UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[katydid23]

new from the telgraph Lucy Letby latest: Hospital managers appeal for end to inquiry

Of course they do. The hospital managers would LOVE the Inquiry to end because it has revealed how inept and incompetent they were.

 

[katydid23]

257 handover sheets suggests she tips the contents of her pockets into her “work bag” after every shift. A bag which ended up chucked under her bed, like many people who hoard rubbish tend to do, out of sight out of mind. It shouldn’t have happened. But it’s not like there was a pile of preserved handover notes relating specifically to the babies in the case. If she had this volume of handover notes and none of them related to these babies, it would look more suspicious.

Re Facebook, she searched everyone, thousands of searches, including many other patient families. Again, it would be more strange if the particular families in this case were suspiciously absent from her constant Facebook searching.

There is doubt about whether medical notes were falsified. The key one being Baby E, in which the consultant’s and midwife’s version of events also points to the parents being out by one hour.

I take issue with that^^^^... There is no doubt, in my mind, that Letby falsified her notes concerning Baby E. I followed the trial closely and it was proven that her notes were falsified to cover up her deceitful actions.

She FALSELY claimed that the 9 pm scheduled feeding was cancelled by the attending consultant.

THAT was shown to be false. He testified that he never cancelled that 9 pm Feed.

And the parents of Baby E had PHONE RECORDS corroborating that the Mom called her husband, crying in anguish, at 9:25 pm, after seeing their baby bleeding and crying in pain.

These is no doubt that the sworn testimony of those 2 parents and the testimony of the midwife and the consultant corroborated that 9 pm visit to the nursery.

The mother went to express her milk at 8:30 pm, and was scheduled for a 9 pm feed. The ONLY person who denied that was Nurse Letby, who had written in her medical log that it was cancelled. The problem for Libya was that the only doctor on the premises at that time had no record of cancelling that Feed, and no record of even observing that baby nor any record of discussing that baby with anyone, until Nurse Lertby called him at 9:40 pm to say he hd 'flecks of blood' in his diaper.

And yet Letby had already told Mom at 9 pm that the doctor had been called and was on his way because the baby was bleeding from his mouth. <<<that was a LIE

The mother called her husband when she returned to her room and told him about their baby screaming in pain and bleeding. Both parents testified to that and had PHONE RECORDS to corroborate that call happened at 9:25 pm.

There certainly is doubt about Jayaram catching her “virtually red handed”, when he failed to record it (despite already being suspicious of Letby) and failed to mention it to another soul until more than a year later after Letby’s grievance was upheld.

I’m not missing the point. The whole thing adds up to “there were murders, she was always there, therefore she’s the murderer”.

 

[katydid23]

Here is my concern, if she had handover sheets of many kids she was searching for, it still doesn’t explain why.

There has been some speculation for why she would break the law and take these medical records out of the hospital, and illegally keep them under her bed.

Many people, including myself, believe she used these handover sheets to keep track of potential victims.

There are 27 incidents of unexplained, sudden collapses of babies. If someone did this maliciously, how did they choose their victims? I think they'd need some medical data in order to figure out the best way to mount their attacks. These assaults were done by an assortment of methods. Like they were tailored for each child. I think LL used these documents to track certain potential targets.

“Why” might be different. Supposedly Lucy, being not socially quite aware, wanted to write a bestseller about a nurse’s life? A romance, perhaps? Then it could have been the reason to keep the books and the information about the patients and their parents.

If so, why not testify to that in court? She was asked many times and had no real answer. Said it was often accidental that she'd bring one home but she never bothered to return them or destroy them.

It could have been simple OCD/hoarding, but I am not sure. It likely belongs into the imaginary world.

OR it could be that she collects them for nefarious reasons. IMO

 

[katydid23]

Ok cool, I’ll dip out then. If the attitude is that I’m being contrarian because I didn’t get the result “I wanted” then I have no idea what to say. We’re talking about the deaths of newborn babies here. I’m not a “supporter” of Letby, I’m someone who’s not willing to simply disregard the opinions of people I hold to the same standard as those who gave evidence during the trial. I’m never going to agree it’s fine for vulnerable infants to be lying around sewage just because the rest of the NHS has crumbled beyond recognition, it’s all fine until it’s not. In this case we seem able to disregard the spike in stillbirths, and disregard the spike in newborn non-murder deaths, because there’s nothing to see here! It’s all more likely that someone woke up one morning suddenly a psychopath.

I don't think Letby 'suddenly' woke up as a psychopath. I think it was a long slow process beginning as a child, with the influence of a hypochondriac as a parent. That is often how 'Munchausen BY PROXY' begins.

 

[katydid23]

‘I am evil I did this’: Lucy Letby’s so-called confessions were written on advice of counsellors

Prosecutors used densely written Post-its to build case against nurse, but she was told to write down her feelings to cope with extreme stress, sources say

www.theguardian.com

Nope, that was a false claim by DeRoper. She was just trying to give Lucy and herself some cover.

Why would an employee of the hospital, the Occupational Health Manager, advise her employee to CONFESS in writing to these horrid crimes?


During the trial, Lucy said the opposite. She said she had no counselling or therapy.

Those notes were written July 2016, , before she'd been investigated, two months before she heard what the accusations were.

 

[katydid23]

Reading through the comments, there are strong opinions. I do not have any strong opinions, I am not a so called 'Letbyist' but I am questioning the doubts that have been reported after the trial. How can anyone be certain given the doubts and the unwarrented jail sentences given to innocent people. There doesn't seem to have been any evidence that has been directly linked to LL, that is the reason I have doubts. There are people who seem certain that LL has been unjustly convicted. Has she?

There is plenty of evidence that directly links Letby to the deaths. She was not unjustly convicted. IMO

 

[katydid23]

Did anyone diagnose the baby with air embolism as the reason for death after it happened?

Or did it happen post factum? With their professional “trial expert” deprived of medical license for fifteen years?

Any ICU specialist will tell you that no IV fluids for a few hours may be a death defying issue.
.

You are narrowing down on one tiny detail----the trial involved 27 incidents, of unexplained sudden collapses of newborns. And the attempts to revive the newborns had some confusing things in common-----the babies needed several shots of adrenaline to get them to revive. That was highly unusual. Most of the babies were considered healthy and were expected to be released very soon.

And yet the symptoms and potential causes of the collapses were varied.

What was the ONE factor they all had in common? >>>> Nurse Letby

The reason other nurses began to be suspicious was because in the initial collapses, the designated nurses would go on dinner breaks and Nurse Letby would take over----when designated nurse would return, their patient would be unresponsive and in resuscitation.

That happened a few times and it caught people's attention. And Letby continued to be the causal factor. When she went on her 2 week vacations, there were never any collapses. But the day she left and the very day she returned, there would be collapses or unexplained deaths, each time.

ALL of the collapses happened during the night shifts. So they moved Letby to day shift, and the ALL of the collapses happened during the day.

When they finally took her off the floor, the unexplained collapses stopped happening.

 

[Charlot123]

You’re not allowed to take confidential patient information home, and doing so is illegal as well as unethical. That she did this is actually an offence in and of itself - she’d have known this IMO and chose to break both the law and patient confidentiality - not a good look for me personally

or potentially instead of A plus B plus C plus D to make sense of it all, there was a convicted murderer?

I think it’s evident there is a lack of understanding about consultant job plans. Given that no human beings can work 24/7, rotas are established so that a number of places can be covered - delivery suite emergencies eg resus/brain cooling, the on-call for NICU - where they must be within 15-30 mins - but often a 72 hour on call, which, without cocaine they could not be permanently resident for, outpatient and follow up clinic, as well as governance meetings such as mortality and morbidity meetings, regional network meetings, audit, bed management etc so in order to cross cover all of these areas they evidently could not provide daily consultant ward rounds, though they always had 24/7 consultant advice. That’s not about pushing responsibility it’s just about how to get a limited number of people to cover all bases whilst needing to sleep and rest.

It also shouldn’t surprise you that this is just how hospitals work. Out of hours hospitals are nearly always run by registrars and nurses, that’s what provides the expertise and training to become a consultant.

I don’t think it’s particularly feasible at least to me that you can explain the spike in deaths to 2015-2016, following Letbys holidays, night shifts or day shifts etc just because consultants decided to be particularly ineffective or lazy or whatever that year. They spent the whole time trying to work out any other reasons for the spikes.

I cannot recall any of the cases having positive microbiology results for pseudomonas or E. coli. Have you followed the trial/the actual pathology reports? Deaths with sepsis from such infections would not be sudden and they would not be “unexplained”.

I think personally some of this is just reaching for extravagant reasons why this could not be letby when reality is usually much simpler.

All JMOO

it was surprising that a non-teaching UK hospital heavily relies on registrars (it is ICU, after all).

But what I think doesn’t matter. Dr. Lee said that in Canada, such a unit would be shut down.

Again, not to put the hospital down. Just asking if they needed Lucy or it was a poorly run hospital. Not even blaming the doctors - I am sure they were paid for the amount of hours they spent on the unit and that full-time consultants coverage was factored in.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Does pediatric hematologist comment on no senior neonatologist seeing a 29-week old newborn since he was born? What does he say about inability to establish IV access and the neonate having no fluids for a few hours? You don’t have to have APLS to form a clot at the tip of the catheter if there is no fluid going through it, btw.

I believe you are referring to Baby A here.


First of all, I have not read that Baby A was 29 weeks. Do you have a source for this? The nearest I could find was the Guardian article describing the twins as 6 weeks early, which usually means 34 weeks. There is a big difference between 29 and 34 weeks. I'm working from the assumption that the twins A and B were 34 weeks. That gestational age could stand 4 hours of interrption in IV fluids. But even at 29 weeks, while that is quite a long time off fluids, I would not expect dehydration to the point of circulatory collapse. Even if he was dehydrated, the treatment is starting IV fluids. If dehydration caused the collapse, giving fluids would have helped.


Regarding the blood clot hypothesis-


From the trial, the peripheral cannula tissued at just after 4pm. Two attempts were made to place a UVC and in both cases the UVC was removed because they could not obtain ideal placement. Then the long line was placed and fluids commenced at just after 8 pm.


Getting the UVL to go where you want is equal measures luck and skill. After two attempts they gave up and sited a long line. This is reasonable.


In the meantime, nasogastric milk feeds were commenced, which was appropriate. They were small volumes paving the way for larger volumes. Keep in mind that the volume of IV fluids per hour would also have been small.


This timeline suggests that no line was in place for much more than an hour. That's not very long. The lines would all have been saline locked and flushed intermittently while placing them and while waiting for xray.


The fact that they were able to start fluids suggests the long line was not clotted, because clotted long lines are usually occluded.


I don't think the clinical details relayed in testimony line up with Dr. Lee's central line related thrombus hypothesis.



Something can be not ideal or not a best practice while also not being a plausible cause of death.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 more at the Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Timeline of Lucy Letby’s attacks on babies and when alarm was raised

How events unfolded in neonatal unit where killer nurse worked at Countess of Chester hospital

www.theguardian.com

 

[joltz]

I haven’t seen her to weigh in on her trustworthiness. What a neurodivergent person says may be misunderstood. All I know is that she said she was innocent. For now, I honestly phase out “Lucy” factor because I don’t think it adds any weight.

I am looking from a different standpoint.

Level 2 unit in UK
provides short-term intensive care for babies needing non-invasive respiratory support, often those born between 27 and 32 weeks gestation.

Meaning they can be severely premature.

Now if you tell me that consultant level neonatologists are there only twice a week, this is enough for catastrophes to happen.

Why the increase in 2015-2016? God knows. Triaging might have changed (remember the COCH was determined poor-level of care for the mother of babies A @ B and it is only by poor luck she ended there. So it was a poor hospital to start with; maybe more sick kids ended up there due to change in triage?). So, more babies of 27 weeks as opposed to 32, here is your rise in deaths.

Or, as they mention, nosocomial infections. Pseudomonas aeruginosa, anyone? Or E. Coli due to sewage overflow?

If what Dr. Lee’s committee said about Dr. Jay - essentially, that he had no clue about ventilation in neonates - is true, and if during that time, statistically, they had more preemies needing ventilation - here is your reason for increased unit mortality.

These doctors should have been there night and day for such neonates, and they pushed the job on registrars and nurses.

Ah, so you are considering any possibility that means it's wasn't Letby, ok. Basically everything you have said has been covered and was not the cause of a single collapse at COC. The one about Dr J is also absolutely laughable but hey, some people prefer to cling to anything that means "Lucy" didn't do it.

The Drs should have been there night and day? Do you have any understanding of how NHS hospitals work?
Some people really don't want to face the facts.
JMO

 

[Moll]

it was surprising that a non-teaching UK hospital heavily relies on registrars (it is ICU, after all).

But what I think doesn’t matter. Dr. Lee said that in Canada, such a unit would be shut down.

Again, not to put the hospital down. Just asking if they needed Lucy or it was a poorly run hospital. Not even blaming the doctors - I am sure they were paid for the amount of hours they spent on the unit and that full-time consultants coverage was factored in.

Just on your frequent concern about interns and registrars - I wonder if you are thinking registrars are lower-level than they are, as I understand you are not in the UK?

I'm not a medic but recently spent five months continually visiting a close adult relative in a major London hospital, five weeks of which were on ICU. I was always glad to see registrars - they were experienced people who might well be consultants next year and they were not second-best in practice even if lower in the hospital hierarchy. That said, there was a daily ward round of the team with the consultant, as a minimum when all was going well.

 

[JosieJo]

it was surprising that a non-teaching UK hospital heavily relies on registrars (it is ICU, after all).

But what I think doesn’t matter. Dr. Lee said that in Canada, such a unit would be shut down.

Again, not to put the hospital down. Just asking if they needed Lucy or it was a poorly run hospital. Not even blaming the doctors - I am sure they were paid for the amount of hours they spent on the unit and that full-time consultants coverage was factored in.

It's nor just the COCH....many hospitals are exactly yhe same ...it really wasn't that bad or a unique situation...it's just shocking to people when they hear the enquiry in detail... that this is pretty "normal" in the NHS sadly

Other hospitals didn't have a spike in unexpected deaths and collapses

 

[joltz]

it was surprising that a non-teaching UK hospital heavily relies on registrars (it is ICU, after all).

But what I think doesn’t matter. Dr. Lee said that in Canada, such a unit would be shut down.

Again, not to put the hospital down. Just asking if they needed Lucy or it was a poorly run hospital. Not even blaming the doctors - I am sure they were paid for the amount of hours they spent on the unit and that full-time consultants coverage was factored in.

So you have made a claim that "2 ward rounds per week" is somehow partly to blame for deaths. It has now been clearly explained to you in detail how units in the NHS operate and how this is basically normal. Your reply is to then disregard all this information and move onto the claim made by Dr Lee that the hospital would be shut down. Is his word the be all and end all?

The fact is that lots of babies died because a nurse murdered them. Or do you think Dr Lee thinks that the unit should have been shut down because of "2 ward rounds per week"

Its all just a load of rubbish really. A bit like that Dr Taylor in the first press conference making the outlandish claim that a Dr caused the death of a baby and he wouldn't be able to sleep at night if it was him. Sensationalist rubbish, intended to grab attention and lure people into this narrative that makes no sense whatsoever

JMO

 

[JosieJo]

So you have made a claim that "2 ward rounds per week" is somehow partly to blame for deaths. It has now been clearly explained to you in detail how units in the NHS operate and how this is basically normal. Your reply is to then disregard all this information and move onto the claim made by Dr Lee that the hospital would be shut down. Is his word the be all and end all?

The fact is that lots of babies died because a nurse murdered them. Or do you think Dr Lee thinks that the unit should have been shut down because of "2 ward rounds per week"

Its all just a load of rubbish really. A bit like that Dr Taylor in the first press conference making the outlandish claim that a Dr caused the death of a baby and he wouldn't be able to sleep at night if it was him. Sensationalist rubbish, intended to grab attention and lure people into this narrative that makes no sense whatsoever

JMO

Totally agree...and 2 ward rounds a week does not mean that's the only time the babies were seen by a consultant....how many consultants were doing "2 rounds a week" ? Not just one ...multiple...then you have a consultant "on call" every day and night ....the babies had access to a consultant 24/7

I'm not sure what post but I remember a mention of "laziness" around consultants...I think it has to be remembered the consultants were not just in charge of neonates....they were also in charge of the children's wards and all the paediatric outpatient clinics, neonatal clinics, and any babies on maternity wards ....also all children coming through ED ...management and teaching responsibilities....don't think laziness comes into it

 

[Ruthbullock]

I believe you are referring to Baby A here.


First of all, I have not read that Baby A was 29 weeks. Do you have a source for this? The nearest I could find was the Guardian article describing the twins as 6 weeks early, which usually means 34 weeks. There is a big difference between 29 and 34 weeks. I'm working from the assumption that the twins A and B were 34 weeks. That gestational age could stand 4 hours of interrption in IV fluids. But even at 29 weeks, while that is quite a long time off fluids, I would not expect dehydration to the point of circulatory collapse. Even if he was dehydrated, the treatment is starting IV fluids. If dehydration caused the collapse, giving fluids would have helped.


Regarding the blood clot hypothesis-


From the trial, the peripheral cannula tissued at just after 4pm. Two attempts were made to place a UVC and in both cases the UVC was removed because they could not obtain ideal placement. Then the long line was placed and fluids commenced at just after 8 pm.


Getting the UVL to go where you want is equal measures luck and skill. After two attempts they gave up and sited a long line. This is reasonable.


In the meantime, nasogastric milk feeds were commenced, which was appropriate. They were small volumes paving the way for larger volumes. Keep in mind that the volume of IV fluids per hour would also have been small.


This timeline suggests that no line was in place for much more than an hour. That's not very long. The lines would all have been saline locked and flushed intermittently while placing them and while waiting for xray.


The fact that they were able to start fluids suggests the long line was not clotted, because clotted long lines are usually occluded.


I don't think the clinical details relayed in testimony line up with Dr. Lee's central line related thrombus hypothesis.



Something can be not ideal or not a best practice while also not being a plausible cause of death.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 19

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 more at the Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Timeline of Lucy Letby’s attacks on babies and when alarm was raised

How events unfolded in neonatal unit where killer nurse worked at Countess of Chester hospital

www.theguardian.com

It was neither week- baby A was born at 31 weeks. In looking for that I have fallen across this table which has the correct summary of all babies who died on the unit. https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0108782.pdf

 

[Highlandspring]

The insulin tests were not challenged, that’s the point. Everyone agreed it could only have been exogenous insulin. If there are experts of equal standing coming forward now to say that evidence should have been challenged, then why should it be waved away as “sorry you had your time in court, better luck next time”?

It’s absurd that this is our justice system and people support it. I have no idea if Letby is guilty or not, same as you, but what’s going on with the case currently is farcical whatever side of the fence you sit on.

I AM sure she's guilty, beyond reasonable doubt. For many many reasons. Off the top of my head, here are a few of them. She's a pathological liar and manipulator, obsessed with the NNU patients and not in a good way. Evidenced by thousands of manipulative and gaslighting messages about them. The pattern of collapses followed her work pattern, too many times for coincidence. There was NO alternative explanation for collapses, searched for tirelessly by the real experts who treated them and knew their all too short histories. There was NO evidence of scapegoating. The doctors were the ones who kept trying to investigate and report the collapses, and were silenced by the execs covering up and silencing any alarms. Dozens if doctors treated those babies, did they all manage to hatch a plan to frame one random nurse? Very clever if so, seeing how incapable they're meant to be. There is no valid question mark over the insulin. As explained in full at the Inquiry. An engineer without clinical knowledge is the person now questioning it and he has no credibility. As will be the CCRC opinion. She stood in the dock and lied, evaded and obfuscated for 15 hours. Her straight answers were noteworthy for their rarity. She even accused parents of lying. That time zone argument is total fiction, they were plenty of witnesses. No innocent person needs to dodge and weave and calculate their way through questioning - that they've had 7-8 years to prepare for.

That's just the tip of a massive iceberg. A 5 year investigation and counting, 2 trials, 3 appeals, 5000 pages of evidence at first trial, 246 witnesses. And further imminent charges against her.

And the actual targets weren't the babies, they were primarily their parents.

She's guilty. Many more than 15 times.

Bring on the CCRC and CofA, cannot wait.

 

[JosieJo]

It was neither week- baby A was born at 31 weeks. In looking for that I have fallen across this table which has the correct summary of all babies who died on the unit. https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0108782.pdf

Interesting to see some of the babies listed are still under investigation by police

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

It was neither week- baby A was born at 31 weeks. In looking for that I have fallen across this table which has the correct summary of all babies who died on the unit. https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0108782.pdf

Thank you! I knew someone here would have better information. Well, let me slightly modify my previous statement in light of this correction.

31 weeks is less robust than 34 weeks, but you would not expect rapid and significant dehydration in that time period, not to the point of circulatory collapse, and not to the point of being unresponsive to full resuscitation measures which include treatment for decreased circulating volume.

There would have been risk of hypoglycemia. In the trial, we heard nursing notes describing Baby A as being jittery around 8pm. These were Letby's notes, not Mel Taylor's. If Letby was truthful, and she may have been, jitters suggest hypoglycemia. It also suggests that the baby was awake and moving around at 8pm! This is at odds with the idea that the delay in fluids caused the collapse. Resuscitation measures also include giving doses of dextrose to correct low blood sugar.

If lack of fluids caused collapse, the resuscitation should have treated the cause.

I would expect urgency around obtaining IV access for this baby. This would be to avoid the negative effects of prolonged hypoglycemia on the brain, which can show up in the school years. We also want to provide ready supply of nutrition to keep the baby in a growing state after delivery. This improves future growth, which affects all parts of the body, and leads to more normal brain development.

 

[May72031]

Its all just a load of rubbish really. A bit like that Dr Taylor in the first press conference making the outlandish claim that a Dr caused the death of a baby and he wouldn't be able to sleep at night if it was him. Sensationalist rubbish, intended to grab attention and lure people into this narrative that makes no sense whatsoever

JMO

I'm still miffed about this incredible claim, parroted as gospel by the likes of John Sweeney. Dr. Lee and his supporters should be confronted on it. Whenever you bring this up to Letbyists on various social media, they tend to get angry, dismissive, and sometimes abusive.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Thank you! I knew someone here would have better information. Well, let me slightly modify my previous statement in light of this correction.

31 weeks is less robust than 34 weeks, but you would not expect rapid and significant dehydration in that time period, not to the point of circulatory collapse, and not to the point of being unresponsive to full resuscitation measures which include treatment for decreased circulating volume.

There would have been risk of hypoglycemia. In the trial, we heard nursing notes describing Baby A as being jittery around 8pm. These were Letby's notes, not Mel Taylor's. If Letby was truthful, and she may have been, jitters suggest hypoglycemia. It also suggests that the baby was awake and moving around at 8pm! This is at odds with the idea that the delay in fluids caused the collapse. Resuscitation measures also include giving doses of dextrose to correct low blood sugar.

If lack of fluids caused collapse, the resuscitation should have treated the cause.

I would expect urgency around obtaining IV access for this baby. This would be to avoid the negative effects of prolonged hypoglycemia on the brain, which can show up in the school years. We also want to provide ready supply of nutrition to keep the baby in a growing state after delivery. This improves future growth, which affects all parts of the body, and leads to more normal brain development.

You didn’t need to rewrite your post . I shared it as it’s a useful overview which I have actually found hard to find previously with an accurate overview of times, dates outcomes etc in one place.