UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

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<modsnip - quoted post was removed, following concerns Dr. J>

I don't know what to say. I'd abstain from voicing an opinion about his personality. It is not about him. However, RJ clearly bent the truth in the case of Baby K. And that made me think, imagine J and B were oversuspicious, and accused LL of killing these babies. Then, the mere fact that Drs. Jay and Breary were sitting and thinking of different ways a nurse could kill babies, is deeply bothersome. They rushed to read, pulled out "Lee sign" and accused LL of causing venous embolism based on that. And then comes Dr. Lee, after whom the sign is named, and basically, explains that the good doctors obviously didn't read the article to the end because you can't diagnose venous embolism based on the rash, there is the second part to the story, about resuscitation.

As I remember, dr. Jay said, that he felt cold going down the spine when he saw that article, something like that...but then, he neither finished the article nor understood it. Based several accusations on it, though.

It doesn't look good for their case, IMHO.
 
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First, while Dr. Shoo K. Lee had training in behavioral sciences, please note, he did not comment on deceitful actions or lying or whatever. He commented on medical facts. In fact, that some of the ways the doctors accused LL of using to kill the babies made no sense.

RIGHT, and that is my point. He tried to base the entire verdict upon his interpretation of the medical reports. But everyone agrees that it is not cut and dry. No one can 100% determine if it was natural or malicious in most of these cases.

So we must look at the circumstantial evidence as well. And if the medical doctors cannot say with 100% certainty because they disagree with each other, then what other facts do we have?

If these were ALL natural deaths, why do all of them happen when one particular employee is present? Why do they not happen when she is away?

And if they are all natural deaths, why is one particular employee falsifying her medical logs and trying to create false timelines surrounding some of these deaths?

Why did she call the parents of one of the victims dishonest when they claim their baby was screaming and bleeding at 9 pm? They had evidence to corroborate those claims but Letby doubled down and continued to call them 'either lying or mistaken.' But they were being truthful and that is a big problem for Lucy.

It's a problem because Shoo-Lee says it is a natural death, but 4 other well respected medical experts say it appears to be a malicious death. And if the jury has to decide if it is malicious or natural, and they look at the nurse who was caring for the victims, and they see that she was deceitful and was lying about the circumstances of the deaths, then that is very suspicious.

Especially if there were 27 incidents, and the nurse behaved suspiciously and dishonestly in many of those 27 incidents.
Only interesting that "error" was in case of "baby K", wasn't it? That's where there was Dr. Jay with his amazing memory and looking at the watch, and a year later, showed memory gaps.

But you know what's most interesting? They said that LL killed the baby by dislodging the tube. Dr. Shoo Lee said the tube wasn't dislodged, but the caliber used for the tube was too small. Guess on whose watch was the intubation performed? Surprise...
That is Shoo-Lee's opinion about the tube but it is not a proven fact.

And yet it does not really matter because the jury looked at 27 charged incidents and only decided guilt upon the ones that seemed beyond a reasonable doubt.
It might be, or it might be an observation bias. Humans err.


I think it is not up to us. A year ago, i was just reading and observing the language. But I am not a neonatologist. It was a bothersome case. And now fourteen neonatologists came to UK, on own time and money, to question the validity of the conclusions. Kudos to them. They don't stand for their colleague. I truly doubt they ever saw LL. They studied the medical facts of the case. And they stand for truth and justice. I deeply respect Mr. Shoo Lee.
But that is exactly the problem. They didn't study the whole case. They don't know all of the circumstances.

Just looking at medical reports do not tell the whole truth of the matter. No one can 100% agree by looking at the reports.

Just like in a suicide case. A medical examiner can lean one way or another. But they cannot always know for sure if it was suicide or homicide. That's why they also investigate the surrounding circumstances---any notes left behind?---a troubled life? ---depression or terminal illness maybe?

It's the same thing here with the medical reports. Shoo-Lee cannot with 100% certainty prove that none were malicious actions. And the prosecution cannot 100% prove, just by the medical reports, that none were natural deaths.

So they need to take the investigation into the other circumstances into account as well. If you realise that there was a spike in unexplained, unexpected collapses, that all had odd things in common, that were highly unusual.

And the usual things they tested for in natural deaths did not show up as a common denominator here. But there was one common denominator in one specific employee that was always ever present. AND that employee left some very incriminating notes which seemed to be emotional confessions. And that same employee was found to have falsified some of her medical logs in order to distance herself from some of the incidents. And even lied about some of the logs and timelines, and was sometimes saying things that were in direct conflict with other witness testimonies.

When you look at the whole big picture, and stack up each brick, brick by brick, a wall of guilt is formed, imo.

In the trial we heard hundreds of her texts and DMS to friends and family and coworkers. They were very revealing. We read some of her journal writings, which were also very revealing. If you add it all together, you can see sh has much in common with other Munchausen by Proxy suffers. IMO
 
It states she called him at 9.30 not that he was there ...when he got there she showed him just blood speckled stomach content.
But exact timings from memory aside as mine may be be exact...the prosecution claim remains the same...letby tried to move the course of events forward an hour by not documenting the mums visit or conversation about blood ..and swearing blind in court the mum visited at 10pm

Should say mine may "not" be exact
 
I don't know what to say. I'd abstain from voicing an opinion about his personality. It is not about him. However, RJ clearly bent the truth in the case of Baby K. And that made me think, imagine J and B were oversuspicious, and accused LL of killing these babies. Then, the mere fact that Drs. Jay and Breary were sitting and thinking of different ways a nurse could kill babies, is deeply bothersome. They rushed to read, pulled out "Lee sign" and accused LL of causing venous embolism based on that. And then comes Dr. Lee, after whom the sign is named, and basically, explains that the good doctors obviously didn't read the article to the end because you can't diagnose venous embolism based on the rash, there is the second part to the story, about resuscitation.

As I remember, dr. Jay said, that he felt cold going down the spine when he saw that article, something like that...but then, he neither finished the article nor understood it. Based several accusations on it, though.

It doesn't look good for their case, IMHO.
Do you honestly believe she is innocent and is being railroaded by the doctors?

Is there a credible theory why these babies were suddenly, unexpectedly all sharing the same odd symptoms, that none of the specialists had ever seen before---but it only happened when a certain common denominator was present.

There was so much suspicion growing bout this one employee because she refused to step back, even though all of the collapses were happening to patients she was involved with. She worked the night shifts, when there were no patients around and were less nurses and doctors.

The doctors eventually had meetings with the superiors trying to get Letby a desk job while they tried to figure out why all these collapses were happening.But the Union rep backed Letby and denied that request.

So the doctors convinced the administration to change her from the all night shift to the day shift. NONE of the collapses had happened during the day shifts.

So guess what? As soon as she moved to the day shifts, all of the collapses began to happen in the daytime too.

Can anyone begin to see why the doctors were so suspicious? They had initially asked her nicely to step away from the critical care babies after the first 10 collapses happened---just so she could relax and recover. At the time they did not think she was involved maliciously, but thought it was weird that she was always in the mix. She even said so herself, that it was weird that it was 'happening to her.' But eventually some of the staff began wondering if she was involved.

If my coworkers were wondering aloud if I was harming newborn babies, I would want to prove I was not doing so. If they kept collapsing all around me, and my co-workers said maybe I should step back a minute and recover from the stress of it all, I'd do so, hoping that if the babies were still having problems and I was NOT present, then I could show my innocence.

But Letby doubled down and got the union to force them to keep her on duty in those same units or she would sue them.

And the babies kept collapsing. Even after she knew that the doctors suspected her, and wanted her on desk duty, the babies in her care kept having unexplained collapses. Some died.

When all the doctors could do was to change her to day shifts, the collapses changed to day shifts. When she went on a 2 week holiday---the collapses stopped.

The morning she returned, they began again. Baby O died that morning. Baby P collapsed that afternoon. She was finally taken off the floor that day.
 
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In jurisprudence, we have to base our opinion on evidence, not on emotions. Otherwise, any process can turn into a show trial. JMO.

Mind you, I am not commenting only on Lucy. The three doctors who just ran away with the article of Dr. Shoo Lee without bothering to call the author. Maybe they are so hypnotized by own belief that one can't get to them now. But, to me Dr. Shoo Lee is not only a worldwide-known, experienced neonatologist. He stands for fairness. He, the author, thinks that the doctors misunderstood his article. He, the neonatologist who was working at good hospitals, thinks that COCH care is substandard. He, a Ph.D. in economics (healthcare) from Harvard, can surely read into hospital statistics. And what does he say?

“In summary then, ladies and gentlemen, we did not find murders,” Lee said at a London news conference."

So many of these deaths were explained by Lucy "attacking" the babies and causing air embolism. The author of the article they cited says, no, this is not how it looks. He wrote that article. He knows. He says, colleagues, this is not what I have described.

I expect the first to seriously fall would be Dr. Dewi Evans.
Except the court of appeal has already considered Dr Shoo Lee's opinion and rejected it.

They said air embolism was diagnosed with through other factors. Namely sudden acute arrest and lack of response to normal resus techniques. These are both bonafide symptoms of air embolism.
 
Except the court of appeal has already considered Dr Shoo Lee's opinion and rejected it.

They said air embolism was diagnosed with through other factors. Namely sudden acute arrest and lack of response to normal resus techniques. These are both bonafide symptoms of air embolism.

It was dr. Lee who said about lack of response to resuscitative techniques. I don't remember reading about it in Dr. Evans deposition. They all speak about it now. Not during the trial.
 
Until I’m told otherwise by the courts of this land, then I continue to stand by the view that there’s been a fair conviction here until the courts determine otherwise

“Well, it is still the case that Lucy Letby is convicted of the crimes she was accused of. I know there is a campaign being waged, including by her legal team … and including some of my parliamentary colleagues,” he said.
 
Do you honestly believe she is innocent and is being railroaded by the doctors?

Is there a credible theory why these babies were suddenly, unexpectedly all sharing the same odd symptoms, that none of the specialists had ever seen before---but it only happened when a certain common denominator was present.

There was so much suspicion growing bout this one employee because she refused to step back, even though all of the collapses were happening to patients she was involved with. She worked the night shifts, when there were no patients around and were less nurses and doctors.

The doctors eventually had meetings with the superiors trying to get Letby a desk job while they tried to figure out why all these collapses were happening.But the Union rep backed Letby and denied that request.

So the doctors convinced the administration to change her from the all night shift to the day shift. NONE of the collapses had happened during the day shifts.

So guess what? As soon as she moved to the day shifts, all of the collapses began to happen in the daytime too.

Can anyone begin to see why the doctors were so suspicious? They had initially asked her nicely to step away from the critical care babies after the first 10 collapses happened---just so she could relax and recover. At the time they did not think she was involved maliciously, but thought it was weird that she was always in the mix. She even said so herself, that it was weird that it was 'happening to her.' But eventually some of the staff began wondering if she was involved.

If my coworkers were wondering aloud if I was harming newborn babies, I would want to prove I was not doing so. If they kept collapsing all around me, and my co-workers said maybe I should step back a minute and recover from the stress of it all, I'd do so, hoping that if the babies were still having problems and I was NOT present, then I could show my innocence.

But Letby doubled down and got the union to force them to keep her on duty in those same units or she would sue them.

And the babies kept collapsing. Even after she knew that the doctors suspected her, and wanted her on desk duty, the babies in her care kept having unexplained collapses. Some died.

When all the doctors could do was to change her to day shifts, the collapses changed to day shifts. When she went on a 2 week holiday---the collapses stopped.

The morning she returned, they began again. Baby O died that morning. Baby P collapsed that afternoon. She was finally taken off the floor that day.
I don't see any new evidence whatsoever. Everything they are suggesting are things that were discussed in depth at the trial and rebuked or rejected by the experts.

Its almost like they don't have anything new so they are repackaging the same stuff.

The CCRC would surely take a very dim view of the defence "expert shopping"

As for Shoo Lee, he has purposely gone back and modified his original paper. How can that possibly be admissable as evidence, when you consider he is currently working for the defence and has done so in light of his rejection. He was also told after the rejection by Mark McDonald that he would have to go back and find something extraordinary for the CCRC to take notice.

Am I the only person who thinks this is absolutely ridiculous? If the subject wasn't so tragic it would be laughable. These people seem to have no awareness of the desperation.
 
Do you honestly believe she is innocent and is being railroaded by the doctors?

Is there a credible theory why these babies were suddenly, unexpectedly all sharing the same odd symptoms, that none of the specialists had ever seen before---but it only happened when a certain common denominator was present.

There was so much suspicion growing bout this one employee because she refused to step back, even though all of the collapses were happening to patients she was involved with. She worked the night shifts, when there were no patients around and were less nurses and doctors.

The doctors eventually had meetings with the superiors trying to get Letby a desk job while they tried to figure out why all these collapses were happening.But the Union rep backed Letby and denied that request.

So the doctors convinced the administration to change her from the all night shift to the day shift. NONE of the collapses had happened during the day shifts.

So guess what? As soon as she moved to the day shifts, all of the collapses began to happen in the daytime too.

Can anyone begin to see why the doctors were so suspicious? They had initially asked her nicely to step away from the critical care babies after the first 10 collapses happened---just so she could relax and recover. At the time they did not think she was involved maliciously, but thought it was weird that she was always in the mix. She even said so herself, that it was weird that it was 'happening to her.' But eventually some of the staff began wondering if she was involved.

If my coworkers were wondering aloud if I was harming newborn babies, I would want to prove I was not doing so. If they kept collapsing all around me, and my co-workers said maybe I should step back a minute and recover from the stress of it all, I'd do so, hoping that if the babies were still having problems and I was NOT present, then I could show my innocence.

But Letby doubled down and got the union to force them to keep her on duty in those same units or she would sue them.

And the babies kept collapsing. Even after she knew that the doctors suspected her, and wanted her on desk duty, the babies in her care kept having unexplained collapses. Some died.

When all the doctors could do was to change her to day shifts, the collapses changed to day shifts. When she went on a 2 week holiday---the collapses stopped.

The morning she returned, they began again. Baby O died that morning. Baby P collapsed that afternoon. She was finally taken off the floor that day.
About Lucy? Absolutely unclear what with the general mess around the case. Let's see. But what Jay says now sounds disjointed, tbh. Breary always looks the same, sort of a male version of Lucy. Evans is a very weak figure for the prosecution. To me, he looks incompetent, sorry.
 
They rushed to read, pulled out "Lee sign" and accused LL of causing venous embolism based on that. And then comes Dr. Lee, after whom the sign is named, and basically, explains that the good doctors obviously didn't read the article to the end because you can't diagnose venous embolism based on the rash, there is the second part to the story, about resuscitation.

As I remember, dr. Jay said, that he felt cold going down the spine when he saw that article, something like that...but then, he neither finished the article nor understood it. Based several accusations on it, though.

It doesn't look good for their case, IMHO.
RSBM

They reached the conclusion about air embolus by relying on a combination of factors. It was thrown out of CoA because a combination of factors were used to show AE in court not just the “Lee Sign”.
 
About Lucy? Absolutely unclear what with the general mess around the case. Let's see. But what Jay says now sounds disjointed, tbh. Breary always looks the same, sort of a male version of Lucy. Evans is a very weak figure for the prosecution. To me, he looks incompetent, sorry.
So you judge peoples worth based on their appearance?
 
Should say mine may "not" be exact
I have just re listened to c2c’s video- originally Dr H stated he didn’t arrive on the ward until 10.10- but under cross he conceded he was in fact with baby E at 9.30.
 
Regarding retrieving notes from the bin being akin to serial killers keeping trophies. I see what you're saying that it arguably fits with a bigger picture in which she's guilty of the crimes. But given the fact that there is no concrete evidence, as you admit, the bar for circumstantial evidence to put someone away for life has to be exceedingly high. And the way you would determine her guilt or not is by reviewing the evidence against her and then comparing that to the null hypothesis that she is innocent. So yes, perhaps retrieving notes from the bin on babies she has murdered is one plausible scenario. But her morbidly retrieving notes from the bin on babies who have died in her care is just as plausible and in my opinion a lot more probable. Why? Because remember, the statistics here have been shown to be basically a red herring. So what's more likely, a serial killer murdering babies or babies dying tragically from natural causes and systemic failures and a nurse with a morbid curiosity in collecting information on them.

I suppose reasonable people can disagree, but it strikes me that when you add up the individual probabilites of any one part of Letby's behaviour all together, when you arrive at that full picture and give honest objective odds on how likely it therefore is that she's a killer, I still think it's looking significantly less probable than the other explanation. Given what we know. Serial killers are incredibly incredibly rare. And these failings that led to the deaths might be a lot more likely to have been the cause.

I'm not saying the case was solely made up of statistical or medical evidence, but when those two have been so discredited, the conviction looks unsafe. If 14 or 30 experts pop up in a few months arguing Dr Lee and co are way off, that they're absolutely adamant that air embolism and so on *were* present, at that point I think it would be up to a jury to decide which experts are more plausible and weigh all the other evidence in light of that. But I would say so far it seems pretty telling that most if not all of the experts who have spoken out after the trial have been questioning aspects of the case against her. I haven't really seen anyone coming out strongly in support of the original medical or statistical evidence. If anyone has seen anything compelling then I'm still keeping an open mind.
An open mind is always a positive trait to possess and I agree with your argument re whether or not the conviction is safe .
I also think while experts are arguing the toss of whether statistics and certain aspects of the medical evidence were factually presented to the jury your average Joe Public is going to assume this means Lucy is innocent or at the very least wasn't given a fair trial .

But to me this is not a black and white affair .There is a grey area. By this I mean the sum of all evidence. The balance of probabilities. How much of the other evidence do we disregard and put it down as morbid fascination . Is the definition of morbid fascination defined within the scope of the individuals lust for the macabre . Does this personality trait allow us to just excuse behaviour as a hobby .surely we could debate that all serial killers have morbid fantasies . Or does the inclusion of this type of behaviour point towards a person whom was present being more guilty than a person whom was present that doesn't have this fascination.

I don't know every last detail of the case but in my mind .The families have been through enough without experts looking at the case as some form of peer review paper study . I don't think their interest is solely based on proving a condemned woman innocent tbh

I feel letby implicated herself towards a guilty verdict by having such a seemingly fanatic interest in the dead babies files and families and her alleged collection of "mementos " or trophies whichever label you want to put on them ,Gave the medical theories weight . Her actions and lack of emotion towards the babies deaths in court and beforehand also lend credence to her guilt .

I personally cannot understand how the only time she shed a tear was when her doctor lover spoke and it speaks volumes as to what was her priority which was to gain attention from this man .Did she kill the babies so she could be around this doctor more often than was permitted if things were running smoothly? Lucy seems quite immature. Creating drama to see a person whom we lust after is not unheard of in the realms of teenage behaviour. Did Lucy just step this behaviour up a notch ?

I'm interested in the findings of the current investigation into the hospital in Liverpool. I think the outcome of this may sway the public opinion as to whether they think Lucy is guilty or innocent.

In the absence of compelling medical evidence does all the other factors of the case stack up to a guilty verdict . The babies died when they should have survived. Did babies die when Lucy stopped working there or when she was moved to another area of the hospital or when she went on holiday ? There is many ways of summing up a person's guilt . You don't have to prove the medical evidence is 100% bona-fide. You just have to prove the person is guilty beyond reasonable doubt and Lucy imo left little to doubt
 
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I have just re listened to c2c’s video- originally Dr H stated he didn’t arrive on the ward until 10.10- but under cross he conceded he was in fact with baby E at 9.30.
Just managed to listen to the first 20 min ...it's amazing how much detail there was used ..you forget the amount.
The part I heard said his documentation was 22.10 ...but in cross said "he may" have been on the unit at 21.30 ...not sure with baby E though.
But either way LL tried to make it look like it all happened later by documentation.
I think the difference between her version and the mums must have been very powerful to the Jury ..I remember it being so to me also
 
An open mind is always a positive trait to possess and I agree with your argument re whether or not the conviction is safe .
I also think while experts are arguing the toss of whether statistics and certain aspects of the medical evidence were factually presented to the jury your average Joe Public is going to assume this means Lucy is innocent or at the very least wasn't given a fair trial .

But to me this is not a black and white affair .There is a grey area. By this I mean the sum of all evidence. The balance of probabilities. How much of the other evidence do we disregard and put it down as morbid fascination . Is the definition of morbid fascination defined within the scope of the individuals lust for the macabre . Does this personality trait allow us to just excuse behaviour as a hobby .surely we could debate that all serial killers have morbid fantasies . Or does the inclusion of this type of behaviour point towards a person whom was present being more guilty than a person whom was present that doesn't have this fascination.

I don't know every last detail of the case but in my mind .The families have been through enough without experts looking at the case as some form of peer review paper study . I don't think their interest is solely based on proving a condemned woman innocent tbh

I feel letby implicated herself towards a guilty verdict by having such a seemingly fanatic interest in the dead babies files and families and her alleged collection of "mementos " or trophies whichever label you want to put on them ,Gave the medical theories weight . Her actions and lack of emotion towards the babies deaths in court and beforehand also lend credence to her guilt .

I personally cannot understand how the only time she shed a tear was when her doctor lover spoke and it speaks volumes as to what was her priority which was to gain attention from this man .Did she kill the babies so she could be around this doctor more often than was permitted if things were running smoothly? Lucy seems quite immature. Creating drama to see a person whom we lost after is not unheard of in the realms of teenage behaviour. Did Lucy just step this behaviour up a notch ?

I'm interested in the findings of the current investigation into the hospital in Liverpool. I think the outcome of this may sway the public opinion as to whether they think Lucy is guilty or innocent.

In the absence of compelling medical evidence does all the other factors of the case stack up to a guilty verdict . The babies died when they should have survived. Did babies die when Lucy stopped working there or when she was moved to another area of the hospital or when she went on holiday ? There is many ways of summing up a person's guilt . You don't have to prove the medical evidence is 100% bona-fide. You just have to prove the person is guilty beyond reasonable doubt and Lucy imo left little to doubt

She had her chance while being on the stand during the trial.

It was the time to discuss and explain everything.
To defend herself, to show her point of view,
to convince the Jury of her innocence.

To clarify issues concerning the notes, documents taken home, FB searches, behaviour towards parents, dead Babies
and many, many other things.

It is privilege to be able to show one's perspective to Jurors,
to fight for good name.

To fight for non guilty verdict.

I don't think LL took adequate advantage of this.
The Jurors weren't convinced by her.

JMO
 
She had her chance while being on the stand during the trial.

It was the time to discuss and explain everything.
To defend herself, to show her point of view,
to convince the Jury of her innocence.

To clarify issues concerning the notes, documents taken home, FB searches, behaviour towards parents, dead Babies
and many, many other things.

It is privilege to be able to show one's perspective to Jurors,
to fight for good name.

To fight for non guilty verdict.

I don't think LL took adequate advantage of this.
The Jurors weren't convinced by her.

JMO
Fully agree Dotta . Imo Lucy letby is guilty . I think all this new "evidence " is hogwash . She had her chance to prove innocence in two trials the fact of the matter is she couldn't as she murdered those innocent and most vulnerable of babies .
The only injustice I can see is those families have to have their grief dragged through the mud again by a narcissistic witch
 
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