UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

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  • #881

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  • #882
This is the transcript from the police interview- they had no evidence- that part of the interview after the question is blank. Also of interest is even at that point they acknowledge she wasn’t there for one of the deaths that was suspicious- so that was either poor care or someone else.
It doesn't say all the 13 deaths were suspicious. 13 was the total deaths on the unit over the period, and she was there for 12 of them, on shift for 10, and on the shift just prior for two of the deaths (see link). The police/Dr Evans investigated all the deaths in the period, to determine which, if any, were suspicious.

link for LL's shifts (excluding triplets O & P on this spreadsheet) https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0010072_TAB1.pdf

link for 13 deaths on the NNU - https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0108782.pdf
 
  • #883
It doesn't say all the 13 deaths were suspicious. 13 was the total deaths on the unit over the period, and she was there for 12 of them, on shift for 10, and on the shift just prior for two of the deaths (see link). The police/Dr Evans investigated all the deaths in the period, to determine which, if any, were suspicious.

link for LL's shifts (excluding triplets O & P on this spreadsheet) https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0010072_TAB1.pdf

link for 13 deaths on the NNU - https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0108782.pdf
I don’t believe you actually read my posts and just comment negatively- it refers to the 9 deaths that Dr Brearey investigated and discussed in the initial police interview and Dr J then says she wasn’t actually on duty for one of them.- where did you get 13 from my post????? Your links have nothing to do with what my post discussed. If you want to paste my comment at least have the courtesy to discuss the post.
 
  • #884

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I don’t believe you actually read my posts and just comment negatively- it refers to the 9 deaths that Dr Brearey investigated and discussed in the initial police interview and Dr J then says she wasn’t actually on duty for one of them.- where did you get 13 from my post????? Your links have nothing to do with what my post discussed. If you want to paste my comment at least have the courtesy to discuss the post.
The hospital was always investigating every death, all 13, from the moment LL was removed from the NNU.

Ian Harvey letter to Dr Hawdon, consultant neonatologist, 5 Oct 2016:

Thank you for accepting our instructions to carry out a review of case notes and associated records relating to 13 neonatal deaths and four' near misses' from the Countess of Chester Hospital NHS FT.

The minutes of that meeting between police and the consultants you linked stated -

SB - of those 9 we reviewed initially, 6/9 collapsed between 000-0400, which was highly unusual. One of the action was to review the period prior and nothing was found (will share these reviewed) that review also noticed a significant number of collapses.
SB - following on from that thematic we discussed the nurse (Lucy) but no action taken. I shared the report with IH prior to the COC inspection (Feb) at this time the nurse had been put on day shifts for mentoring reasons
Q - Confirm how many that Nurse has been present?
SB - the nurse was present in all but one of the deaths.

Dr Brearey investigated 9 deaths initially, ie. as at Feb 2016, in the thematic review. https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0003251_01-02_07.pdf


By July 2016 there were 13, which was the case when they went to the police in 2017. That is what SB was referring to when he said all but one. That one that she wasn't on duty for occurred after SB's thematic review, in March 2016.

It's not commenting negatively, it's correcting information. The incorrect information was that there was an extra "suspicious" death LL wasn't there for, "so it was poor care or someone else".
 
  • #887
Other experts are saying he wasn’t right though, aren’t they?

I’m not a “fan” of Letby. Nor am I attending Letby parties.

I’m more interested in getting to the bottom of whether these babies were in fact murdered, or whether they were victims of poor care like many qualified medical professionals are saying.

The subject of potential 'poor care' was thoroughly investigated before and DURING the trial.

These 27 incidents of sudden total collapses were NOT cause by 'poor care.'

These babies had thorough medical logs, from all of the nurses and consultants, observation notes detailing every 30 minutes of their time. Each meal, each treatment, each medication, each change of nappies, each check of their vitals, each family visit, each and every response, throughout their stay.

It was not a lack of care or any kind of neglect or incompetence. Most of the victims had strong vitals, were eating and sleeping well and were close to being released from the hospital, when they suddenly collapsed.
Because otherwise Thirlwall is focusing on the wrong thing, and someone has taken the fall for another failing NHS unit.

Letby did not 'take the fall' for a failing unit. Letby was caught ,during the long trial, telling inconsistent stories, and sometimes outright lying about her daily duties. The suspicion fell upon her eventually because of her shady actions and behaviours. She would try to distance herself from certain babies, by not making notations in her medical logs of being in nursery 2, for example.

But later at trial there would be other staff medical logs putting her there, other witness testimonies, and other circumstances shown by her signing off on certain medications, which showed that she was in that particular nursery with that particular baby---in spite of her leaving it out of her own notes. When there is a pattern of that happening with some of the babies who collapsed, that's a problem for Nurse Letby.
Out of interest, if any of the jurors came forward and said that if some of the information known now was presented to them during the trial, then their opinion on guilt would have been different, how would that sit with those of you convinced that the correct verdict was reached?

I don't think there is anything relevant that was not presented at the trial.

Nurse Letby was given many opportunities to give some examples of examples of 'poor care' or understaffing or bad conditions which could have caused these collapses.

The only thing they could point to was the one example of a broken water pipe which sent dirty brown water into a clinic sink.

That problem was immediately fixed and no patients were harmed. No infections came from that incident.
 
  • #888
Yeah. I suppose I’m more forgiving when it comes to the other stuff. I don’t really see anything that corroborates her being a killer.
If you had followed the trial very closely, I think you would have seen the corroboration of her guilt.
I think there’s just as much chance of her “always being there” as there are of her being a serial killer.
No, it wasn't like that. It wasn't just about her 'being there.' It is so much more than just that.

There was a comprehensive 5 year investigation before the trial even began. They scoured reports, every single staff members daily medical logs, hundreds of interviews, of staff, members, patient's families, staff from other clinics who coordinated efforts, and medical experts to review dozens of cases.

They took data from many staff's phones, from electronic instruments in the clinic showing who did what/when, took all of the data about who signed off on which medications and treatments, etc etc....

It was never about her just 'being there'----it was about her being personally involved and connected to each and every unexplained collapse. If it happens a few times it's just bad luck. But when it happens all of the time, it's a pattern thAt's hard to ignore.

After a few unexpected deaths, of babies under her care, her co-workers tried to comfort her, and said that she should take some time away from the 'critical care' nurseries. Maybe work with easier cases and relax and recover a bit. She was angry at the suggestion. Said that she 'needed' to go right back into the critical care unit because she didn't want to have those last tragic memories to take over.

So she got her wish and was allowed by her superiors to stay with most vulnerable babies---and the sudden collapses continued at their high rate. Some staff began to get suspicious but that didn't deter Lucy. Whenever she'd go on her 2 week vacations, there'd be no collapses.

There would be collapses or deaths on the day she left for vacation, none while gone, but on the very day she returned, babies would collapse or die. It's hard for the co-workers to ignore that.
And she was just an ordinary person, the kind who has a Boofle diary with cat vaccination records in it. Surely someone who can commit such heinous crimes out of nowhere, would have, at some point, let their personality-disorder mask slip?

It did slip. Some of her co-workers saw it. And th jury saw her mask slip during the trial. She got caught out in various lies and would double down when caught and continue to lie.
But there’s just nothing on Letby, and it’s confusing.
Not true.
Why would a serial killer basically be told that they’re caught (with everyone having been careful not to actually document the incriminating stuff), then be offered a transfer to a different unit or simply to “leave the unit”, and then decide the best course of action is to stay and fight everyone?

Because she didn't want to stop. She loved 'caring' for the vulnerable preemies and decide who'd live or die that day. She was addicted to it. Even when the doctors and co-workers KNEW and were actively trying to keep her off the floor, babies in her care were still collapsing and dying. She couldn't stop.
But anyway, I can fairly easily imagine her guilty. I can also fairly imagine her being not guilty, and I’m not dismissing this stuff that’s emerged. I’ve never known people to publicly put their necks on the line like this.

I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I don’t think there’s any sort of conspiracy in this case. I think this case is the legal equivalent of the white or blue dress illusion.
It wasn't an illusion. Those babies died gruesome deaths. Many were tortured.

The mother of Baby E walked into the nursery to feed him and found him screaming in pain, bleeding from his mouth. Nurse Lucy insisted that mum go back to hr room, and promised her the doctor was on his way.

3 hours later Baby E died from internal hemmorhage. And Nurse Letby DENIED that the mum had come to the nursery and seen him crying and bleeding. Letby said mum was mistaken. She said the baby was not bleeding.

And Letby's medical notes said that mum never arrived at nursery because the doctor had cancelled the scheduled feeding.

Too bad for Lucy that the mum had immediately called her husband and told him about their baby crying and bleeding. And she told a midwife about it. And Mom had her phone records corroborating her call to husband. And both mom and dad testified at the trial, about the bleeding child.

Lucy tried to deny it and call them mistaken. How would the parents of a dead child not remember or know what happened when they saw him dying?

It was Lucy's word against theirs and Lucy lost. The jury did not believe her. And Lucy was caught falsifying those medical notes because the doctor said he never cancelled that scheduled feeding.

Lucy lied about that too.

So don't try and say that child died from NHS understaffing or poor care etc. He died a brutal death because Nurse Luby assaulted that baby. He lost 1/4 of his total blood that night.

If it was just a natural occurrence, WHY would Letby have lied about the mum arriving at 9 pm to feed him? Why would she lie to the mum by saying the doctor was on his way?

Why didn't Letby actually call a doctor at 9 pm when the baby began bleeding? She wAited nearly an hour, but then she never told anyone he was bleeding from the mouth. She just left a message that there were traces of blood in his diaper.

That's much less urgent than actively bleeding from the mouth. So Letby minimised his symptoms and by the time the consultant got up to speed it was too late. Baby E was in a total collapse and nothing could be done to save him.

Murder of Child E​

4 August 2015​

Child E was born seven weeks premature along with his twin brother, Child F, and weighed less than 1.4kg (3lbs). His mother walks in on Letby trying to murder the newborn after arriving on the unit with his milk. He dies after suffering a fatal bleed believed to be the result of Letby interfering with his nasogastric tube.

  • SexBoy
  • MethodIV air embolism and bleeding from trauma

Offence​

Attempted murder of Child F​

5 August 2015​

Letby laces Child F’s feeding bag with insulin less than 24 hours after murdering his twin brother. A blood sample later confirms “extremely high” insulin levels and very low C-peptide levels – proof he had been injected with insulin.


 
  • #889
Well yes but it seems like it needs something else. It shouldn’t be about a battle of experts, and having to weed out those who are biased/conflicted, and personally I think there’s reasonable suggestions that both Evans and Lee are biased in their findings. There needs to be consensus among truly independent experts. Otherwise, it’s not clear how any lawyer or judge is able to arrive at a legitimate conclusion on whether the jury was misled.
HOW were they biased? Neither of them knew anything about Nurse Letby. They were never told that there MIGHT be a suspect.
 
  • #890
Do you mean because they had twice weekly consultant visits rather than the recommended twice daily? Rather than they werent at work, they just weren’t on site- they were often based 40 miles away at Liverpool.
There were attending consultants, at the clinic every day. Not just twice a week.

Are you referring to individual consultants visiting twice weekly? That would make sense. Many have a private practice and then come to the clinic part of the time.

But there are attending doctors and consultants at the clinic every day and night.
 
  • #891
so why would 25 of the world experts say there was poor when there wasnt there not being paid for any of this
 
  • #892
There were attending consultants, at the clinic every day. Not just twice a week.

Are you referring to individual consultants visiting twice weekly? That would make sense. Many have a private practice and then come to the clinic part of the time.

But there are attending doctors and consultants at the clinic every day and night.
There were gaps in the rotas for the consultants as they had 6 not 7 consultants in 2015 and 2016

 

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  • #893

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  • #895
Throughout that period, the inquiry has heard, the neonatal unit had a serious shortage of consultants and junior doctors. Executives were warned at a meeting in January 2016 that the hospital’s paediatric service was “almost at breaking point” and needed support “before it hits the point of burnout”, according to minutes of a meeting published by the inquiry.

There were seven consultants spread between the neonatal unit and the children’s ward, with plans to recruit another two. This meant senior doctors would carry out ward rounds only twice a week, compared with daily at other hospitals.

Worth also noting in the minutes linked in the inquiry document in the article asking for increased staffing, they also note 5 cases of diabetes in a month on the unit- you have to wonder if these were subsequently looked at properly or the spike just left alone.

 
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  • #896
Throw in a nursing shortage- that even the parents noticed

The staffing issues extended to Letby’s nursing colleagues, whose rota was a fifth below national guidelines, with few qualified to treat the sickest babies.

Gibbs said the shortage of nurses had been a “longstanding problem” on the unit – it had been identified as a risk five years earlier, in 2010 – but that staffing levels were slightly better than on comparable wards in Cheshire and Merseyside.

Powell, the ward manager, told the inquirythey lost two of their most qualified nurses – advanced neonatal practitioners (ANNPs) – some years before the spike in deaths for “financial reasons”. Other NHS trusts regard ANNPs as an “integral part” of neonatal units but the Countess of Chester was without one, even though it was treating a growing number of vulnerable premature babies.

Parents could tell the unit was stretched. “There was a board on the wall that said how many staff should be on duty and how many staff were actually on duty,” said the mother of Child N, a newborn boy whom Letby was convicted of attempting to kill. “The board said five or six should be working, but there were usually three or sometimes four.”

 
  • #897

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What have supposed staff shortages got to do with Letby's killing spree?

Hospitals up and down the country suffer from staff shortages.

Unless you're saying if more staff were on the ward, Letby's opportunities to attack babies would have been limited.
 
  • #899
  • #900
so why would 25 of the world experts say there was poor when there wasnt there not being paid for any of this
What have supposed staff shortages got to do with Letby's killing spree?

Hospitals up and down the country suffer from staff shortages.

Unless you're saying if more staff were on the ward, Letby's opportunities to attack babies would have been limited.
They just don't get it do they?
This is pretty standard stuff in the NHS and COC is being held under a microscope and every fault pored over.

None if this detracts from the fact that Letby was murdering banied.
 
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