UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

[Charlot123]

some of those articles have some information that is potentially important but i think its laready been covered. For instance dr j and the breathing tube, the babies blood gas is always monitored so the gas leakage dr lee refers to would have been dealt with at the time, any drop in oxygen saturation would have sent the alarms off but it didn't did it? thats throughout the stay and the one time dr j did see the baby struggling was when alone with herself and the alarm not ringing like it had been prevented from doing so or silenced. its not like these docs were not trying to care for them.

this article is interesting as well. if he really does think LL hasnt done wrong then why is he concerned about a wrongful conviction? to me that means he can see how bad she looks.

The chief executive of the Countess of Chester Hospital was worried about a "wrongful conviction" after Lucy Letby was arrested, a public inquiry has heard.

Hospital chief was 'concerned about wrongful conviction' after Lucy Letby's arrest, inquiry told

A senior official at the Countess of Chester hospital said she had a "quite bizarre" conversation with the chief executive about the possibility of Letby's wrongful conviction.

news.sky.com

Do we have a proof that blood gas is always monitored? Is this what either of the doctors ever stated? If so, did they say how often?

Baby K is essentially how this case started. Baby K case is full of strange situations, starting with reversed card readings. So, police mistake, right? At least. Baby K’s case is the Achilles heel of this trial IMHO because not everyone remembers Lucy even being on the unit.

I read about the tube sizes. First, the anatomy of such preemies is so complicated that doctors write articles sharing lifehacks about intubating them. But everyone mentions 2.5 mm; some use 3 mm. Many units don’t routinely stack 2 mm and it is not the recommended size for a baby born at 29.5 weeks. So I don’t know why it was chosen. It is not easier as these tubes are tiny and hyperflexible.

 

[Marantz4250b]

she was only charged with 7 murders when there were 17 deaths so the prosecution must exxept she was not responsible for 10 of them

That's not how it works. There are various reasons why someone who was in fact guilty may not be charged.

 

[Marantz4250b]

yes they have spocken to her but they havent charged her with any more speaking to someone means nothing

It means a very great deal! It means they have sufficient suspicion to speak to her!

 

[Jazmania]

You've got to that wrong. There was 6 at Chester and Letby was on shift for 5.

The telegraph article gives the figure of 18 deaths. That includes 13 at COCH (the Thirwall inquiry has established Letby was present at I believe 11 of these). And then 5 deaths at other hospitals. These 5 babies deteriorated at COCH and were then transferred out to other hospitals. I do think that is interesting. I hope the police are investigating these other 5 deaths too. We don't know how many of these Letby was present for. In my opinion, the death rate was so high at COCH because there was a nurse there who was routinely attacking patients. This was demonstrated unequivocally in her two trials.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Do we have a proof that blood gas is always monitored? Is this what either of the doctors ever stated? If so, did they say how often?

Baby K is essentially how this case started. Baby K case is full of strange situations, starting with reversed card readings. So, police mistake, right? At least. Baby K’s case is the Achilles heel of this trial IMHO because not everyone remembers Lucy even being on the unit.

I read about the tube sizes. First, the anatomy of such preemies is so complicated that doctors write articles sharing lifehacks about intubating them. But everyone mentions 2.5 mm; some use 3 mm. Many units don’t routinely stack 2 mm and it is not the recommended size for a baby born at 29.5 weeks. So I don’t know why it was chosen. It is not easier as these tubes are tiny and hyperflexible.

come on. second place to a heart monitor the oxygen stats are the most important but thats me guessing.

"Letby's defence said the cause of the tube moving was probably down to the child doing it herself, adding that her case was another example of "sub-optimal care" by the hospital. "She [Letby] didn't have her hands in the incubator," Dr Jayaram told the court. "I saw her and then I looked up at the monitor and [Child K's] sats [blood oxygen levels] were in the 80s and they continued to drop.

"The ventilator was not ALARMING and the incubator was not ALARMING and the monitor is SET to ALARM when the sats drop below 90%. I recall saying 'what's happening?' and Lucy looked and said something along the lines of 'she is having a desaturation'.""

Baby K's heartbreaking final days as Lucy Letby found guilty of attempted murder

Lucy Letby was found guilty of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder six others during her campaign of terror at Countess of Chester Hospital. Now she has been found guilty of another attempted murder

www.mirror.co.uk

she was definitely there.

 

[mrC]

the telgraphs says 10 baby deaths ill go with what the telegraph says The 10 baby deaths that cast doubt on Lucy Letby’s guilt

 

[Charlot123]

Doctors fallacy?

Superstitious aberration?

What on earth?

JMO: It could be a mere observation bias which is a logical fallacy that gave sprouts of a superstition when someone dubbed Lucy “Nurse Death”. Then, I think, it progressed to the situation when the doctors came to believe in it so much that each time a baby would die, they’d question whether Lucy was on call. Then they became so sure it was Lucy that instead of doing a normal root-cause analysis, they’d search for the way she could potentially kill the preemies. This is where rational, reasonable thinking has left at least one of them, I suppose.

IRL, here is the situation described in the Telegraph, linked several posts earlier when the independent panel believes that the child died. “Another baby died after getting a blood clot when doctors left empty infusion lines in the body for several hours. When the infusion was finally switched on, the clot dislodged and travelled to the brainstem, triggering a sudden collapse”. I believe, it started before Lucy was even on shift as the PICC line was inserted around 5pm. The infusion was started much later because they were waiting for the X-ray to check the PICC placement. By that time, Lucy comes on the unit, the infusion is started and the clot is dislodged. So Lucy is present at collapse and death, but the chain of events is started much earlier. (That case is a typical Swiss cheese starting at delivery, in fact, so one cannot blame that doctor).

Cracks in Lucy Letby case are now gaping holes

Evidence that helped secure murder convictions against nurse challenged by respected experts

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

For sure he is not getting paid. His article written almost forty years ago, when he probably was a resident or a young doctor and described livido reticularis as one of the observations in air embolism, has been pulled out and now basing on it, the term “Lee sign” has been coined and a young nurse is accused of killing preemies on a subpar NICU because three times, doctors observed it on the bodies of the demised babies. Medicine advances; these days some doctors offer a broader explanation of livido reticularis, and Dr. Lee, to give him credit, with all his degrees and stellar status, reviews his article, adds new information and moreover, rushes to UK to do everything humanely possible to help Lucy.

I can bet that he is not paid and would refuse the money. In my eyes, he is a man of decency and integrity.

It is not his fault that some doctors in UK misunderstood his article. It is not his fault that the NICU light, quite possibly, played a trick on them. Least of all is it his fault that the consultants are not a common presence on the unit and interns and nurses are stretched too thin.

You have no idea either way and neither do any of us!

He may well be doing it fo free but as regards anything in life, very few people do anything for free. Even just from a practical standpoint, it's not possible for most people to do extensive work for free. Getting fourteen medical "experts" in the same room, to agree a consensus on a single report....and for free....seems to be stretching credibility somewhat.

They won't be doing it at their own expense, that will be for sure.

The real test will come if this actually gets in front of a court as an appeal or retrial (which I think we all know it won't) and whether these esteemed international experts are going to give up weeks and potentially months of their lives to give evidence, witness statements and suchlike. Call my cynical but I think their charity is likely to run thin in short order if that ever comes to fruition.

Putting your name to a report is one thing - flying all over the planet to be ripped apart before a spirited prosecution barrister is quite another!

 

[Charlot123]

come on. second place to a heart monitor the oxygen stats are the most important but thats me guessing.

"Letby's defence said the cause of the tube moving was probably down to the child doing it herself, adding that her case was another example of "sub-optimal care" by the hospital. "She [Letby] didn't have her hands in the incubator," Dr Jayaram told the court. "I saw her and then I looked up at the monitor and [Child K's] sats [blood oxygen levels] were in the 80s and they continued to drop.

"The ventilator was not ALARMING and the incubator was not ALARMING and the monitor is SET to ALARM when the sats drop below 90%. I recall saying 'what's happening?' and Lucy looked and said something along the lines of 'she is having a desaturation'.""

Baby K's heartbreaking final days as Lucy Letby found guilty of attempted murder

Lucy Letby was found guilty of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder six others during her campaign of terror at Countess of Chester Hospital. Now she has been found guilty of another attempted murder

www.mirror.co.uk

she was definitely there.

Just give me some time to pull out printed version of Baby A story.

 

[Sweeper2000]

probably not relevant to what i was saying about baby k, the alarm not sounding and dr lee failure to address the fact that the alarm seemed to have been silenced but we will go with it anyway. beam me up scotty

 

[joltz]

the telgraphs says 10 baby deaths ill go with what the telegraph says The 10 baby deaths that cast doubt on Lucy Letby’s gui

the telgraphs says 10 baby deaths ill go with what the telegraph says The 10 baby deaths that cast doubt on Lucy Letby’s guilt

You go with that then. but it's not correct.
Its been pointed out by multiple posters how many deaths there actually were at COC during this period.

You would do well to not rely on articles written by Sarah Knapton.


JMO

 

[Charlot123]

You have no idea either way and neither do any of us!

He may well be doing it fo free but as regards anything in life, very few people do anything for free. Even just from a practical standpoint, it's not possible for most people to do extensive work for free. Getting fourteen medical "experts" in the same room, to agree a consensus on a single report....and for free....seems to be stretching credibility somewhat.

They won't be doing it at their own expense, that will be for sure.

The real test will come if this actually gets in front of a court as an appeal or retrial (which I think we all know it won't) and whether these esteemed international experts are going to give up weeks and potentially months of their lives to give evidence, witness statements and suchlike. Call my cynical but I think their charity is likely to run thin in short order if that ever comes to fruition.

Putting your name to a report is one thing - flying all over the planet to be ripped apart before a spirited prosecution barrister is quite another!

MOO - the case is not about anyone’s life/reimbursement in general because as you have aptly mentioned, we don’t know it and it is irrelevant to this case. (Dr. Lee is ann Officer of the Order of Canada. Perhaps one country’s highest recognition is the best thing one can achieve.) We can only discuss the situation with LL.

Don’t know where the case will move but hopefully, in the right direction.

On a side note, successful performance in a tandem with a “professional trial witness” doesn’t automatically guarantee that a prosecution barrister would easily rip apart a truly knowledgeable doctor. However, if British barristers are so “spirited”, perhaps Zoom depositions would be the best precaution.

 

[CatsnChickens]

Has anybody else bothered to read the Lee Paper? The original one?

It was 53 cases dating from other papers from 1944 - 1984 which is 40 years which makes it 1.4 cases per year worldwide.

My word the Countess of Chester was unlucky to have so many cases in a short space of time with it being such a rare phenomenon.

Pulmonary vascular air embolism in the newborn - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[joltz]

Has anybody else bothered to read the Lee Paper? The original one?

It was 53 cases dating from other papers from 1944 - 1984 which is 40 years which makes it 1.4 cases per year worldwide.

My word the Countess of Chester was unlucky to have so many cases in a short space of time with it being such a rare phenomenon.

Pulmonary vascular air embolism in the newborn - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I think that's probably due to the fact that there was a nurse doing on purpose to babies at the Countess of Chester.

 

[CatsnChickens]

Totally agree joltz

 

[joltz]

Right has anyone got links for the official deaths statistics.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Right has anyone got links for the official deaths statistics.

depends on what you mean by it. there is a foi request which pertains to them but says nothing about them or the way such things are classified.

Has anybody else bothered to read the Lee Paper? The original one?

It was 53 cases dating from other papers from 1944 - 1984 which is 40 years which makes it 1.4 cases per year worldwide.

My word the Countess of Chester was unlucky to have so many cases in a short space of time with it being such a rare phenomenon.

Pulmonary vascular air embolism in the newborn - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

is it just me or didnt they go over it at trial ? something about the difference between cpap and other forms of ventilation with cpap being less invasive? or that might be to do with some of the professional advice given on here and gratefuly received.

 

[mrC]

but it is disputed weather they were killed by an air embolism

 

[mrC]

i have read but then its out of date Pulmonary vascular air embolism in the newborn - PMC

 

[CatsnChickens]

is it just me or didnt they go over it at trial ? something about the difference between cpap and other forms of ventilation with cpap being less invasive? or that might be to do with some of the professional advice given on here and gratefuly received.

Hi Sweeper. I use a CPAP it is a soft mask that goes over your nostrils and mouth or sometimes just your nostrils depending on the type of mask. When you sleep the machine gives you a constant flow of air to stop your airways collapsing when you are asleep. There is no respiration tube so less damaging to the airways and the force of the air can be easilly regulated by the machine. For example my pressure when I switch it on is at a fairly low setting but once the machine senses I am asleep it has an autoramp to increase the air pressure based on my breathing.