UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[Marantz4250b]

Just to highlight the idiocy of some of the commentary surrounding the Letby trial, I have just seen a clip of Julia Hartley-Brewer interviewing Mike Neville, a "Former Met Police DCI". About 2 minutes in he says, quote, "...one of the key prosecution witnesses, Dr. Evans, has gone back on his story and basically said 'I now believe that she's not responsible for the deaths'". That's news to me. He then goes on a ramble about the "eminent" peeps on Dr. Shoo Lee's panel.

Where do media organisations keep finding these know-nothings from? (around 2m, 48s).

Mike Neville! Anyone of a certain age from round my way will recognise that name as the bloke who did the BBC Look North news programme for absolutely decades. He was known as a "colourful" character, by all accounts (I believe my dad knew him), and was apparently the inspiration for the Viz character Roger Mellie the Man on the Telly.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Mike Neville! Anyone of a certain age from round my way will recognise that name as the bloke who did the BBC Look North news programme for absolutely decades. He was known as a "colourful" character, by all accounts (I believe my dad knew him), and was apparently the inspiration for the Viz character Roger Mellie the Man on the Telly.

Media need to keep the story rolling ahead to keep readers coming back and “engaged” so any pundit / talking head will do …

 

[Marantz4250b]

Media need to keep the story rolling ahead to keep readers coming back and “engaged” so any pundit / talking head will do …

I should have been more clear - it's not the same guy. Just same name.

 

[marynnu]

I just still to this day struggle to comprehend that you suspect someone maybe murdering babies in your unit and you feel no one is listening to you in management and you still sit back and do nothing. I realise most don’t agree, but that is a harsh reality to comprehend, that most people value other things above doing the right thing.

It's easy to simplify and criticise when you're not in the situation. And sitting on a very high horse helps of course.

 

[May72031]

Riddle me this. The people who insist Letby was a "scapegoat" to cover for hospital mismanagement, now seem upset that the hospital management have been arrested!

 

[Sweeper2000]

Riddle me this. The people who insist Letby was a "scapegoat" to cover for hospital mismanagement, now seem upset that the hospital management have been arrested!

but it wasnt the management or letby, it was the doctors who very suspiciously raised the alarm. all the docs fault.

I can't say for sure but I see something like this played out almost as a matter of course with some people seemingly at a individual level or collective. Its almost like a "whoever smelt it dealt it" kind of dynamic. forgive the phrase. in this scenario we know it was the docs who really pushed for something to be done, time and again. almost like in raising a problem you become the problem.

 

[Furore]

It's easy to simplify and criticise when you're not in the situation. And sitting on a very high horse helps of course.

I actually think it’s just really difficult to believe that someone you work with can do such a thing. So difficult when it’s not like they have direct incontrovertible proof like CCTV etc, you’d constantly check and doubt yourself, particularly when people in a position of trust should be doing it. I actually also think because Letby was off the unit and under investigation they felt more comfortable to do things as management wished. It was the insistence on her return to clinical duties that made things happen. I believe they felt they were doing the right thing, in awaiting the internal investigation. MOO

 

[minusfour]

I'm glad the managers are being held accountable. They should have done a lot better. I recall that Harold Shipmen, the "Doctor Of Death" was also cleared of suspected wrong doing in a apparently inadequate investigation, after local GPs wondered about the amount of death certificates he was signing-all for older patients, but so many!.

I imagine these managers have pretty stressful jobs, managing all sorts of tricky situations on a probably inadequate budgets- which sounds awful, at least to me. Still, when other professionals come to you with such grave suspicions, to fail to investigate these seriously is unforgivable. If serious concern of a high rate of death of tiny babies and older people cannot be given by such managers, I hate to think what other problems have been dismissed by them.

I am glad they are facing charges. Their negligence needs to be dragged out into the sun light. This may well include systemic problems which deserve to be aired, and considered. These might comprehension of what led them to disregard serious concerns about premature ill babies being intentionally seriously harmed, or murdered by a member of their team. Such was there negligence that further babies were killed. Why? That's what I want to know, I hope we find out something!

 

[Parker Knoll]

Well well well.
It’s turning into quite a week.

Prosecutors consider more charges against Lucy Letby

Letby, 35, is serving 15 whole-life orders after being found guilty of murdering seven children and attempting to murder seven more between June 2015 and June 2016. Letby's lawyers are claiming there is "overwhelming and compelling evidence" that her convictions are unsafe.

news.sky.com

 

[Tortoise]

I do wonder at times whether retrying the baby K case in isolation (dislodged breathing tube) was anything to do with the ongoing investigations which had allegedly turned up a larger than usual number of dislodged breathing tubes on LL's shifts.

I also wonder if they do bring further charges whether they might now reconsider retrying her on the cases where the jury was unable to reach a verdict, or at least some of them.

 

[Tortoise]

Cheshire Police said it had "submitted a full file of evidence to the CPS for charging advice regarding the ongoing investigation into deaths and non-fatal collapses of babies at the neonatal units of both the Countess of Chester Hospital and the Liverpool Women's Hospital as part of Operation Hummingbird".

Prosecutors considering further charges against Lucy Letby

The Crown Prosecution Service is considering a "full file" of evidence submitted by Cheshire Police.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm not quite sure how to look at that tbh. Looking at the way the countess was I can see things slipping under the net but the liverpool women's and she was just a student there right? so presumably allot of oversight and supervision. We also have to think of the mortality levels at the coch, she was only there for four or so years right? was the increase not noted? wondering what people think tbh. I might just make exception if there was only one unexpected and estimated excessive death per year and I also wouldn't think that incidents like breathing tube displacement would be noticed that much.

 

[Parker Knoll]

We don’t know what the charges ( if they come ) will be though yet as iirc the police were looking at her whole “ career “ of over 4000 babies.
Also it could be multiple charges on one baby not 12 babies ?
It’s both LW and Chester so how the ghouls are going to spin the fact that Dewi Evan’s was NOT at LW but yet still potential arrests for Letby remains to be seen.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not quite sure how to look at that tbh. Looking at the way the countess was I can see things slipping under the net but the liverpool women's and she was just a student there right? so presumably allot of oversight and supervision. We also have to think of the mortality levels at the coch, she was only there for four or so years right? was the increase not noted? wondering what people think tbh. I might just make exception if there was only one unexpected and estimated excessive death per year and I also wouldn't think that incidents like breathing tube displacement would be noticed that much.

She was qualified when she did her placements at Liverpool.

"Letby qualified as a children's nurse at the University of Chester in 2011 and first started working at the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital on 2 January 2012."

Lucy Letby: the full story of her murders and how people tried to stop her

Letby will now die in prison and has no prospect of ever being released after being given a whole life order

www.dailypost.co.uk

"As detailed in news reports and information provided by Cheshire Police, there is an ongoing investigation relating to the full period of Lucy Letby’s career, including training placements at Liverpool Women’s Hospital, which took place between October – December 2012 and January – February 2015."

Our stories :: NHS University Hospitals of Liverpool Group

Stories and news from Liverpool University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust

liverpoolwomens.nhs.uk

I think there would always have been opportunities, even when training, when colleagues had to step outside the room or were busy with backs turned for a minute.

 

[Tortoise]

Where is the figure of 12 coming from @Parker Knoll ?

Ah, don't worry I've just seen it's from Liz Hull "The Mail understands there are more than a dozen potential offences included in the file"

Prosecutors are looking at charging Lucy Letby with MORE baby murders

 

[Parker Knoll]

IF arrests are made who's going to represent her ?
Is poor old Ben Myers going to take another one for the team ?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Well well well.
It’s turning into quite a week.

Prosecutors consider more charges against Lucy Letby

Letby, 35, is serving 15 whole-life orders after being found guilty of murdering seven children and attempting to murder seven more between June 2015 and June 2016. Letby's lawyers are claiming there is "overwhelming and compelling evidence" that her convictions are unsafe.

news.sky.com

Isn't it just!

It's noticeable that the article only mentions potential further charges. It doesn't say against whom but it highly likely LL. It could relate to managers, etc.

 

[JosieJo]

Detectives investigating the former nurse Lucy Letby have passed evidence to prosecutors alleging she murdered and harmed more babies.

Lucy Letby alleged to have murdered and harmed more babies

CPS says it is considering more charges against former nurse after evidence from Cheshire police detectives

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sweeper2000]

We don’t know what the charges ( if they come ) will be though yet as iirc the police were looking at her whole “ career “ of over 4000 babies.
Also it could be multiple charges on one baby not 12 babies ?
It’s both LW and Chester so how the ghouls are going to spin the fact that Dewi Evan’s was NOT at LW but yet still potential arrests for Letby remains to be seen.

good points. I am also wondering now about the processes of the case files handed to the cps such as whats the bar for handing them a case file and then what does the cps do with it ? obvioulsy the police wont hand them nothing but would then the cps look at it and either agree or not with the police's line?

She was qualified when she did her placements at Liverpool.

"Letby qualified as a children's nurse at the University of Chester in 2011 and first started working at the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital on 2 January 2012."

Lucy Letby: the full story of her murders and how people tried to stop her

Letby will now die in prison and has no prospect of ever being released after being given a whole life order

www.dailypost.co.uk

"As detailed in news reports and information provided by Cheshire Police, there is an ongoing investigation relating to the full period of Lucy Letby’s career, including training placements at Liverpool Women’s Hospital, which took place between October – December 2012 and January – February 2015."

Our stories :: NHS University Hospitals of Liverpool Group

Stories and news from Liverpool University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust

liverpoolwomens.nhs.uk

I think there would always have been opportunities, even when training, when colleagues had to step outside the room or were busy with backs turned for a minute.

spot on as always. have to say I really agree with doc evans here as well as it seemed to me her pattern would have been escalatory in nature.

'One thing we can be reasonably sure of is that Lucy Letby did not turn up to work one day and decide to inject a baby with air into their bloodstream,' Dr Evans said. 'I think the modus operandi evolved over time and I think that prior to air embolus tube displacement was probably something that she did.'

Prosecutors are looking at charging Lucy Letby with MORE baby murders

Detectives investigating Lucy Letby have passed a file of new evidence to prosecutors for advice on whether she should be charged with more crimes.

www.dailymail.co.uk

To me, all in all and imo i really do think the question of if she wanted to be caught is worth asking.

 

[ellyvantelli]

Lucy Letby alleged to have murdered and harmed more babies

CPS says it is considering more charges against former nurse after evidence from Cheshire police detectives

www.theguardian.com

Certainly fighting talk right out the gate from her new barrister:

The CPS said on Wednesday it had “received a full file of evidence from Cheshire constabulary asking us to consider further allegations in relation to deaths and non-fatal collapses of babies at the Countess of Chester hospital and Liverpool Women’s hospital”….
...Mark McDonald, Letby’s new barrister...
…McDonald, a barrister at Furnival Chambers, said: “We will cross every bridge when we get to it but if Lucy is charged I know we have a whole army of internationally renowned medical experts who will totally undermine the prosecution’s unfounded allegations.”

bbm/rsbm

I would also question how a legally trained mind can assert that allegations, the details of which he has not yet heard, & evidence he has not yet seen can be declared to be "unfounded" quite so
peremptorily. Assuming, of course, his army of internationally renowned medical experts aren’t just hands for hire.
JMOO