UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

  • #1,041
anyone watch that documentary? kinda seems par for the course to me but i would go back tot he prosecutions main point, unexplained and sudden collapses that do not respond to normal treatment as expected.

Yes I do not think it gave anything new really but I thought

Hall came across well
Modi...not so well
Richard Taylor..came across as "really awful"
McDonald came across as his usual...arrogant fool
The insulin specialist for defence...out of his depth
 
  • #1,042
Yes I watched it sweep.
Not really much to say as it brought absolutely nothing that we have not heard before or has been dealt with through the correct channels.
McDonald is an utter joke and I love that for her.

He is the crème de la crème that she deserves.
 
  • #1,043
Dr Evans response to the other experts’ views that contradict his is that ‘they might know as much as they think they do’.

Dr Evans is a walking disaster. Does that matter that you can’t decide how Letby inflicted harm? Yes, because to retreat to that claim is an admission that you have no medical evidence and if there’s no medical evidence, there’s no crime, and you’ve pulled your ‘7 cases’ out of your penumbra.

Quite simply an astonishing indictment of our legal system.
 
  • #1,044
Dr Evans response to the other experts’ views that contradict his is that ‘they might know as much as they think they do’.

Dr Evans is a walking disaster. Does that matter that you can’t decide how Letby inflicted harm? Yes, because to retreat to that claim is an admission that you have no medical evidence and if there’s no medical evidence, there’s no crime, and you’ve pulled your ‘7 cases’ out of your penumbra.

Quite simply an astonishing indictment of our legal system.
Strictly speaking you don't need to know exactly how she harmed them to conclude she harmed them.
 
  • #1,045
.
Strictly speaking you don't need to know exactly how she harmed them to conclude she harmed them.

So what evidence to we have to have to conclude that:
1) anyone intentionally harmed these babies?
2) Lucy Letby intentionally harmed these babies?
 
  • #1,046
.

So what evidence to we have to have to conclude that:
1) anyone intentionally harmed these babies?
2) Lucy Letby intentionally harmed these babies?

Yawn.
 
  • #1,047
.

So what evidence to we have to have to conclude that:
1) anyone intentionally harmed these babies?
2) Lucy Letby intentionally harmed these babies?

What about Neil Aiton? He said the liver had been ruptured by a needle OR it could have ruptured spontaneously. Is that evidence that Dr Brearey killed baby O?

We know that the “Entire Global Scientific Super Duper Experts” have changed their minds on the needle causing the death of baby O. Hopefully that’s the last we’ll hear from Richard Taylor who broadcast to the world that Dr Brearey is a murderer, despite not seeing the medical files. Now disputed by his own team.

So does it make a difference whether Dr Brearey killed the baby or not?

Dewi Evans gave two possible causes of death during the trial
1. Air injected intravenously
2. Air down the NGT

His case was always that there was no natural cause for the death of baby O and the xray showed air in his tiny body.
 
  • #1,048
Dr Evans response to the other experts’ views that contradict his is that ‘they might know as much as they think they do’.

Dr Evans is a walking disaster. Does that matter that you can’t decide how Letby inflicted harm? Yes, because to retreat to that claim is an admission that you have no medical evidence and if there’s no medical evidence, there’s no crime, and you’ve pulled your ‘7 cases’ out of your penumbra.

Quite simply an astonishing indictment of our legal system.

Evans came across very well. He was assured and confident. McDonald was a blustering idiot. I wouldn't trust a word he said.

And Evans is 100% right. The point is that it's harm either way and because of the nature of the crimes, being 100% definitive about the cause is often impossible.

If I was to murder someone and then grind the body into dust, medical experts wouldn't be able to determine the cause of death.

Does it matter?
 
  • #1,049
.
What about Neil Aiton? He said the liver had been ruptured by a needle OR it could have ruptured spontaneously. Is that evidence that Dr Brearey killed baby O?

We know that the “Entire Global Scientific Super Duper Experts” have changed their minds on the needle causing the death of baby O. Hopefully that’s the last we’ll hear from Richard Taylor who broadcast to the world that Dr Brearey is a murderer, despite not seeing the medical files. Now disputed by his own team.

So does it make a difference whether Dr Brearey killed the baby or not?

Dewi Evans gave two possible causes of death during the trial
1. Air injected intravenously
2. Air down the NGT

His case was always that there was no natural cause for the death of baby O and the xray showed air in his tiny body.

I remember. I wish they did PM in all cases. Nowadays, reading about NICU infections, one wonders if gas could be called by bacteria’s on the unit. Too bad that at the time of the babies dying no one, obviously, suspected anything, as otherwise they’d perform PM in all babies. I hope they kept X-rays.

But, the air was in a specific place, along the vertebral column, if I can remember. Would it be there in air embolism? Maybe it is the only case where there is something to talk about.

Dr. Breary’s thinking might have started this whole LL disaster. Now it is bringing down NHS as day by day we are reading about abysmal condition of the COCH NICU under his care, and about horrible state of COCH itself. If LL is innocent and Breary started the process that will end up in crushing himself as well, what utter foolishness.

Breary lacerated the baby’s liver, question is whether it caused death. But this is exactly what I am pointing at. Doctor Breary’s fine motor skills might be abysmal and his hands, too huge for young preemies, “tiny body” as you put it, and whatnot. But one thing Dr. Breary didn’t do, he didn’t intentionally kill anyone.

So if Lucy took many shifts and maybe she was not the best nurse for NICU, this I can accept. (I once allowed a nurse trainee to use my veins for IV line. And half an hour later, the IV was not there, my arm hurt, I yelled at her and at the anesthesiologist too. That young nurse had poor dexterity, obviously. But not for a second did I suspect her of harboring murderous plans.)

So how did we end up with a serial killer from “not too good of a nurse”?
 
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  • #1,050
I thought that Evans spoke very well in that documentary too. It was a bit of a mess as a documentary, but the absolute light-bulb moment for me was the revelation about Lucy's time at her previous hospital, along with that massive leap in the number of baby feeding-tubes that had been dislodged whilst she was working there. -
 
  • #1,051
Evans came across very well. He was assured and confident. McDonald was a blustering idiot. I wouldn't trust a word he said.

And Evans is 100% right. The point is that it's harm either way and because of the nature of the crimes, being 100% definitive about the cause is often impossible.

If I was to murder someone and then grind the body into dust, medical experts wouldn't be able to determine the cause of death.

Does it matter?
Exactly.

These consultants and experts with their combined decades of experience and expertise between them know a natural death and natural progression of disease when they see it, and they know when they don't see it. The absence of an expected medical pathway is medical evidence. Especially with tiny baby C. IMO

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

"The resuscitation attempts were said to have "failed" after 40 minutes.
Dr Gibbs said it was "standard practice" for attempts to cease after 20 minutes, but staff would carry on for a little longer "in the hope" of the baby responding.
Resuscitation efforts continued after the 40-minute point while the priest arrived to baptise Child C.
He said, "surprisingly", there were some "minimal" signs of life in Child C, and he was "not sure what to do" as it was "unexpected".
He was "not sure" why a feeble heart rate, and breathing gasps, were being recorded for Child C.

He said the problem was that Child C's heart and lungs restarted following the token efforts to resuscitate, and he could not think why that was the case.
"Whatever catastrophic event that had happened [to Child C] had reversed, or begun to reverse.
"I don't understand that from a natural disease process."
He said it was right the parents requested for a priest to arrive for baptism. He adds the difficulty was that Child C's heart and breathing restarted following that."
 
  • #1,052
.

I remember. I wish they did PM in all cases. Nowadays, reading about NICU infections, one wonders if gas could be called by bacteria’s on the unit. Too bad that at the time of the babies dying no one, obviously, suspected anything, as otherwise they’d perform PM in all babies. I hope they kept X-rays.

But, the air was in a specific place, along the vertebral column, if I can remember. Would it be there in air embolism? Maybe it is the only case where there is something to talk about.

Dr. Breary’s thinking might have started this whole LL disaster. Now it is bringing down NHS as day by day we are reading about abysmal condition of the COCH NICU under his care, and about horrible state of COCH itself. If LL is innocent and Breary started the process that will end up in crushing himself as well, what utter foolishness.

Breary lacerated the baby’s liver, question is whether it caused death. But this is exactly what I am pointing at. Doctor Breary’s fine motor skills might be abysmal and his hands, too huge for young preemies, “tiny body” as you put it, and whatnot. But one thing Dr. Breary didn’t do, he didn’t intentionally kill anyone.

So if Lucy took many shifts and maybe she was not the best nurse for NICU, this I can accept. (I once allowed a nurse trainee to use my veins for IV line. And half an hour later, the IV was not there, my arm hurt, I yelled at her and at the anesthesiologist too. That young nurse had poor dexterity, obviously. But not for a second did I suspect her of harboring murderous plans.)

So how did we end up with a serial killer from “not too good of a nurse”?
Every baby bar one had a post mortem.
There is no evidence of bacterial infection.
The idea that a doctor's hands are too big for a neonate is laughable.
Nobody now believes Dr. Brearey lacerated Baby O's liver.
Letby was perfectly capable of working on the unit.
 
  • #1,053
Every baby bar one had a post mortem.
There is no evidence of bacterial infection.
The idea that a doctor's hands are too big for a neonate is laughable.
Nobody now believes Dr. Brearey lacerated Baby O's liver.
Letby was perfectly capable of working on the unit.

I think in this case the words “believe” should be dropped. It should be “what evidence do we have”?

So every baby minus one had a PM. What evidence do we have that there was a serial killer on the unit?
 
  • #1,054
I think in this case the words “believe” should be dropped. It should be “what evidence do we have”?

So every baby minus one had a PM. What evidence do we have that there was a serial killer on the unit?
why ask the question when all you have to do is read up about the trial.
 
  • #1,055
Dr. Breary’s thinking might have started this whole LL disaster.
What a weird statement. Letby's attacks on babies started this whole 'disaster'. Not the people who tried to stop her.
Now it is bringing down NHS as day by day we are reading about abysmal condition of the COCH NICU under his care, and about horrible state of COCH itself.
Where is the evidence it is "bringing down the NHS". Lots of hospitals up and down the running have had periods where they are in "abysmal condition".
If LL is innocent and Breary started the process that will end up in crushing himself as well, what utter foolishness.
That's a massive hypothetical. How on earth can doctors raising the alarm about a serial killer be "utter foolishness". Some people really do have this case back-to-front. Always defending the serial killer, while impugning the whistle-blowers and the people who tried to stop her.
Breary lacerated the baby’s liver, question is whether it caused death. But this is exactly what I am pointing at. Doctor Breary’s fine motor skills might be abysmal and his hands, too huge for young preemies, “tiny body” as you put it, and whatnot. But one thing Dr. Breary didn’t do, he didn’t intentionally kill anyone.
Lots of speculation, there. Did Dr. Richard Taylor ever apologise for wrongly calling a doctor a murderer?
So if Lucy took many shifts and maybe she was not the best nurse for NICU, this I can accept. (I once allowed a nurse trainee to use my veins for IV line. And half an hour later, the IV was not there, my arm hurt, I yelled at her and at the anesthesiologist too. That young nurse had poor dexterity, obviously. But not for a second did I suspect her of harboring murderous plans.)
Seems poor Lucy's nursing skills got fatally worse over time, and just after she received training on the dangers of AE... So unlucky!
So how did we end up with a serial killer from “not too good of a nurse”?
Eh?
 
  • #1,056
I was suprised at Modi ...confidence or arrogance...I know my thoughts ...when she was challenged that she thought the liver trauma could be due to birth trauma...oh yea right ...a baby born by c section with no recorded problems at birth
 
  • #1,057
Just reading one of the posts. Something in the documentary suggesting a "jump" in the dislodgement of breathing tubes? Language suggests more details than those already known to me? Didn't see it myself
 
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  • #1,058
I think the tube dislodgement will be a major feature in the LWH investigation sweep so it could be something they can’t tell us about that ?

Just my opinion obviously.
 
  • #1,059
I think the tube dislodgement will be a major feature in the LWH investigation sweep so it could be something they can’t tell us about that ?

Just my opinion obviously.
Ah so it didn't have any other deets about her time at lwh? As far as I can tell ther4e has been nothing in furtherance to that tube dislodgement figure so thought it might be in he doc but if it was just going over old news then np. Thought we might know if it was actually a jump comparatively by now ie did the numbers jump just while she was there and before and since her time.
 
  • #1,060
.

I remember. I wish they did PM in all cases. Nowadays, reading about NICU infections, one wonders if gas could be called by bacteria’s on the unit. Too bad that at the time of the babies dying no one, obviously, suspected anything, as otherwise they’d perform PM in all babies. I hope they kept X-rays.

But, the air was in a specific place, along the vertebral column, if I can remember. Would it be there in air embolism? Maybe it is the only case where there is something to talk about.

Dr. Breary’s thinking might have started this whole LL disaster. Now it is bringing down NHS as day by day we are reading about abysmal condition of the COCH NICU under his care, and about horrible state of COCH itself. If LL is innocent and Breary started the process that will end up in crushing himself as well, what utter foolishness.

Breary lacerated the baby’s liver, question is whether it caused death. But this is exactly what I am pointing at. Doctor Breary’s fine motor skills might be abysmal and his hands, too huge for young preemies, “tiny body” as you put it, and whatnot. But one thing Dr. Breary didn’t do, he didn’t intentionally kill anyone.

So if Lucy took many shifts and maybe she was not the best nurse for NICU, this I can accept. (I once allowed a nurse trainee to use my veins for IV line. And half an hour later, the IV was not there, my arm hurt, I yelled at her and at the anesthesiologist too. That young nurse had poor dexterity, obviously. But not for a second did I suspect her of harboring murderous plans.)

So how did we end up with a serial killer from “not too good of a nurse”?

Don’t tell me you think a 13 stone man will place two hands on a tiny body and jump up and down in an effort to resuscitate a neonate?

Look up how resuscitation is performed on a baby
 

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