UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[Anxala]

The convictions of Lucy Letby: should they be overturned?

When the former nurse was found guilty of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder seven others, a 1980s research paper was key to the prosecution’s case. But the author of the paper himself believes there has been a miscarriage of justice – and so too do other doctors

www.theguardian.com

I have given up making comments on this case due to the negative response. I would just mention that a man who saved 38 years in jail for a crime was released recently.

With no parallels whatsoever with this case.

And please, don't use an innocent man who's undergone a truly terrible 38yr injustice to try and back up your miscarriage of justice position on Letby.

Apart from anything else, it's so disrespectful to Peter Sullivan to even talk about him in the same breath as her.

 

[Ruthbullock]

How did the police invite the press? Weren’t they just doing their job, looking for hidden items?

Given they were digging at the home of a once in a generation possible serial killer nurse, fairly sure any self respecting press would attend themselves!

Are you seriously asking if there is a conspiracy theory by the consultants, police and entire establishment to unlawfully convict an innocent nurse? Like dude, why?

All MOO

No- I’m asking why they invited the press along- it’s a simple question and not done in most other investigations? You are trying to paint the picture of a conspiracy theory- my question is simple and requires a simple answer, not distraction by evading a response and suggesting something different.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Isn’t he just saying he wants to meet/confirm with the execs to get their formal agreement to get the police involved?

He also wants to check with his medical defence union what his whistleblower protection without the exec agreement would be before going to police “off his own back”. That’s just because there are ways of doing things and involving external agencies should be escalated up the chain of command (I have posted whistleblower policies from NHS trusts on this forum previously).

I certainly don’t think his emails are preventing anyone talking to the police. Indeed his last seems to confirm his belief that the trust are going to the police?

You seem to have a bias against Dr J that is causing some unusual interpretation of this correspondence.
JMO

Are you ignoring the following post where the execs also wanted to go to the police in 2016- someone pushed the agenda to people not to go to the police as on that date, within an hour we have numerous emails back and forth, we have a consultant, Ian Harvey and Alison Kelly all wanting to report it to the police- there are several people who don’t take a stance either way, and one person who says not to go to the police. I have no bias towards who it was who stopped the referral, but someone did and it wasn’t the people we have been led to believe were not wanting to report it- or do you believe all those people just suddenly decided separately ahhh no let’s not bother going to the police after all, and waited a year? I’m open to hearing alternative suggestions for who stopped the referral or why- but someone did.

 

[Furore]

There will certainly be more cases brought against letby. However those allegations will again take meticulous evidence gathering before they can be brought to trial. It also takes time (sometimes years) to create the evidence base for a just, fair, and thorough prosecution - and then for that to be booked into the court - which has a backlog and shortage of judiciary.

Eg ‘
Baker revealed that babies’ breathing tubes were dislodged at a disproportionate rate during Letby’s placements in late 2012 and early 2015 at Liverpool women’s hospital.

He told the inquiry that collapses of babies in neonatal units caused by events such as dislodgement of endotracheal tubes – a feature of some of the allegations levelled at Letby during her criminal trials – was “uncommon”.

He said: “It generally occurs in less than 1% of shifts.

“You will hear that an audit carried out by Liverpool women’s hospital recorded that whilst Lucy Letby was working there, dislodgement of endotracheal tubes occurred in 40% of shifts that she worked. One may wonder why.”

Liverpool Women’s NHS foundation trust has previously confirmed it was working with Cheshire police on the investigation into Letby’s time at the hospital.’

Lucy Letby conspiracy theorists ‘should be ashamed’, inquiry told

Parents of babies murdered by former hospital nurse say critics using families’ losses to build their own reputations

www.theguardian.com

The rest MOO

 

[Ruthbullock]

There will certainly be more cases brought against letby. However those allegations will again take meticulous evidence gathering before they can be brought to trial. It also takes time (sometimes years) to create the evidence base for a just, fair, and thorough prosecution - and then for that to be booked into the court - which has a backlog and shortage of judiciary.

Eg ‘
Baker revealed that babies’ breathing tubes were dislodged at a disproportionate rate during Letby’s placements in late 2012 and early 2015 at Liverpool women’s hospital.

He told the inquiry that collapses of babies in neonatal units caused by events such as dislodgement of endotracheal tubes – a feature of some of the allegations levelled at Letby during her criminal trials – was “uncommon”.

He said: “It generally occurs in less than 1% of shifts.

“You will hear that an audit carried out by Liverpool women’s hospital recorded that whilst Lucy Letby was working there, dislodgement of endotracheal tubes occurred in 40% of shifts that she worked. One may wonder why.”

Liverpool Women’s NHS foundation trust has previously confirmed it was working with Cheshire police on the investigation into Letby’s time at the hospital.’

Lucy Letby conspiracy theorists ‘should be ashamed’, inquiry told

Parents of babies murdered by former hospital nurse say critics using families’ losses to build their own reputations

www.theguardian.com

The rest MOO

How many shifts were there in 2015- I’m going to suggest there were 2 shifts a day- so over 700 shifts, Letby worked 11 of them, was not allocated her own babies, nor had access to drugs. In 2012 Letby had 2 mentors was not allowed to medicate, was not paid, was not allocated children and was not supposed to be unsupervised, although they have accepted there may have been the odd occasion where the other nurses were preoccupied with resuscitations in the same room and were not always directly observing her. If they have got cases they feel need investigating, I’m not sure there is the volume that takes years and years to investigate.

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0017472.pdf

 

[WaneLyrical]

I fear you may be disappointed, she is currently jailed for life. Financially (with the remit of it being pursued in the public interest), I’m not sure even if they had evidence whether they would pursue it, the only reason they would pursue more charges at this point would be if the CCRC agreed a retrial, or she was released). It is over 10 years ago and the sheer fact they told us they were investigating more charges when the first trial finished and none have been forthcoming, I would be surprised if anymore come to be public knowledge, I think any suspicions about any other crimes will be quietly dropped, unless she is released. They may well be keeping them quietly on the back burner unless needed, but is that really getting justice for the victims, or is it a bit of a power play? Do you think there is a reason to delay any further charges at this point? Does the inquiry come into play here or public perception around the case? Or the CCRC application?

I agree with you, I think the chances of any further charges are practically zero. I don’t even think we’ll see Thirlwall’s report, it’ll be delayed until her case has been to the court of appeal. At this point, based on everything I’ve seen that’s come out post-trial, I think the entire case against Letby is a work of fiction. Another disgraceful miscarriage of justice that will hopefully help drive the much needed change in our justice system.

 

[OhDannyBoi]

I would assume the police can do that without having to bring the press along?

And where's the evidence that they brought the press along?

The photos of the search were posted by a photographer on Getty Images. Paparazzi and crime scene vultures don't have an official affiliation with the police.

 

[OhDannyBoi]

I agree with you, I think the chances of any further charges are practically zero. I don’t even think we’ll see Thirlwall’s report, it’ll be delayed until her case has been to the court of appeal. At this point, based on everything I’ve seen that’s come out post-trial, I think the entire case against Letby is a work of fiction. Another disgraceful miscarriage of justice that will hopefully help drive the much needed change in our justice system.

It's not zero nor is it work of fiction like the New Yorker piece. You've been consuming conspiratorial content and you should be careful about that as it's not goig to be something that leaves you with an accurate assessment of where this case has gone nor where it's going.

We know that TI has made reference to further cases under investigation, that Letby has once more been questioned under caution and that there were potentially 2-3 cases flagged at LWH as suspicious non-fatal collapses that Letby was present for along with potentially 2-3 further cases at the Countess.

 

[WaneLyrical]

It's not zero nor is it work of fiction like the New Yorker piece. You've been consuming conspiratorial content and you should be careful about that as it's not goig to be something that leaves you with an accurate assessment of where this case has gone nor where it's going.

We know that TI has made reference to further cases under investigation, that Letby has once more been questioned under caution and that there were potentially 2-3 cases flagged at LWH as suspicious non-fatal collapses that Letby was present for along with potentially 2-3 further cases at the Countess.

I haven’t consumed any ‘conspiratorial content’, I followed every second of the trial like most other people here. I was just more persuaded by the defence’s arguments than the prosecution. And what’s come out of thirlwall has reinforced this further for me. That’s all.

 

[OhDannyBoi]

I haven’t consumed any ‘conspiratorial content’, I followed every second of the trial like most other people here. I was just more persuaded by the defence’s arguments than the prosecution. And what’s come out of thirlwall has reinforced this further for me. That’s all.

Doubtful given what you've written. Especially with how the Thirlwall Inquiry has made a point of highlighting more details we were not privvy to prior as it would have prejudiced the jury in the original trial.

Or did you miss the part where Letby accidentally gave a lethal dose of morphine to a patient and then was upset she lost drug administration privileges temporarily? Or the revelation that she was making up stories about the parents to create drama among her coworkers? As well as the preliminary discovery of LWH tube dislodgement rates comparing Letby to all the others on staff during the same period?

 

[WaneLyrical]

Doubtful given what you've written. Especially with how the Thirlwall Inquiry has made a point of highlighting more details we were not privvy to prior as it would have prejudiced the jury in the original trial.

Or did you miss the part where Letby accidentally gave a lethal dose of morphine to a patient and then was upset she lost drug administration privileges temporarily? Or the revelation that she was making up stories about the parents to create drama among her coworkers? As well as the preliminary discovery of LWH tube dislodgement rates comparing Letby to all the others on staff during the same period?

No I didn’t miss any of those things, but thanks for checking.

 

[OhDannyBoi]

People are not poking holes in the case.
I am asking if the case is "beyond reasonable doubt"
And reading a recently published book about the mistakes the doctors made with each baby.

Is it the one by the anti vaccine doctor who spread covid conspiracies until he was forced to resign?

 

[May72031]

No- I’m asking why they invited the press along...

Where did you get this claim from?

 

[May72031]

At this point, based on everything I’ve seen that’s come out post-trial, I think the entire case against Letby is a work of fiction. Another disgraceful miscarriage of justice that will hopefully help drive the much needed change in our justice system.

There is zero evidence of miscarriage of justice here.

 

[May72031]

I haven’t consumed any ‘conspiratorial content’, I followed every second of the trial like most other people here. I was just more persuaded by the defence’s arguments than the prosecution. And what’s come out of thirlwall has reinforced this further for me. That’s all.

What defence's arguments persuaded you?

 

[Parker Knoll]

They didn’t “ invite the press “
A neighbour called a newspaper and it went from there.

 

[Charlot123]

Is it the one by the anti vaccine doctor who spread covid conspiracies until he was forced to resign?

Er…we have our own anti-vaxxers in the US, plus got “your” British Wakefield, “the originator”, so to say. (Please don’t send more, one was enough). So I can’t trace all UK ones. Who do you mean?

 

[OhDannyBoi]

Er…we have our own anti-vaxxers in the US, plus got “your” British Wakefield, “the originator”, so to say. (Please don’t send more, one was enough). So I can’t trace all UK ones. Who do you mean?

Michael McConville.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It’s not an outrage by any means- but why invite the press? IMO it was presented as though they were searching for bodies, not SIM cards. It’s a bold approach for the police, and often not an approach taken, so this was a deliberate move to inform the press- why?

Who said they "invited" the press? I've never heard that said before.

Do you have evidence of this? If so post it please.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I would assume the police can do that without having to bring the press along?

I've seen no evidence that they brought the press with them. The police don't do that*


*unless they and the BBC are conspiring to embarrass innocent celebs like Cliff Richard, obvs. Which reminds me of one of the reasons I don't watch TV so don't need to pay the BBCs annual television extortion tax.