UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[Tortoise]

CS

Dr Evans was only one expert. Prof Kinsey gave testimony about baby A, as did Owen Arthur's. Arthur's highlighted the unusual line of gas on the x ray.

Dr Evans, another expert (neonatologist) who died before trial, Dr Bohin, Prof Arthurs, Prof Kinsey, and Dr Marnerides.

The judge refers to expert witness Dr Andreas Marnerides' evidence.
His expertise, the court is told, is on the pathology of conditions on those who had died.
He said there was "no evidence of infection" or "any other abnormalities".
He said he could see, from his study, "empty structures" of fat or air in Child A - after testing, he ruled out the former.
He said he could see evidence of air in the brain when the baby was alive.
The findings "could not be taken as absolute proof of air embolus".
He said there was "no evidence of any natural cause of death", or any of natural disease.
He took the view that Child A's death was of air embolus via injection.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, July 3 - judge's summing up

 

[Charlot123]

They didn't call it that because that wasn't what it was.

Then what is the medical term?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Interesting no input from Dr Lee on Dr marneridez or dr arthurs input is there? or at least from my recall. That was for the trial though right and dr lee has said he knows nothing of the trial itself? does that mean mr mcdonald didn't instruct him on it? to be fair dr lee might not get the whole picture from the med files alone such as what that line of gas means and other findings by dr marneridez. it beggars belief that we have that panel of experts who skipped the trial tbh, due diligence would entail reading up on that surely. if that is the case its shabby workmanship ted. im not getting a good impression of this at all but granted lacking confirmation at this point.

i wonder if either dr marneridez or dr arthurs could state their position on dr lee's thoery on the thrombus but all in all it sounds like its been ruled out already even with dr lee's input on it being difficult to find.

 

[joltz]

Interesting no input from Dr Lee on Dr marneridez or dr arthurs input is there? or at least from my recall. That was for the trial though right and dr lee has said he knows nothing of the trial itself? does that mean mr mcdonald didn't instruct him on it? to be fair dr lee might not get the whole picture from the med files alone such as what that line of gas means and other findings by dr marneridez. it beggars belief that we have that panel of experts who skipped the trial tbh, due diligence would entail reading up on that surely. if that is the case its shabby workmanship ted. im not getting a good impression of this at all but granted lacking confirmation at this point.

i wonder if either dr marneridez or dr arthurs could state their position on dr lee's thoery on the thrombus but all in all it sounds like its been ruled out already even with dr lee's input on it being difficult to find.

I'lle see if I can find the link but I believe Dr Lee stated that he hadn't read any of the court transcripts.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'lle see if I can find the link but I believe Dr Lee stated that he hadn't read any of the court transcripts.

yeh he hadn't im just wondering if mark mcdonald informed him of those medical findings presented at trial, otherwise he is missing the bigger picture. if maccie d didn't hes an idiot. mr myers would have.

since maccie d is looking for tips on social media i may send him a message saying get dr lee to read them and tell him about the supporting med evidence. wonder what he would think probably "oh yeh i missed that".

 

[mrC]

intresting articale about bullying at the hospital Letby hospital forced whistleblower out of her job, tribunal rules

 

[mrC]

experts ases the chances of lucy walking free This is how Lucy Letby can walk free

 

[Furore]

I'lle see if I can find the link but I believe Dr Lee stated that he hadn't read any of the court transcripts.

The link is further up in this thread in an article in The Telegraph.

 

[Furore]

Then what is the medical term?

To my knowledge and best of literature search there is no specific medical term for a dynamic rash that moves around the body as you watch. Hence why no specific name could be raised in court, testimony etc

MOO

 

[Furore]

Interesting no input from Dr Lee on Dr marneridez or dr arthurs input is there? or at least from my recall. That was for the trial though right and dr lee has said he knows nothing of the trial itself? does that mean mr mcdonald didn't instruct him on it? to be fair dr lee might not get the whole picture from the med files alone such as what that line of gas means and other findings by dr marneridez. it beggars belief that we have that panel of experts who skipped the trial tbh, due diligence would entail reading up on that surely. if that is the case its shabby workmanship ted. im not getting a good impression of this at all but granted lacking confirmation at this point.

i wonder if either dr marneridez or dr arthurs could state their position on dr lee's thoery on the thrombus but all in all it sounds like its been ruled out already even with dr lee's input on it being difficult to find.

To be honest I think they’ve stated their position already under oath on condition of child A and B, and like professionals, they’re keeping their testimony to court rather than courting the press.

It is actually confidential medical information, which was collated and collected for specific reasons - a court trial. So although much is in the public domain, I don’t think your average ethical physician involved in the care or medical records of these babies would be comfortable blithely discussing it with the daily mail or on twitter. JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

To my knowledge and best of literature search there is no specific medical term for a dynamic rash that moves around the body as you watch. Hence why no specific name could be raised in court, testimony etc

MOO

i never got the impression from what was dexribed that it was indeed a rash, always seemed to meto be more the result of how blood was circulating especially as it was always described as temporary. a rash is in the dermal layer, the way i read it it was the circulatory system. they said rash for want of better words. kind of sounded more like bruising to me which is under the skin maybe more visible with a lack of circulation that makes the skin more transparent? was described as "cyanosed" by dr j and a quick google with frightening results shows that.

To be honest I think they’ve stated their position already under oath on condition of child A and B, and like professionals, they’re keeping their testimony to court rather than courting the press.

It is actually confidential medical information, which was collated and collected for specific reasons - a court trial. So although much is in the public domain, I don’t think your average ethical physician involved in the care or medical records of these babies would be comfortable blithely discussing it with the daily mail or on twitter. JMO

yeh thats makes total sense tbh.

 

[mrC]

acritical baby was brocken i dont think the jury knew that Critical baby monitor at Lucy Letby hospital was broken during infant death spike

 

[joltz]

acritical baby was brocken i dont think the jury knew that Critical baby monitor at Lucy Letby hospital was broken during infant death spike

Old news.

 

[Tortoise]

acritical baby was brocken i dont think the jury knew that Critical baby monitor at Lucy Letby hospital was broken during infant death spike

They even corrected their article to say the jury was told.

 

[Sweeper2000]

in furtherance to what you were saying magi. i really do think they totally ruled it out, dr lee's suggestion of a thrombus being the cause and the thrombus being caused by the line. heres another thing that makes me think dr lee isn't being thorough here check this out.


"In the last week there's been examination of the 'abnormal' position of a long line (used to deliver fluids) to Child A. Dr Evans is asked if he has seen any evidence to suggest the positioning of this LINE WAS a cause of death. 'NONE AT ALL', he says

Dr Evans says the cause of death with Child A is an air embolism (bubble)..he explains: 'It interferes with the blood supply to the heart and lungs, mechanism is the SAME AS A CLOT that goes into the lungs'

Independent medical expert Dr Sandie Bohin, who peer reviewed Dr Evans' findings, came to the same conclusion - that Child A died from an air embolism

Dr Evans is now back in the witness box, he's discussing Child B's case. He says the cause of her collapse - like her brother Child A - was an air embolism, 'there was nothing else to explain this collapse, which was so sudden and unexpected', he said"

https://x.com/MrDanDonoghue

Although dr lee said the clot could have travelled tot he brain but reading this along with checks from gosh to me means they could not have been more thorough in ruling it out and were aware it was a potential at the time.

In furtherance to this and dr lee's statements on it being a thrombus. Dr lee's position is that it the mothers condition that made the thrombus more likely this alone in my laymans opinion discounts that but his position was also that a thrombus travelled tot eh brain and was not found at autopsy as its very difficult to find. it may also be true that the additional evidence (dr arthurs and dr marneridez) actually bolsters dr evans more so than dr lee. dr lee has no evidence to support his position on the thrombus whereas the prosecution do for theirs. im not sure of the extent to which investigations were carrid out for baby A but i would imagine the scans showing the line of gas may also give an indication to any thrombus if present. he would also have to clarify how it is that the skin colour issue would also be present in his thrombus theory.

 

[Sweeper2000]

In furtherance to this and dr lee's statements on it being a thrombus. Dr lee's position is that it the mothers condition that made the thrombus more likely this alone in my laymans opinion discounts that but his position was also that a thrombus travelled tot eh brain and was not found at autopsy as its very difficult to find. it may also be true that the additional evidence (dr arthurs and dr marneridez) actually bolsters dr evans more so than dr lee. dr lee has no evidence to support his position on the thrombus whereas the prosecution do for theirs. im not sure of the extent to which investigations were carrid out for baby A but i would imagine the scans showing the line of gas may also give an indication to any thrombus if present. he would also have to clarify how it is that the skin colour issue would also be present in his thrombus theory.

right listening to the press conference dr lee IS SAYING the mothers condition IS A contributory factor in his supposed thrombus and there was evidence of clotting in the liver which means a thrombus event happened. He is also saying the catheter being left in for four hours without infusion also increases the risk of a clot forming on the end of the catheter, its a known risk. hes saying when the infusion started after the four hours there was a clot already there which migrated to the brain stem after the infusion was started within minujtes of that infuson was when baby A collapsed. he also says that clot could be very small and still affect the blood flow.

What I don't get is how he can say the clotting in the liver is related to the clotting on the catheter which presumably happened at different times unless hes saying the moms condition is a factor in both clotting events. I genuinely want to know what his thinking would be if he knew the antibody condition is verified as not affecting baby A. His thrombus thoery seems heavily influenced by moms condition. I find it diffcult to believe a thrombus was present even if small that was not picked up on after the scans. his postion was that at autopsy it was missed as its difficult to detect but does he know about the scans and dr marn at the trial? I might guess dr marn is actually more qualified to speak on that as it is his specialty.

 

[mrC]

are yes theres abit in the sun about it if there talking about the same moniter Baby monitor at Lucy Letby’s hospital ‘was broken’ when babies died, doc reveals

 

[mrC]

how could the jury of been aware of it if the documents have just been leaked

 

[Sweeper2000]

are yes theres abit in the sun about it if there talking about the same moniter Baby monitor at Lucy Letby’s hospital ‘was broken’ when babies died, doc reveals

think it was stated by lucy letby herself there was a replacement available if needed.

 

[mrC]

there was also Pseudomonas aeruginosa in the tap