UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

No it’s not intended to criticise the jury, my post had nothing to do with the jury outcomes.
Your post had 'nothing to do with the jury outcome' ?

What was this info about then?:


Guilty of murder x 7
Unanimous: Baby O
Majority(10:1): Babies A, C, D, E, I & P

Guilty of attempted murder x 6
Unanimous: Babies F & L
Majority(10:1): Babies B, G (2 counts), M & N (1 count)



Wasn't this^^^ all about jury outcomes?
 
I'll stand to be corrected but I don't think any chargs were "dropped", other than one which was one of the mirder charges?
You are correct.

They first arrested her on suspicion of 8 murders and 6 attempted murders,
she was charged with 8 murders and attempted murder of 10 babies.
They only dropped baby K murder charge.
 
Is Ruth talking about events that upon review were thought unusual but later deemed by Dr Evans as medically explicable?
Some were medically explicable but I'm not sure that others weren't charged because they were explicable or whether they simply didn't have sufficient evidence to meet the CPS charing test.

Either way, it is not correct to say that charges were dropped other than the murder charge in relation to baby K.

Specific language matters here.
 
is this what you are referring to ruth? 33 cases were handed to dr evans by the police some of which he discounted as being medically explicable and thus not needing further review?

"He was asked to investigate 33 cases in total, with two insulin cases later.

He said there were two babies were born in unsurvivable conditions, with obvious medical diagnoses.

He said: "The name Lucy Letby meant nothing to me. I didn't know the staff.

"I was the easiest physician and the most difficult. I was a blank sheet of paper. I had no idea and relied entirely on the evidence I could see from the clinical notes and applying my clinical experience and forming an opinion to the cause."

 
The jury can only hear about the indictment cases where there is evidence of deliberate harm.

It wasn't a secret during the trial that operation Hummingbird were still investigating many cases and the whole investigation hadn't been completed.
No it wasn’t, but it was a secret that 25% of the cases that were used to send her to trial were subsequently dropped as they weren’t strong enough to put through a trial process.
 
is this what you are referring to ruth? 33 cases were handed to dr evans by the police some of which he discounted as being medically explicable and thus not needing further review?

"He was asked to investigate 33 cases in total, with two insulin cases later.

He said there were two babies were born in unsurvivable conditions, with obvious medical diagnoses.

He said: "The name Lucy Letby meant nothing to me. I didn't know the staff.

"I was the easiest physician and the most difficult. I was a blank sheet of paper. I had no idea and relied entirely on the evidence I could see from the clinical notes and applying my clinical experience and forming an opinion to the cause."

No I was responding to a poster who stated there were 27 charges brought against Letby. Just made me consider how many of those actually went to trial and the fact that such a high number of cases that she was initially accused of through the judicial process were dropped, but that’s not deemed relevant to a trial (any trial, not specifically just this one), which then got me pondering and posting about the impact of that on juries and whether this blanket approach is always the right one, again not just thinking about this singular case, but cases that have been on here previously- like Libby and some domestic violence cases.
 
But I'm not making assumptions. To believe that some of the jury used media reporting as an "aide memoire" as you put it, is a bit of a reach, that's all I'm saying.
Or maybe I’m just the only one who holds my hands up and admits after 145 days in court I would probably go and read some of the live trial reporting to refresh my brain. I certainly wouldn’t break the judges directions and go reading random articles- but the Cheshire Standard did articles that were allowed to be read by the jury stating live trial reporting and keeping opinion based articles out of them. You think it’s a bit of a reach, I’m saying if I was on the jury and it had been allowed, I would have been reading the summaries of the days court reporting. You obviously believe the jury had some inner moral compass that would have meant they avoided anything of the like, I think human nature is that some of the jury won’t have felt the same need to avoid the court reporting.
 
I'm confused? ...which are the additional 25% cases used to send her to trial?
I don’t know ask @katydid23 it was her post with 27 that I responded to and broke down to charges at the trial.🤷‍♀️
“When you look at 27 incidents where babies had unusual and very similar reactions to the emergency resuscitation---not responding to adrenaline shots, needing 3 to 5 shots instead of one, having unusual body rashes that come and go, going from days of good healthy vitals and feedings to a sudden collapse and rapid deterioration, out of the blue.”
That was her statement and 7 posters agreed it was a valid point- why would I then question the validity of her post?
 
Last edited:
I don’t know ask @katydid23 it was her post with 27 that I responded to and broke down to charges at the trial.🤷‍♀️
“When you look at 27 incidents where babies had unusual and very similar reactions to the emergency resuscitation---not responding to adrenaline shots, needing 3 to 5 shots instead of one, having unusual body rashes that come and go, going from days of good healthy vitals and feedings to a sudden collapse and rapid deterioration, out of the blue.”
That was her statement and 7 posters agreed it was a valid point- why would I then question the validity of her post?


I'm not sure how that equates to dropped charges though? How would you come to the conclusion that cases were used to get it to trial then dropped...from kates post?

Could there be multiple "incidents" for one baby / charge ?

If I'm talking rubbish here apologies as I admit I skim read recently
 
fair is fair im not sure where katydid got the number 27 from? unless its a typo. the charges were of 22 counts of murder or attempted murder in respect of 17 babies.

"The applicant was a qualified nurse working at the neonatal unit (the unit) at the Countess of Chester Hospital (the hospital). She was charged with 22 counts of murder or attempted murder in respect of 17 babies."

 
To be honest, I think if you’re charged with murdering or attempting to murder multiple babies, the 25% where burden of proof or intent didn’t meet the standard required, doesn’t change the fact that children’s lives were endangered or ended, maybe deliberately, and needed testing in court with expert and peer review.

Remember Letby had access to any experts she also wanted. Her team brought out only a plumber.

MOO
 

Dr Roger Norwich, a former locum consultant who lives in Sark, one of the Channel Islands, told the meeting that Dr Evans’ testimony had been discredited by the international panel and that Letby’s case should be referred back to the Court of Appeal.

After the meeting, Dr Evans told Nation.Cymru: “The case against Letby is stronger now than it was when she was convicted.

“I had never heard of Roger Norwich until recently, which suggests he hasn’t played a prominent role in cases of this kind. I don’t know what expertise he has.

“The international panel, which claimed none of the babies had been murdered, did not include a pathologist, a haemotologist, a radiologist, an endocrinologist or an obstetrician. All of the panel’s conclusions are wrong.

“Mark McDonald, the barrister now representing and campaigning for Letby has been a barrister for 28 years, but he’s not a KC, which makes him an ageing junior.

“If these people are the best the pro-Letby camp can come up with, it’s pretty pathetic.”
 
fair is fair im not sure where katydid got the number 27 from? unless its a typo. the charges were of 22 counts of murder or attempted murder in respect of 17 babies.

"The applicant was a qualified nurse working at the neonatal unit (the unit) at the Countess of Chester Hospital (the hospital). She was charged with 22 counts of murder or attempted murder in respect of 17 babies."

Yes, 22 not 27. It wasn't a typo, it was a 'mental typo'---at 73 I have had some memory 'typos' .

Sorry, it should have been 22 incidents.



Lucy Letby was charged with a total of
22 counts related to the deaths and collapses of babies in her care.
These charges included:
  • Seven counts of murder
  • Fifteen counts of attempted murder, involving 10 babies.
 
Yes, 22 not 27. It wasn't a typo, it was a 'mental typo'---at 73 I have had some memory 'typos' .

Sorry, it should have been 22 incidents.



Lucy Letby was charged with a total of
22 counts related to the deaths and collapses of babies in her care.
These charges included:
  • Seven counts of murder
  • Fifteen counts of attempted murder, involving 10 babies.
i think your memory serves just fine Kdid. no apology needed.

i do like that article with Dr evans though. I really do think it sums it up really and does highlight the lack of devoted specialist knowledge in the conference panel. we havent heard much from them of late have we? just a guess but I don't think it will go past the point it has reached. i never knew that about mcdonald either, "a aging junior" lol. i could agree with it as well just judging by the kind of strange media focused efforts we have seen from him. also good to note that his panel does indeed seem to be a random matchup of willing but unfocused medical pro's. I stand by my thinking that was a numbers game, maybe go so far as to say yes they are willing but if that was all that was willing and he could not find specialists in mirror opposition tot he prosecutions team then that says something as well. he would need that i would guess.
 

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