UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

[Tortoise]

"If"

Yes, such a giveaway word.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I've worked in patient records before. It's definitely under lock and key. Without knowing what software they use I can't really say anything but there is often a national database. I can't help but think it would be a different database for a NNU though. I reckon she would still have full access as she wasn't actually on disciplinary or restricted duties.

 

[Anxala]

Unmasking Lucy Letby by Jonathan Coffey and Judith Moritz review — of course she did it, but WHY?

A book mainly on that subject.

Unmasking Lucy Letby by Jonathan Coffey and Judith Moritz review — of course she did it, but why?

The BBC journalist who followed the story since it emerged and her Panorama producer, who harbours doubts, form the perfect pair to make sense of this horrific case

www.thetimes.com

I read various articles/interviews with the authors on this book over the weekend and came across some criticism of it in comments, primarily that it was written before the Inquiry and that it would have been a much more compelling and insightful read had they waited until the Inquiry was over and not rushed to publish.

Essentially, that had they waited, their take on LL would not be centred on the 'nice quiet beige Lucy' that still seemed to dominate post-trial but on the deeply unpleasant, petulant, gaslighting, low-cunning Lucy that was revealed in the Inquiry. That that's the LL that should have informed this book for it to be a worthwhile exercise.

I haven't read the book but wonder what those who have think about that.

 

[Highlandspring]

I read various articles/interviews with the authors on this book over the weekend and came across some criticism of it in comments, primarily that it was written before the Inquiry and that it would have been a much more compelling and insightful read had they waited until the Inquiry was over and not rushed to publish.

Essentially, that had they waited, their take on LL would not be centred on the 'nice quiet beige Lucy' that still seemed to dominate post-trial but on the deeply unpleasant, petulant, gaslighting, low-cunning Lucy that was revealed in the Inquiry. That that's the LL that should have informed this book for it to be a worthwhile exercise.

I haven't read the book but wonder what those who have think about that.

I've seen similar so won't bother with this one.

One striking point though was about the New Yorker journo (Rachel Aviv?) and her total misinformation re one of her interviews with an insulin 'expert'.

This expert's criticism of the contested insulin results, a big part of RA's NY piece which incensed the LL deniers has been debunked.

Maybe someone can fill in some detail if they've got the energy after ploughing through it.

 

[Highlandspring]

I've seen similar so won't bother with this one.

One striking point though was about the New Yorker journo (Rachel Aviv?) and her total misinformation re one of her interviews with an insulin 'expert'.

This expert's criticism of the contested insulin results, a big part of RA's NY piece which incensed the LL deniers has been debunked.

Maybe someone can fill in some detail if they've got the energy after ploughing through it.

Apologies. The fact was that Aviv/NY hadn't given the insulin expert all the clinical/medical background so he/she was working blind, and after reviewing the background agreed that the prosecution evidence was correct.

 

[shesfixingherhair]

Here's an interesting article.

"In one text, sent in May 2017, almost a year after Letby had been removed from the unit, Mrs Rees wrote: ‘Hang in there, girl…your nursing team are fully behind you. We will get through this, lol (lots of love) K.’"

Think KR is saying yeh the docs are at you but your fellow nurses have got your back.

SBM. Do people really use “lol” to mean “lots of love”?

 

[Sweeper2000]

SBM. Do people really use “lol” to mean “lots of love”?

She must have that's her quote verbatim. Might be a turn of phrase. That's so far from professional. No wonder Lucy was thinking about her all the time.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I read various articles/interviews with the authors on this book over the weekend and came across some criticism of it in comments, primarily that it was written before the Inquiry and that it would have been a much more compelling and insightful read had they waited until the Inquiry was over and not rushed to publish.

Essentially, that had they waited, their take on LL would not be centred on the 'nice quiet beige Lucy' that still seemed to dominate post-trial but on the deeply unpleasant, petulant, gaslighting, low-cunning Lucy that was revealed in the Inquiry. That that's the LL that should have informed this book for it to be a worthwhile exercise.

I haven't read the book but wonder what those who have think about that.

I do definitely think she is beige as in unremarkable but I actually give more credence to her being a bit of a madame if one can forgive the terminology. She's cold but feigns empathy as instructed and that's a mask the way people fake sympathy. She is OK with doing things at other people's expense and is deceitful. Likes to gossip. As you say petulant, seems to throw tantrums when not getting own way, also as you say "low cunning" the type that doesn't recognise when she's caught telling lies, non maternal in nature, self centred and yes "rules apply but only to others" essentially weaponises rules against others whilst not really following them herself. NJ got that one right I think. When I say non maternal I also mean in my experience that they tend to be actively hostile to children, kids need patience and warmth and a madame lacks it imo. Also yes in my experience madames are the "wolf in sheep's clothing". To all others except the chosen victim appears as nice. Essentially the type who also weaponises the social structure and triangulates onto target. Nearly always quite narcissistic as in "Image based thinking applies here". I go with that but yes she is also the "plain jane" which by itself is good. Madames also have a tendency imo to seek praise and validation in line with narc tendencies we do see plenty of it. I also believe she's the type to enjoy the thought that she has deceived people, finds that self flattering.

Obviously there is plenty of madames in the world but I think take an average one and amplify it's negative personality traits to the extreme and we get someone like Lucy letby.

One other thing I think I have noticed about that type. They genuinely struggle to display any insight into others experience in life and do tend to think "others loss is my gain" apply that to babies and we get what we have seen. It would take a flat and immensely cold individual to do as she has done.

Remember was the police who said she is beige. They knew her well but that's just the majority of her behaviour and outward appearance. You only get to the real bit on closer inspection and I think its wise to judge the two "plain" and "madame" by its impact on others.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think Dr Brearey didn't want it to give her the files as could easily be "lost".

“So I said to him will you share the contents of that drawer, of which he refused. He just said she needs to be moved off the neonatal unit. I am aware that she’s on this weekend.

“So I said to him: ‘I can’t remove a nurse from a clinical practice just because you’ve got a feeling and a drawer of doom which … you will not share with me. So I wasn’t getting anywhere with him.”

Access Restricted

That's a possibility but he could have copied them.

The points made for not taking her off , in this instance at least, are quite valid; you can't just mess with people's jobs on the word of someone who say they have loads of evidence but won't hand it over.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Here's an interesting take on herself. Not psychopath, not narccy but borderline. Interesting.

"But Dr Crawford believes that doesn’t ring true here: “She doesn’t seem psychopathic to me. She appears more like an inadequate woman who’s living a very empty life that has this real need for fulfilment.”

I really agree with that last statement. It has application to some of the behaviours we have seen. Could also explain the motive, she was doing it for the thrill. Was this the only way "she felt alive".

"Professor Mark Freestone agrees that Letby doesn’t display symptoms of psychopathy. An expert on forensic mental health, he’s worked in prisons and the NHS with some of the UK’s most notorious and high-risk criminals. He points out that psychopathy is not as well understood in women as it is in men but says the associated antisocial behaviours “are things that just don’t occur in women with anything like the same kind of frequency”."

Google News

Comprehensive, up-to-date news coverage, aggregated from sources all over the world by Google News.

news.google.com

I don't think I agree with that, tbh.

Okay, she may think of herself as being "inadequate" but "empty life"? I'm not so sure. She was fairly popular, had friends, job she always aspired to, house, car, went on multiple holidays each year,always out with people dancing and bar hopping.

Seems to me like she had a very busy and fulfilled life. The one thing that seemed to be missing - and I think it was the case all her life - is a boyfriend/husband/partner. I don't know why that is but I'm sure she could have got that if she chose to.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I know, Sweeper, but, bottom line, only LL knows why she did it. And since she's still presenting herself as innocent of all charges, we're unlikely to ever know what motivated and drove her.

Personally, I don't think she has the slightest clue. My opinion is that most serial killers don't.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I've just watched the Panorama episode and my impression of it is that all the sceptics are ignoring how the law is applied in this country. "Beyond reasonable doubt" is a high bar, which is intended to reduce the risk of wrongful convictions. It does not mean that juries have to be absolutely convinced about every element of a case. Likewise, the sceptic "experts" are simply nitpicking the scientific assertions made in court without consideration for the totality of the evidence that was available (which is what led to those conclusions). Legal trials in the UK are not about truth-finding. There can be certainty about someone's guilt with uncertainty over precisely how the crimes were committed.

Those aren't the words used, today. Juries are instructed with the phrase "...so that you are sure..."

 

[iamshadow21]

Personally, I don't think she has the slightest clue. My opinion is that most serial killers don't.

There are a few who are a little more self aware, but I agree, most don't look beyond 'it makes me feel powerful/godlike/orgasmic/cathartic and I want to keep doing it'. It pushes a button in their brain that most of us get from sex, chocolate, gambling or video games, times a thousand, and after that, everything else palls. It's the culmination of fantasies that sometimes date back to puberty, sometimes even early childhood.

Now, plenty of people live with violent or intrusive thoughts. The vast majority of those people choose kindness and restraint and never hurt a soul.

But serial killers don't just indulge those thoughts, they dive in wilfully and partake with gusto and their lives revolve around making them real. They don't, in my opinion, spend their time on agonising and self reflection. And I don't think Letby is any different. Her notes presented at trial certainly don't convince me of any kind of conscience, just frustration and frantic anger at losing her status and hunting ground and many of her sources of narcissistic supply.

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

That's a possibility but he could have copied them.

The points made for not taking her off , in this instance at least, are quite valid; you can't just mess with people's jobs on the word of someone who say they have loads of evidence but won't hand it over.

That's a very valid point only thing is that it nullifies the only reason he would hold onto them in my perspective. Ohhhh unless it was actually a strategic move? He may have thought that he didn't actually have much but if he holds onto this "evidence" proceeds with the investigation then the investigators are in control not the managers. Also if anything is found then it looks bad on the managers doesn't it? As it does very much so currently. He's kind of bluffing it, banking on investigators not siding with the managers. Makes sense to me, he wanted Lucy off the unit and that was what he was aiming for at first. That's his move kind of saying "if you don't get her off the unit Im Going to send this to all of our big bosses and your going to be in the deep end". All the while knowing he didn't have much in reality but banking on the investigation finding something which it did but years after extremely rigorous inspection.

Does that make sense? Does to me. Especially as we know he said to someone something about a "hunch" or something.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't think I agree with that, tbh.

Okay, she may think of herself as being "inadequate" but "empty life"? I'm not so sure. She was fairly popular, had friends, job she always aspired to, house, car, went on multiple holidays each year,always out with people dancing and bar hopping.

Seems to me like she had a very busy and fulfilled life. The one thing that seemed to be missing - and I think it was the case all her life - is a boyfriend/husband/partner. I don't know why that is but I'm sure she could have got that if she chose to.

I'm not sure I would agree with that. She had all of those things but did she find anything in having them? Do those things fill the blank? Or fill the blank vacant stare with enthusiasm and life?

You might be able to tentatively suggest the lack of an intimate partner means she may not actually get much out of her relationships.

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm not sure I would agree with that. She had all of those things but did she find anything in having them? Do those things fill the blank? Or fill the blank vacant stare with enthusiasm and life?

You might be able to tentatively suggest the lack of an intimate partner means she may not actually get much out of her relationships.

I think the reason why she comes across as bland or beige is that all that public stuff was essentially her mask. Living life like a paint by numbers. Faking something she's got no real concept of how to present authentically.

All those handover sheets under her bed tell us more about the true Letby than any of her decor, any of her hen party photos. She was sleeping every night with her trophies right under her, and she knew it. Like the serial killer she is.

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think the reason why she comes across as bland or beige is that all that public stuff was essentially her mask. Living life like a paint by numbers. Faking something she's got no real concept of how to present authentically.

All those handover sheets under her bed tell us more about the true Letby than any of her decor, any of her hen party photos. She was sleeping every night with her trophies right under her, and she knew it. Like the serial killer she is.

MOO

Agreed. To me I always question peoples sense of inner fulfillment. This relates to the way you can find people who despite being very wealthy seem to find no enjoyment or actual positives from it. "Enough is never enough" kind of folks. It's relative to narcissism as well, why if so successful is there a NEED for validation? It's a false sense of self, an externalisation of a invented self which is obviously hollow and vacant. Trying to fill a all consuming black hole with external in origin matter. No matter what they do or have they just can't get enough to sate that need.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think the reason why she comes across as bland or beige is that all that public stuff was essentially her mask. Living life like a paint by numbers. Faking something she's got no real concept of how to present authentically.

All those handover sheets under her bed tell us more about the true Letby than any of her decor, any of her hen party photos. She was sleeping every night with her trophies right under her, and she knew it. Like the serial killer she is.

MOO

Yes, I think that pretty much sums her up, tbh.

 

[Anxala]

There are a few who are a little more self aware, but I agree, most don't look beyond 'it makes me feel powerful/godlike/orgasmic/cathartic and I want to keep doing it'. It pushes a button in their brain that most of us get from sex, chocolate, gambling or video games, times a thousand, and after that, everything else palls. It's the culmination of fantasies that sometimes date back to puberty, sometimes even early childhood.

Now, plenty of people live with violent or intrusive thoughts. The vast majority of those people choose kindness and restraint and never hurt a soul.

But serial killers don't just indulge those thoughts, they dive in wilfully and partake with gusto and their lives revolve around making them real. They don't, in my opinion, spend their time on agonising and self reflection. And I don't think Letby is any different. Her notes presented at trial certainly don't convince me of any kind of conscience, just frustration and frantic anger at losing her status and hunting ground and many of her sources of narcissistic supply.

MOO

Agree with this but my earlier point re LL being the only person who knows and can throw any light on who and what she is and why she did what she did still stands. In that, should she ever, in time, decide to unload - not to confess obviously, just to unload, to talk - only then could the beginnings of any informed assessments or conclusions be made about her. Which is the point I was responding to regarding speculation about her motivation.

She remains the only person that can ever throw any type of clear light on her.

Everything else in the interim and in the absence of that happening will always be just speculative noise.

 

[Parker Knoll]

She will deny this until the day she dies.