UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[Sweeper2000]

just to rehash. One of the things I think many people remarked on was letby's reactions after the death's and around the parents with an example being her telling the parents "you've said your goodbye's" which was genuinely strange but heres another example i think this time with a photo

View attachment 609475

she is on bail at the time this photo was taken and knew she was being investigated for the murders. I don't know, can't say anything for sure but to me this is strange. Would the average person be allot more restrained? If it were me I would go for my friend but I would be stuck to them like glue as this was her close friend dawn and i would be allot more subdued.

Unseen photo shows Lucy Letby at friend's wedding while on bail

The photo was revealed by her friend Dawn, who did not want to use her surname, as part of a new TV documentary about Letby.

www.dailymail.co.uk

just to re emphasise the point that this may have been slightly strange. Her friend who was getting married actually ahd to seek special permission from the police to have letby attend.

"She added: “I am just so glad she could be there because it was while she was on bail, she had to get special permission to be allowed to come from the police.”"

https://www.the-independent.com/tv/news/lucy-letby-dancing-smiling-wedding-photos-video-b2801404.html?utm_source

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm amazed that there are still so few photos of her out in the wild - especially in light of your comments there. Pretty much everyone in the room would have had a go at taking a sneaky snap of her, I reckon.

There also must have been one or two guys who'd have had a go at chatting her up after a few drinks, I'd have thought!

november 2021 i think. cant say for sure. that clip i just posted has other pics but they are from dawns collection.

 

[Marantz4250b]

november 2021 i think. cant say for sure. that clip i just posted has other pics but they are from dawns collection.

She'd been charged and on remand for a year by that point.

 

[joltz]

So a colleague 'left to get married' but Letby put her career above a love life? Are we talking about the 1950s here? What absolute tosh.

She didn't put her career above it, she was just incapable of having normal relationships I think. That's why her friends were mainly middle aged woman. The type of people who wouldn't be so judgemental about her being a blank-faced, space-staring, empty vessel, incapable of empathy. She never had boyfriends because she wasn't a normal person. Not a single person has come forward to say Letby ever had any romantic relationship with anyone ever. She was 26! Definitely something not right there.

JMO

 

[joltz]

Are you from the appeal court?

Question:
- if there is zero evidence linking Lucy Letby to the untoward events in the COCH in 2015-16, and

- the only witness stating that Lucy Letby was standing at the incubator when the alarm sounded and did nothing, as we know now, lied in this very testimony

- isn't it enough to question the safety of the conviction? The organization of the whole trial?

Another question:

- why hasn't the prosecution accused Dr. Ravi Jayaram of perjury? It is a serious offense in the UK.

An email doesn't prove that Jayaram lied. Realistically it could be a typo, or a mixing up of the other two incidents. We know letby called for help in another desat. The email proves absolutely nothing.

It's funny how Letby can categorically be proven to have lied under oath on multiple occasions but that's ok. Yet an email with Dr J, of which we have zero context, emerges and you are stating that he has been proven to be lying.

He hasn't been proven to have lied whatsoever. He hasn't even commented on it.

Have to just lol at these attitudes

JMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

Why anyone is getting worked up about that email is beyond me.
It was disclosed to the prosecution, defence and the judges at the CoA before her application to appeal her conviction of Baby K.
It’s a nothing burger as usual.

 

[May72031]

Question:
- if there is zero evidence linking Lucy Letby to the untoward events in the COCH in 2015-16, and

Is that question like O.J. Simpson's "If I Did It" book, which infamously had the "If" in really small font compared to the rest of the title?

 

[JosieJo]

She didn't put her career above it, she was just incapable of having normal relationships I think. That's why her friends were mainly middle aged woman. The type of people who wouldn't be so judgemental about her being a blank-faced, space-staring, empty vessel, incapable of empathy. She never had boyfriends because she wasn't a normal person. Not a single person has come forward to say Letby ever had any romantic relationship with anyone ever. She was 26! Definitely something not right there.

JMO

I agree 100% this is exactly how I see her ... awkward, strange..and more comfortable with older women ..she knew herself she "didn't fit in" as per her text to the female Dr
She may have been "social" but a generation ahead of herself.
I'd like to bet the younger women in the unit had little to do with her
I think she became obsessed with Dr A because he was the only male that ever showed interest in her . Despite him also beeing geeky , older and no oil painting.
I think she "may" be the product of older , suffocating, old fashioned parents ..coupled with other mental / psychological issues that are beyond my knowledge of disorders.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Reading Unmasking Lucy Letby by Jonathan Coffey and Judith Moritz, who produced the BBC Panorama documentary.

Have to say, still swinging from one side to the other. In light of facts that weren't brought up at the first trial and especially Dr Dewi Evans' backtracking, it probably does need to go back to court.

I can't see if there has been a motive explained if she allegedly did kill. She obviously wasn't mentally deranged or a psychopath. Did she want to highlight the poor managerial structure at COC, was it ego to make her centre of attention? I can't see it. The only thing that strikes me is that if this wasn't real life it could easily be a storyline from the writers of the ITV drama series Malpractice - especially S2 shown earlier this years. https://www.itv.com/watch/malpractice/10a2194/10a2194a0006

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Jesus wept …. How many times ?
The case didn’t rest of the expert evidence of Dr Evan’s … the prosecution brought in numerous experts in every field.
I take it they are all charlatans as well ?

His theories were pivotal, however. Although his air embolism explanation was an opinion, a theory, if he was wrong, the whole investigation would be based on a false premise. And since his 'theory' has since been discounted...

...no medical evidence to indicate that Letby had injected air into the bloodstream of babies or had committed murder. However, he said the hospital had numerous problems, with staff caring for babies “probably beyond their expected ability or designated level of care.”

Lucy Letby: No medical evidence to suggest murder, experts conclude

An investigation by a panel of 14 international experts into the cause of injury and death of the babies Lucy Letby is convicted of murdering or attempting to murder has claimed that there is “no medical evidence to support malfeasance” and that they were the result of “either natural causes or...

www.bmj.com

 

[JosieJo]

His theories were pivotal, however. Although his air embolism explanation was an opinion, a theory, if he was wrong, the whole investigation would be based on a false premise. And since his 'theory' has since been discounted...

...no medical evidence to indicate that Letby had injected air into the bloodstream of babies or had committed murder. However, he said the hospital had numerous problems, with staff caring for babies “probably beyond their expected ability or designated level of care.”

Lucy Letby: No medical evidence to suggest murder, experts conclude

An investigation by a panel of 14 international experts into the cause of injury and death of the babies Lucy Letby is convicted of murdering or attempting to murder has claimed that there is “no medical evidence to support malfeasance” and that they were the result of “either natural causes or...

www.bmj.com

The only difference between then and now is that the babies in Lee's "literature review" the air was not injected into a vein ..they were arterial...there's no major reasons to believe the rashes wouldn't be the same with venous injection..especially of the type when much larger amounts of air are forced in .
The jury were told this literature review had a very small sample of babies and that is an old paper simply because air embolism is so rare
His theory has not been discounted....an appeal has already been refused on the basis of Lee's paper

 

[JosieJo]

Reading Unmasking Lucy Letby by Jonathan Coffey and Judith Moritz, who produced the BBC Panorama documentary.

Have to say, still swinging from one side to the other. In light of facts that weren't brought up at the first trial and especially Dr Dewi Evans' backtracking, it probably does need to go back to court.

I can't see if there has been a motive explained if she allegedly did kill. She obviously wasn't mentally deranged or a psychopath. Did she want to highlight the poor managerial structure at COC, was it ego to make her centre of attention? I can't see it. The only thing that strikes me is that if this wasn't real life it could easily be a storyline from the writers of the ITV drama series Malpractice - especially S2 shown earlier this years. https://www.itv.com/watch/malpractice/10a2194/10a2194a0006

The motive as i see it and alluded to by the prosecution....she was a spoilt narcissistic jealous brat who couldn't comprehend or deal with not getting her own way ..likely linked with some disorder lacking empathy and normal response.

She used those poor babies because she loved the drama and to get her own way

She attacked when told she couldn't go in the hdu beds

Atracked when her friends didn't support her getting her own way

attacked if she wanted her doctor on the ward

Attacked when she saw her Dr walking off to have a break with a female colleague

Attacked because she had just finished her specialist neonatal qualification and wanted to show of her skills

She loved the drama of death ...implanting herself with grieving parents she had no reason being with

Keeping photos of bereavement cards and searching numerous bereaved parents on Facebook..years later and on Xmas day no less..the exact time parents might post a photo or words of grief

God she makes me sick

 

[Tortoise]

The only difference between then and now is that the babies in Lee's "literature review" the air was not injected into a vein ..they were arterial...there's no major reasons to believe the rashes wouldn't be the same with venous injection..especially of the type when much larger amounts of air are forced in .
The jury were told this literature review had a very small sample of babies and that is an old paper simply because air embolism is so rare
His theory has not been discounted....an appeal has already been refused on the basis of Lee's paper

Professor Kinsey testified that the air would pass into the arterial system -


"Mr Johnson asks if air is injected into the system via a syringe, what would happen.
Prof Kinsey explains the heart would be pumping, and the air bubbles would be broken into larger and tiny bubbles. The lungs would be able to cope with the smaller air bubbles, but the lungs would struggle with the larger air bubbles.
In babies, air bubbles would be going in the arterial circulation - blood returning to the heart passing straight out again without being oxygenated through the lungs.
This would lead to the changes in skin colour - a 'fluctuating' colour pattern, and would, the court hears, lead to the types of sin discolourations as described by doctors and nurses so far in the trial.

2:23pm

The court hears, in adults, the air bubbles would go to the lungs, if not blocked. If the bubbles are blocked, it could cause a pulmonary embolism.
In babies, there is a section of the heart, called the oval foramen, which would still be open, meaning the air bubbles would go to the arterial circulation.
The air bubbles would be absorbed by the haemoglobin, causing skin discolourations which move around the body and a mixture of blue, pink and purple discolouration, Mr Johnson summarises. Professor Kinsey agrees."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 29

Dr Bohin also testified to it -

" 'I'm not backing up what he said. I'm reviewing the case and coming to my own conclusions. If that's in alignment with Dr Evans' view, that's in alignment with his view'.
Mr Myers persisted, asking: 'I suggest you would never have come up with air embolism if you had not been exposed to his view'.
Dr Bohin replied: 'I disagree'.
She told the court she had seen two examples of air embolus in her career. In one of these a bypass machine was being used to try to help a critically ill baby, and she had seen air bubbles in the system that had caused an immediate cardiac arrest.
The clinical presentation of air embolus was wide and varied. In some cases a baby might be resuscitated and recover, in others he or she might die.
If a sufficiently large amount of air was pumped in it could fill the chamber of the heart, 'in which case the heart stops'. Additionally, if the air went through a small hole in the right hand side of the heart it could pass to the left hand side and be pumped around the body and into the coronary arteries."

'Inconsolable' baby 'proved nurse injected air into them,' trial told

 

[Sweeper2000]

Now pump resus efforts into the mix and see if the results are even more varied. My guess is they would be.

 

[Jules2021]

Reading Unmasking Lucy Letby by Jonathan Coffey and Judith Moritz, who produced the BBC Panorama documentary.

Have to say, still swinging from one side to the other. In light of facts that weren't brought up at the first trial and especially Dr Dewi Evans' backtracking, it probably does need to go back to court.

I can't see if there has been a motive explained if she allegedly did kill. She obviously wasn't mentally deranged or a psychopath. Did she want to highlight the poor managerial structure at COC, was it ego to make her centre of attention? I can't see it. The only thing that strikes me is that if this wasn't real life it could easily be a storyline from the writers of the ITV drama series Malpractice - especially S2 shown earlier this years. https://www.itv.com/watch/malpractice/10a2194/10a2194a0006

She wrote exactly why she did it in her post-it confession! "I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them" she knew she wasn't a great nurse and had struggled to pass. Also agree with everything @JosieJo said. Pure narcissism basically. She had a big void in her and could only get happiness from wrecking everyone else's' lives. Seeing happy people celebrating around her would've enraged her.

Narcs always play the victim and nothing is ever their fault-and as far as I know she's never admitted doing anything wrong at all. She would've loved the attention and people feeling sorry for her. Normal life would be far too boring for her and I think she went into nursing thinking it'd be excitement 24/7 and then found out most of it was stuff like doing feeds which she hated. She was always moaning it wasn't like Liverpool which I think took in more higher needs babies? I'll bet she found Chester really boring and quiet. So yeah there's a few possible motives really. I think you're still seeing the poor victim Lucy narcissistic veneer and not what's underneath.

 

[JosieJo]

Professor Kinsey testified that the air would pass into the arterial system -


"Mr Johnson asks if air is injected into the system via a syringe, what would happen.
Prof Kinsey explains the heart would be pumping, and the air bubbles would be broken into larger and tiny bubbles. The lungs would be able to cope with the smaller air bubbles, but the lungs would struggle with the larger air bubbles.
In babies, air bubbles would be going in the arterial circulation - blood returning to the heart passing straight out again without being oxygenated through the lungs.
This would lead to the changes in skin colour - a 'fluctuating' colour pattern, and would, the court hears, lead to the types of sin discolourations as described by doctors and nurses so far in the trial.

2:23pm

The court hears, in adults, the air bubbles would go to the lungs, if not blocked. If the bubbles are blocked, it could cause a pulmonary embolism.
In babies, there is a section of the heart, called the oval foramen, which would still be open, meaning the air bubbles would go to the arterial circulation.
The air bubbles would be absorbed by the haemoglobin, causing skin discolourations which move around the body and a mixture of blue, pink and purple discolouration, Mr Johnson summarises. Professor Kinsey agrees."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 29

Dr Bohin also testified to it -

" 'I'm not backing up what he said. I'm reviewing the case and coming to my own conclusions. If that's in alignment with Dr Evans' view, that's in alignment with his view'.
Mr Myers persisted, asking: 'I suggest you would never have come up with air embolism if you had not been exposed to his view'.
Dr Bohin replied: 'I disagree'.
She told the court she had seen two examples of air embolus in her career. In one of these a bypass machine was being used to try to help a critically ill baby, and she had seen air bubbles in the system that had caused an immediate cardiac arrest.
The clinical presentation of air embolus was wide and varied. In some cases a baby might be resuscitated and recover, in others he or she might die.
If a sufficiently large amount of air was pumped in it could fill the chamber of the heart, 'in which case the heart stops'. Additionally, if the air went through a small hole in the right hand side of the heart it could pass to the left hand side and be pumped around the body and into the coronary arteries."

'Inconsolable' baby 'proved nurse injected air into them,' trial told

Wow so it was even covered at trial ..unbelievable ... the uproar about it

 

[Sweeper2000]

Wow so it was even covered at trial ..unbelievable ... the uproar about it

That's what I thought. I don't get what about that isn't perceived to be solid medical opinion honestly. only remembered it after that memory jog though.

 

[katydid23]

I wonder why she thought this though. She seems to have got on well with a lot of people & was a perfectly nice looking person. It's all very odd.

I think there was a reason she thought that she'd never marry.. I think she was a deeply troubled, emotionally damaged soul.

She 'seemed' to get on well with people, but when we look deeper at her txts and messages to co-workers---much of it was fake, and two-faced. It was a mask.

Beneath that mask was a very sick, twisted person. Anyone who could murder newborn babies, then go about their day and act as though things were just fine----

She had such hidden, sick secrets, and it took everything she had to just keep it all together everyday. So she knew she was never going to be someone's wife and the mother of their children.

Did she ever have an intimate relationship? I think everything was surface level.

Strangely enough, she had the same kind of relationship with her parents that Bryan Kohberger has with his.

BK spoke to his parents every day, for hours. He'd often begin calling his mom at 4 or 5 am---if she didnt answer he'd text his Dad and ask why they aren't answering. And he didnt have any phone calls from any other friends or relatives---just hours of calls with his Mom and Dad.

Lucy used to go on 2 week vacations, twice a year, with her parents. Every year. Never vacationed with anyone else, just Mom and Dad.

The creepiest thing about those vacations----On the day she'd leave work, to go on vacation, every time, a baby would collapse. Then during her vacation, no collapses would happen. But on the very day of her return, every time, a baby would collapse and/or die, as soon as Nurse Lucy returned.

 

[marynnu]

I

I think there was a reason she thought that she'd never marry.. I think she was a deeply troubled, emotionally damaged soul.

She 'seemed' to get on well with people, but when we look deeper at her txts and messages to co-workers---much of it was fake, and two-faced. It was a mask.

Beneath that mask was a very sick, twisted person. Anyone who could murder newborn babies, then go about their day and act as though things were just fine----

She had such hidden, sick secrets, and it took everything she had to just keep it all together everyday. So she knew she was never going to be someone's wife and the mother of their children.

Did she ever have an intimate relationship? I think everything was surface level.

Strangely enough, she had the same kind of relationship with her parents that Bryan Kohberger has with his.

BK spoke to his parents every day, for hours. He'd often begin calling his mom at 4 or 5 am---if she didnt answer he'd text his Dad and ask why they aren't answering. And he didnt have any phone calls from any other friends or relatives---just hours of calls with his Mom and Dad.

Lucy used to go on 2 week vacations, twice a year, with her parents. Every year. Never vacationed with anyone else, just Mom and Dad.

The creepiest thing about those vacations----On the day she'd leave work, to go on vacation, every time, a baby would collapse. Then during her vacation, no collapses would happen. But on the very day of her return, every time, a baby would collapse and/or die, as soon as Nurse Lucy returned.

I think she went to Ibiza with friends. And to me, she seems to have had a reasonablely normal life outside work to be honest.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think there was a reason she thought that she'd never marry.. I think she was a deeply troubled, emotionally damaged soul.

She 'seemed' to get on well with people, but when we look deeper at her txts and messages to co-workers---much of it was fake, and two-faced. It was a mask.

Beneath that mask was a very sick, twisted person. Anyone who could murder newborn babies, then go about their day and act as though things were just fine----

She had such hidden, sick secrets, and it took everything she had to just keep it all together everyday. So she knew she was never going to be someone's wife and the mother of their children.

Did she ever have an intimate relationship? I think everything was surface level.

Strangely enough, she had the same kind of relationship with her parents that Bryan Kohberger has with his.

BK spoke to his parents every day, for hours. He'd often begin calling his mom at 4 or 5 am---if she didnt answer he'd text his Dad and ask why they aren't answering. And he didnt have any phone calls from any other friends or relatives---just hours of calls with his Mom and Dad.

Lucy used to go on 2 week vacations, twice a year, with her parents. Every year. Never vacationed with anyone else, just Mom and Dad.

The creepiest thing about those vacations----On the day she'd leave work, to go on vacation, every time, a baby would collapse. Then during her vacation, no collapses would happen. But on the very day of her return, every time, a baby would collapse and/or die, as soon as Nurse Lucy returned.

First bolded point; I don't think she did. I think that the "affair" with Dr Choc wasn't a sexual one. From what we know of him, I don't think that he was the cheating type as I don't think he had the courage (for want of a better word). I think she knew that which is why she was obsessing over him. She has severe hangups with sex and knew he was a safe bet for it not to go that way. I think he thought she was a safe bet as well.

She did go on holidays with other people, though. She was in Ibiza with her mates shortly before being arrested. There are pics of her with Dawn in a foreign location but I'm not sure that was the same holiday as they both looked very young. Lucy looked noticeably younger than in the publicity shot for the fund raising thing at the hospital. They both look about 20/21 at most.

That's one of the things that really puzzles me; given what we know about her, Ibiza just seems so hugely out of character for her. Yes, she was relatively social going to pubs, dancing classes and suchlike at home but Ibiza for people in their early 20's is 24/7 constantant drinking, partying in huge clubs and shagging, to be very blunt about it. I'm not sure if there's a comparison to make to the US but think Cancun on Spring Break all year round is my best guess.

It just seems so strange given what we know about her. Perhaps it's the case that somewhere like that is so far out of her comfort zone that her head was in so much turmoil that getting back to "normal" is the only thing that would calm her down. Normal for her seemingly was creating merry hell and being in the midst of it. In doing that she could control the world around her.

All just my random thoughts and opinions, obvs.