this is why doctor lee got involved My research was misused to convict Lucy Letby — so I did my own inquiry
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36
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In October, a selective summary of evidence from nurses was “read into the record” at the Thirlwall Inquiry but, until now, their full statements have not been released, despite requests from The Telegraph.
On Monday night, the inquiry quietly published the statements, which show that none of the nurses suspected Letby, but did have worries about under-staffing and cleanliness on the unit.
Over 40 witness statements from people who worked with LL have been uploaded onto the Thirlwall Inquiry website.
On Monday night, the inquiry quietly published the statements, which show that none of the nurses suspected Letby, but did have worries about under-staffing and cleanliness on the unit.
Over 40 witness statements from people who worked with LL have been uploaded onto the Thirlwall Inquiry website.
Yeah this guy is not in it for the right reasons IMO. Very abnormal and classic to claim you’re the one true answer to everything. Where have we heard that before…Trump, that water searcher in the tragic Nicola Bulley case.
IMO Hospital acquired infections are common throughout all wards and intensive care units partly due to contamination and partly due to the fact hosts are immune compromised and also have had lower level antibiotics multiple rounds already leading to the preferential growth of resistant organisms that form biofilms and are less penetrable.
It’s also easy as a layperson to confuse the presence of certain bacteria for infection - this is notoriously difficult to do - have linked guidelines to the difficulties diagnosing VAP as well as distinguishing infection from colonisation when it comes to bugs. Contamination of a foreign surface such as ET tube is not the same as systemic infection in the host. Contaminated lines and tubes are just a feature of non biological devices that cannot be surveilled by our own immune system. Not saying some of these infections will contribute to patient harm and didn’t in this case but it’s just not believable that infection/sepsis suddenly quadrupled the year letby worked at countess of Chester leading to a spike of deaths from 2/3 a year to 13 + 4 that were transferred - nearly all collapses that also occurred on letby. That just isn’t how infection works?! Never mind not all these babies showed signs of infection.
But see how easy it is also for the defence to cherry pick what they say - any clinician worth their salt knows there is no black and white in medicine - furthermore it can be difficult sizing ET tubes in paeds/neonates - see paper linked below - because they’re sized by age - but we know kids range in size for their age. It is common to have to upsize or downsize in babies - and one would tend to opt for a smaller tube in an emergency as they’re more likely to go in first time - allowing for fastest oxygenation even if a leak occurs…see link to difficulties sizing neonatal tubes below.
Colonization and infection - PMC
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Diagnosis of ventilator-associated pneumonia in critically ill adult patients—a systematic review and meta-analysis - PMC
The accuracy of the signs and tests that clinicians use to diagnose ventilator-associated pneumonia (VAP) and initiate antibiotic treatment has not been well characterized. We sought to characterize and compare the accuracy of physical examination, ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Choice of the correct size of endotracheal tube in pediatric patients - PMC
Selection and insertion of an endotracheal tube (ETT) of appropriate size for airway management during general anesthesia in pediatric patients is very important. A very small ETT increases the risk of inadequate ventilation, air leakage, and ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
In my opinion, re Shoo-Lee, this is a “me me me show”.
The refused appeal already took into account his opinion on bits of evidence - this isn’t new.
Furthermore Modi, the ex chair of college of paediatrics isn’t impartial, she led review of the NiCU letby worked at prior to Letbys arrest and accusation, which was criticised in the wake of later revelations - she is cleaning up her own reputation too.
To discuss footling breech - absolutely does happen, especially when child is premature - most scans / palpitations wouldn’t care if you weren’t head down before 36 weeks - so if you go into labour before then it can come out any which way. Additionally plenty of mums do things we would see as objectively riskier as part of autonomy and birth preference - including high risk pregnancies wanting home births, there are people out there who want to deliver breeches vaginally believe it or not.
Professor Hindmarsh is a professor of paediatric endocrinology / he did the analyses on Baby F and L, considered insulin poisoning, I suspect in his thirty odd year career he is aware of insulin and c peptide in neonates given the burden of endocrine issues in this age group. Perinatal endocrinology: common endocrine disorders in the sick and premature newborn - PubMed
I think Letby is calculating and used the cover of sick and premature infants to engineer their collapses and deaths for longer than otherwise, just as shipman used the cover of elderly women to engineer their deaths. JMO
The nursing staff weren’t told about the unexpected deaths, suspicions of letby harming babies or any suspicions at all - as per this article Inquiry: Letby ‘excited’ to tell colleagues about baby death | Nursing Times
Others have come forward and said she was odd and inappropriate about certain deaths or the way she dealt with parents. It also feels to me like LL made out in grievances this was a witch hunt and having her reputation etc ruined, when actually it was clearly kept under wraps. Keeping an entire nursing body out of the loop does represent a poor culture though, and I can’t imagine how that was actually kept secret! All JMO
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Ann Diamond’s is a different situation, lost a child to SIDS. I remember how first reading about the position of the babies with SIDS (on the stomach) and that SIDS often ran in families, I thought, could these kids have had narcolepsy, which is an autosomal-dominant condition and also runs in families? Now we have more information; the two conditions indeed seem to be somehow linked; both have underlying deficiency in the arousal system.
Cerebrospinal Fluid Histamine Levels in Healthy Children and Potential Implication for SIDS: Observational Study in a French Tertiary Care Hospital - PMC
A defect of the waking systems could constitute a factor of vulnerability for sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). A decrease in orexin levels, which promotes wakefulness and activates histaminergic neurons (another hypothalamic wake-promoting ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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there was allot of chatter amongst the workforce about lucy letby. this from the junior docs
Junior doctors referred to Lucy Letby as "Nurse Death", a public inquiry has heard.
www.bbc.co.uk
lets also not forget that the nurses and docs did seem too have a big division amongst them so the docs wouldnt see allot of the "not nice lucy"
Junior doctors referred to Lucy Letby as "Nurse Death", a public inquiry has heard.
Junior doctors called Lucy Letby 'Nurse Death', inquiry told
The NHS's response to serial killer Lucy Letby's crimes is being examined in a public inquiry.
www.bbc.co.uk
lets also not forget that the nurses and docs did seem too have a big division amongst them so the docs wouldnt see allot of the "not nice lucy"
i found this bit ery intresting
The inquiry heard one of the CQC inspectors, Elizabeth Childs, did not recall having a discussion about increased, unexpected or unexplained neonatal deaths during the inspection.
The inquiry heard one of the CQC inspectors, Elizabeth Childs, did not recall having a discussion about increased, unexpected or unexplained neonatal deaths during the inspection.
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Yeah this guy is not in it for the right reasons IMO. Very abnormal and classic to claim you’re the one true answer to everything. Where have we heard that before…Trump, that water searcher in the tragic Nicola Bulley case.
IMO Hospital acquired infections are common throughout all wards and intensive care units partly due to contamination and partly due to the fact hosts are immune compromised and also have had lower level antibiotics multiple rounds already leading to the preferential growth of resistant organisms that form biofilms and are less penetrable.
It’s also easy as a layperson to confuse the presence of certain bacteria for infection - this is notoriously difficult to do - have linked guidelines to the difficulties diagnosing VAP as well as distinguishing infection from colonisation when it comes to bugs. Contamination of a foreign surface such as ET tube is not the same as systemic infection in the host. Contaminated lines and tubes are just a feature of non biological devices that cannot be surveilled by our own immune system. Not saying some of these infections will contribute to patient harm and didn’t in this case but it’s just not believable that infection/sepsis suddenly quadrupled the year letby worked at countess of Chester leading to a spike of deaths from 2/3 a year to 13 + 4 that were transferred - nearly all collapses that also occurred on letby. That just isn’t how infection works?! Never mind not all these babies showed signs of infection.
But see how easy it is also for the defence to cherry pick what they say - any clinician worth their salt knows there is no black and white in medicine - furthermore it can be difficult sizing ET tubes in paeds/neonates - see paper linked below - because they’re sized by age - but we know kids range in size for their age. It is common to have to upsize or downsize in babies - and one would tend to opt for a smaller tube in an emergency as they’re more likely to go in first time - allowing for fastest oxygenation even if a leak occurs…see link to difficulties sizing neonatal tubes below.
Colonization and infection - PMC
Diagnosis of ventilator-associated pneumonia in critically ill adult patients—a systematic review and meta-analysis - PMC
The accuracy of the signs and tests that clinicians use to diagnose ventilator-associated pneumonia (VAP) and initiate antibiotic treatment has not been well characterized. We sought to characterize and compare the accuracy of physical examination, ...
Choice of the correct size of endotracheal tube in pediatric patients - PMC
Selection and insertion of an endotracheal tube (ETT) of appropriate size for airway management during general anesthesia in pediatric patients is very important. A very small ETT increases the risk of inadequate ventilation, air leakage, and ...
In my opinion, re Shoo-Lee, this is a “me me me show”.
The refused appeal already took into account his opinion on bits of evidence - this isn’t new.
Furthermore Modi, the ex chair of college of paediatrics isn’t impartial, she led review of the NiCU letby worked at prior to Letbys arrest and accusation, which was criticised in the wake of later revelations - she is cleaning up her own reputation too.
To discuss footling breech - absolutely does happen, especially when child is premature - most scans / palpitations wouldn’t care if you weren’t head down before 36 weeks - so if you go into labour before then it can come out any which way. Additionally plenty of mums do things we would see as objectively riskier as part of autonomy and birth preference - including high risk pregnancies wanting home births, there are people out there who want to deliver breeches vaginally believe it or not.
Professor Hindmarsh is a professor of paediatric endocrinology / he did the analyses on Baby F and L, considered insulin poisoning, I suspect in his thirty odd year career he is aware of insulin and c peptide in neonates given the burden of endocrine issues in this age group. Perinatal endocrinology: common endocrine disorders in the sick and premature newborn - PubMed
I think Letby is calculating and used the cover of sick and premature infants to engineer their collapses and deaths for longer than otherwise, just as shipman used the cover of elderly women to engineer their deaths. JMO
If Dr. Shoo Lee doesn’t want his study to be used for nefarious reasons, doesn’t want his name to be linked with the conviction he obviously doubts, how is it “me, me, me?” And, he brought a huge panel of doctors, each of whom can speak for themselves. One is a well-known one from Harvard. It is what’s called “teamwork.”
If we start accusing Dr. Lee of being “me, me, me”, of Dr. Ravi Jay’s name pops up again. He uses “me” all the time on TV, but that’s not the problem…
Recently, Dr. Jay compared his current situation to past experience of being in a personally abusive relationship. On TV, no less. Dude, I wanted to say, you are not the victim here, don’t even compare yourself to these parents!
Worse, IMHO. After the trial Drs Jay and Breary were posturing as the whistleblowers persecuted by NHS. Think of it. I support NHS; I think it is a good system. But, NHS is struggling financially, and does need help. Drs. R@J, employed by it, IMHO, don’t seem to care about its sustainability nor the future of free healthcare in the UK. It is all so self-serving. (Here. I said it). I understand the feelings of the Brits. I, too, would stand for imperfect, but fair system. But, remember what brought the eminent Canadian neonatologist there. He came to get his answers in a true crime case.
Now about nosocomial infections. We know about them. Staph aureus, the famous pest of delivery and maternity wards. (Pseudomonas aeruginosa is an overkill, though. Nasty stuff.)
However, the question is not about nosocomial infections. The question is that if it was shown to colonize a very preemie baby’s ETT, it was likely in her tracheobronchial tree. That called for antibiotics in a frail baby with low immunity, but it was missed. (Like, Staph aureus is often in a maternity ward, but if you see it around the navel of the neonate, you give antibiotics).
Same with Streptomonas maltophilia. The problem is not that it is film-forming. The problem is that mortality rate from it is close to 38% and antibiotics should have been immediately prescribed. Yet no one caught it but they blamed Lucy for the baby’s death.
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OK last post before I take time off from this case.
I think the judicial system can’t just say, “we stand by our conviction” now. Too many questions of its strength. It will go on. The case has the potential to be absolutely explosive.
And - someone on an individual level might make money on it, but the NHS will take the fall, and while imperfect, it is free, progressive and does a lot of good.
There are precedents in how to handle the situation. Look at the decision of the Italian court in Kertcher’s death case. Very interesting situation. On an individual level, opinion may always remain split. But, judicially, the accused were let out. They were punished for lying and wrongfully accusing an innocent person, though. As to the rest, it was “impossible to prove” situation. And case was closed.
(Which is a much better way than risk to unjustly convict two young people.)
Same with Lucy. I can’t explain her behavior. I know younger kids who agree with all accusations of random adults because of their own issues, so maybe that’s what her notes were about. But, even the strongest case, with the C-peptide, seems to be falling apart, so before more inquiries and more dirt on anyone and everyone is dug out, it’s wiser to close it now and consider that Lucy has served time behind bars for lying and falsifying notes. We have such a precedent, after all.
About Dr. Shoo K. Lee and his group of 14 experts. It is called “a consilium”, a written medical opinion, very common in medicine. All of these doctors are well-known. It is a typical medical approach (medical, not judicial). Dr. Lee didn’t come to prevail with his authority. He came to understand. There were other people in his group who have higher level than him. Individually they are all different. (I liked the Swedish doctor).
I absolutely understand that with his citation index, Dr. Lee didn’t need Dewi Evans profiting from his work. He probably was upset. But since he also has a Ph.D. in medical economics from Harvard, he can, ironically, be a good source of advice in other areas.
JMO. MOO. I hope they’ll let her out even if the opinion is not unanimous.
I think the judicial system can’t just say, “we stand by our conviction” now. Too many questions of its strength. It will go on. The case has the potential to be absolutely explosive.
And - someone on an individual level might make money on it, but the NHS will take the fall, and while imperfect, it is free, progressive and does a lot of good.
There are precedents in how to handle the situation. Look at the decision of the Italian court in Kertcher’s death case. Very interesting situation. On an individual level, opinion may always remain split. But, judicially, the accused were let out. They were punished for lying and wrongfully accusing an innocent person, though. As to the rest, it was “impossible to prove” situation. And case was closed.
(Which is a much better way than risk to unjustly convict two young people.)
Same with Lucy. I can’t explain her behavior. I know younger kids who agree with all accusations of random adults because of their own issues, so maybe that’s what her notes were about. But, even the strongest case, with the C-peptide, seems to be falling apart, so before more inquiries and more dirt on anyone and everyone is dug out, it’s wiser to close it now and consider that Lucy has served time behind bars for lying and falsifying notes. We have such a precedent, after all.
About Dr. Shoo K. Lee and his group of 14 experts. It is called “a consilium”, a written medical opinion, very common in medicine. All of these doctors are well-known. It is a typical medical approach (medical, not judicial). Dr. Lee didn’t come to prevail with his authority. He came to understand. There were other people in his group who have higher level than him. Individually they are all different. (I liked the Swedish doctor).
I absolutely understand that with his citation index, Dr. Lee didn’t need Dewi Evans profiting from his work. He probably was upset. But since he also has a Ph.D. in medical economics from Harvard, he can, ironically, be a good source of advice in other areas.
JMO. MOO. I hope they’ll let her out even if the opinion is not unanimous.
1. Well, the doctors were persecuted by the senior staff. Haven't you read about when the managers tried to force them to apologise to Letby at a meeting? The threats to report them to the General Medical Council...?
2. What has Streptomonas got to do with anything?
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They didn't need cameras. They painstakingly, with complete focus, followed every staff members details daily logs, and every computer printout of every single data input, and did intensive depositions with every staff member and ever visitor, and they put together a very intricate and detailed minute by minute timeline for each nursery.
And guess what---all of the other staff and visitors notes and testimony show different things than what LL tried to sell in her observation notes.
They KNOW who was in which nursery and when they were there.
Yes, that was a problem. But they did know who was able to administer insulin to both of those babies at that time. And LL was the only one who was there for both incidents.
In fact, she was the ONLY ONE that was present for every single malicious incident.
There were many other technology clues. Many things done by technological machines can be traced back. They know which nurse did what at what time in each nursery.
The guilty verdicts were not based upon Dr J's testimony.
Those babies did not die from 'substandard care.' Many were grievously injured. Many were actually assaulted.
That happened [if it happened] during the resuscitation efforts. But why was the resuscitation needed? Certainly that was not on Dr B?
antiphospholipid sybdrome?
That syndrome is seen in about 1% of those kinds of deaths. So how many of these 27 incidents were caused by this rare disorder?
Her 'poor dexterity' caused 7 newborns to suddenly collapse and die?
YES a very huge step. The biggest step imaginable.
The criminal investigation began in May of 2017. The trial began five and a half years later. An exhaustive investigation proceeded over that 5 plus years.
18 May 2017: Cheshire Police announce they have launched an investigation following “a greater number of baby deaths and collapses” at the hospital between June 2015 and June 2016. The probe will focus on eight deaths and will also review seven further deaths and six non-fatal collapses.
4 October 2022: Letby goes on trial at Manchester Crown Court accused of the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others.
21 August 2023: Letby given 14 whole-life terms after being found guilty by a jury of murdering seven babies and the attempted murder of six others. She was found not guilty of two counts of attempted murder. Verdicts not reached on six counts of attempted murder.
24 May 2024: Letby loses her bid to appeal her murder and attempted murder convictions.
It was based upon data as well. And facts. And circumstantial evidence. And obviously feelings as well. Who isn't going to feel some kind of a way about innocent babies collapsing all around them?
She was called a 'killer nurse' because she is a killer nurse.
I followed ever single day of that long trial. I remember the statements, the witness testimony, the documents, the texts and private messages between Lucy and others, the journals she kept, the medical reports, her confession notes, the medical paperwork she illegally brought home and stashed under her bed, her lies and her falsified medical logs----I remember all of it.
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The 27 collapses were not because of substandard care.
There are not other more plausible explanations though. Not when you look at it in the big picture.
Sure, you can take each individual unexplAined incident, and give an explanation based upon a rare syndrome or a very unusual circumstance, but if you look at it as a whole, that doesn't make sense. How do you explain 27 unexpected, sudden collapses in such a short span of time? That many outliers back to back to back? And EVERY SINGLE ONE while the same nurse is present? And it NEVER happens when she is on vacation?
OMG---I hope she is never released. She is a dangerously violent and cold hearted person.IMO
Lucy's LIES were created WHILE the assaults were happening. She was lying to people and falsifying her medical logs during the time of the assaults. So this was not an example of a defendant lying during the trial out of fear.
She was being cunning and deceitful in order to protect herself in the future when people looked at her medical logs to investigate the malicious events.
I'm sure they are hoping to help. But they aren't really helping, imo.
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Understaffing and cleanliness was not to blame for these deaths.
Of course most of the nurses didn't suspect Letby. She is very cunning and manipulative.
We heard all of her texts and messages with her co-workers. Lucy was called 'nice Lucy' by the staff becAuse she was helpful and kind and reached out to her coworkers about daily events.
But if you see all of the messAges, she was actually 2-faced---said one thing to one person then said the opposite to others.
She'd message one nurse saying 'sorry you aren't feeling well, get some rest and feel better soon'
Then message the others saying' 'that lazy wench is faking just so she didn't have to do her own chores, etc'
Lucy was gaslighting others and also a pot stirrer. She kissed up to many of her superiors and they had her back for years, not believing she could be so evil.
But if you watched the trial, and heard ALL of the evidence, then you can see how she pulled it off.
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Understaffing had nothing to do with these deaths. We watched the trial. We saw the medical logs. There were multiple nurses and doctors ever-present. The babies were closely monitored and received appropriate treatments. These incidents were not caused by neglect but by malicious actions.
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Are those doctors trying to say that the baby died of an infection? Which baby was it?
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She said herself that she did that on occasion.
Even if she didn't it still isn't accusation. It's simply a statement of fact. She could have gone in on her day of not did go in.
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One of my pet peeves here. The NHS is NOT free! People (especially politicians) need to stop saying that!
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