could argue we all as posters have a morbid interest in this case but are other professionals who post here who may work in the same or similar settings to letby keeping files of charges whom die in their care at home I highly doubt it unless they are working from home
 
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  • #508
  • #509
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  • #510
  • #511
She should have been stopped earlier. We already know all this - it has been discussed in depth on this forum.

Yep.
She took advantage of the chaos this ward/hospital was.
She even became the "poster nurse" of the hospital in some kind of campaign.
Smiling "benevolently" at the viewers.
Ha!

:oops:

JMO
 
  • #512
Hospital policy does not require any exact records as its not a "controlled drug" ...in this instance their insulin storage was as it should be at the COCH
I think they are going to look at this in the thirwall enquiry though to see if it requires changing
Hospital policy does not require it agree - but i've worked in medical settings where despite being not "required" we had to record every ml of insulin and every other drug administered , controlled or not as the establishment had decided to implement measures above and beyond what was required so every ml was accounted for - just because its not "required" doesn't mean it isn't implemented in some healthcare and medical establishments....
 
  • #513
the doctors dont seems to have voiced there concerns with the pathologists if they did he must of for some reason ignored them
 
  • #514
One thing I think I can guarantee is everyone is getting paid. You think people like that just hand out news spots and interviews for free? Nope. They're getting their fifteen minutes, and they're milking it for whoever's willing to pay for their opinion on live tv.

MOO
maybe you could explain what makes you think everyone is getting paid? what do you have to back this up ?
 
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  • #515
dr lee and the the other 14 experts made it clear they were not getting paid
 
  • #516
The link you provided after this claim does not back up this particular claim. All it does is say there was no unusual spike in the death rate in 2015 and 2016. This is at odds with what David Spiegelhalter, the emeritus professor of statistics at the University of Cambridge claims, namely, the chances were less than 1%.
Spike in baby deaths in Lucy Letby unit warranted inquiry, says statistician

But Letby was not convicted solely on the basis of this unusual spike in deaths, i.e. statistics. It was a factor in the launch of the investigation to see what caused it.

Finally, you mention there were "12 other deaths" when Letby was "not on duty." Over what time period was this?
And this is very true!

We are still seeing articles which use variations on the "....Investigations were started after an unusual spike in deaths and collapses..." which is totally false. LL was under suspicion by a number of consultants for weeks, if not months, due to her constant presence and involvement with serious incidents.

The whole "spike in deaths raised suspicions" line is, as far as it appears to me, due to the fact that that is what the very early reports stated, either because they were simply looking for something to print or because they put two and two together and came up with six.

Her convictions are absolutely not reliant on the "fact" that the prosecution relied on this statistic as evidence against her because they didn't.
 
  • #517
circumstantial evidence is only evidence if it can be proven without doubt there are no other credible explanations
That is completely incorrect!

The whole point of "circumstantial" evidence is that it can be explained in more than one way. The jury gets to attach whatever weight and significance they choose to it.
 
  • #518
weather she was convicted on the medical evidence alone can only be known to the jury who convicted her but without the medical she couldn't of even been charged you can't charge someone with murder without producing medical that a murder has happened so you cant say that the medical evdence is irrelevant
 
  • #519
"she was a convenient scapegoat"

That's funny. If you had been "following the case for years", then you would know that the unit and its managers did its best to PROTECT Letby.
Indeed!

Imagine being a manager of a grossly failing department who's incompetence was beyond measure causing newborns to collapse and die with awful regularity, your best consultants come to you repeatedly complaining of a nurse who they are convinced is murdering babies. Why taf would you not throw said nurse under the bus and save your own skin? It would be madness not to!

Moreover, it's 100% plausible deniability because even if they're completely wrong you get to shrug your shoulders and say ..sorry, nothing to do with me, medical staff far more knowledgeable than I told me to do something or they'd call the cops... Absolute no-brainer.
 
  • #520
That is completely incorrect!

The whole point of "circumstantial" evidence is that it can be explained in more than one way. The jury gets to attach whatever weight and significance they choose to it.
Incorrect in your opinion - but my opinion and understanding is as I have written....you need to respect other posters opinions on here whether they fit with yours or not - this an open forum and we should all be welcome to express views and opinions ...this thread is clearly populated in the main by posters who believe LL is guilty as charged - I and some other posters on this thread believe her conviction is very unsafe and her being incarcerated is a miscarriage of justice - you may not agree - but the point of this thread is to stimulate respectful discussions and exchanges whatever our views on this case IMO so "This is completely incorrect !" is your opinion - I respect that ...but its your opinion - just that!
 
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