UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

  • #1,821
So they both testified the 9:11 call was the one where blood was discussed. But this doesn’t align with the midwife’s notes. It seems the blood situation may have occurred even earlier than that.

It doesn’t say anything about Letby’s guilt particularly, just that the timeline as presented in court is really not likely to be accurate, there are so many conflicting bits of evidence.
The midwife's notes from 8 pm say nothing about a screaming baby with blood streaming from his mouth. If she had been told that she would have gone to the nursery and checked it out.

The mom had twin preemie boys in the hospital. Obviously mom had things to discuss with the midwife. The notes said it was about deterioration and medication concerns. I don't think the 8 pm convo was about the 'bleeding from his mouth' incident.
 
  • #1,822
The midwife's notes from 8 pm say nothing about a screaming baby with blood streaming from his mouth. If she had been told that she would have gone to the nursery and checked it out.

The mom had twin preemie boys in the hospital. Obviously mom had things to discuss with the midwife. The notes said it was about deterioration and medication concerns. I don't think the 8 pm convo was about the 'bleeding from his mouth' incident.
Perhaps you didn’t read the bit where I said the notes don’t tally regardless. The fact is, we have a hospital record confirming the deterioration happened prior to 9pm. Unless you are saying there was another deterioration an hour prior which the jury weren’t told about? There wasn’t. It was made extremely clear the baby was stable beforehand.

Saying it could only be 9pm because the feed was scheduled at 9pm is simply repeating what was said in court and it’s not helpful. Common sense would suggest if the feed was scheduled for 9pm, mum would try to get there with the milk prior to that so the feeds could be prepared. That’s not a massive stretch and it’s not calling mum a liar.

Pointing out the call log seems to be very obviously out by an hour is not a conspiracy theory. It’s questioning whether mum’s certainty of the time comes from the call log she obtained, as opposed to memory. It doesn’t change the events or the sequence, but it does change when they occurred, and suggests an even longer amount of time occurred between a bleed being observed and the registrar’s attendance.

It’s a bit like Jayaram’s certainty of the timings in Baby K, he said he was certain because he remembered looking at his watch. But then it transpired the swipe data was reversed and therefore his memory of the timings could not be true.

For the call log to be true, lots of hospital notes would all have to be wrong, not just Letby’s. A Time Machine is required to make the 22:52 call fit. I think mum was there around 8pm and that’s when she saw the blood and says she was told they’d let her know of any other developments, she went back and told the midwife about it and asked to be informed of any other developments, with call to the husband happening at 8:30pm. I think she was there again briefly around 10pm, when Harkness was there, resulting in a 10:10pm call to the husband. Around 11:30pm, when NNU was prepping the baby’s medication and intubation, the midwife was called, leading to a 11:50pm call to husband to make his way to the hospital. There is a further medical record noting both parents were now present just after 1am, which tallies with the length of time it would have taken dad to get to the hospital. We know mum was already there a good while prior to that, the midwife stayed with her in the corridor until she was allowed in the room.

These sorts of glaring discrepancies just should not exist in a case where it’s alleged a baby was physically assaulted in plain sight. These are the sorts of discrepancies which fuel the questioning of these convictions. Pretending the discrepancies don’t exist does not help persuade anyone that the convictions are safe.
 
  • #1,823
I don't know what you are talking about? The call about blood couldn't have happened at 8;30. The mom did not go to the nursery until 9 pm because that is what her SCHEDULED feeding was set for. At 8:30 she was still expressing her milk, in preparation for feeding her twin boys.

She had no way of seeing any bleeding in Baby E before 9 pm.

And it does 'matter in the grand scheme of things' because during the trial Lucy was caught falsifying some of her medical logs. Claiming that a doctor told her to 'OMIT' baby E's 9 pm feed. But there was only one doctor assigned to him, and he said he never cancelled the feeding and his notes verified that. Then Lucy, on the stand, said she couldn't remember which doctor it was that cancelled the feeding. HOWEVER the mom had expressed her milk at 8 pm and arrived at 9 with her milk and was ready to feed her twins. Her testimony and timeline was corroborated by phone records, and testimony of other staff and her husband.

So the jury watched that unfold and they saw the testimony of Baby E's parents, explaining clearly what happened the night of his death. It made a big impact because their timeline coincided with the attending doctor and the midwife they had spoken to.

Lucy looked like a deer in headlights because she had to call the parents liars, but had nothing to corroborate that accusation. She claimed the grieving parents were mistaken about the Mom coming to the nursery at 9 pm with her milk, and mistaken about seeing her baby bleeding from the mouth. Mom had immediately called her husband at 9:11, crying and telling him what happened. He testified in court about that timeline.

Lucy failed in court that day. I really think it was a turning point in her trial. Her testimony did not sound convincing compared to the powerful, grief stricken testimony of Baby E's parents. It was Lucy's word against the parents and they had phone records and the doctors testimony, denying that he had cancelled the 9 pm feed.
These people want to try and discredit anything and everything. The baby E case is a big issue because there was zero issues with the baby before Letby took charge and Letby acknowledged this herself. We also know she was lying and the mother strongly disagreed with Letbys version of events. I don't think baby E in particular is ever going to look good for Letby. The phone records is another red herring. It seems the tactic is to throw as much misinformation as possible to give some doubt because it gets to the point where it becomes much harder to discern the facts and truth from the huge mass of misinformation. The phone records idea is BS


JMO
 
  • #1,824
It’s a bit like Jayaram’s certainty of the timings in Baby K, he said he was certain because he remembered looking at his watch. But then it transpired the swipe data was reversed and therefore his memory of the timings could not be true.
RSBM

Actually, Letby was convicted based on the corrected door swipe data. It transpired his memory was correct.

It was the original jury, with the incorrect door swipe data, that couldn't come to a verdict.

Dr Jayaram never gave a time for looking at his watch, or going into the nursery, he said he became worried two to three minutes after nurse JW left the ward, using his watch. He had never seen the door swipe data before the trial.

If nurse JW had left the ward at 3.47am (incorrect data) and she was back three minutes later co-signing for the precise 3.50am morphine after the emergency, the events couldn't be reliably reconstructed.

In the second trial the corrected door swipe data showed nurse JW coming back into the NNU at 3.47am, after the emergency. They also had the phone log showing Dr Jayaram on the phone to transport services at the nursing station at 3.41am, which meant he was correct, two to three minutes later would have been 3.43-3.44am, three minutes before nurse JW came back in.

There is no mystery as to how the second jury reconciled all the evidence and were sure Letby tried to kill baby K.

Incorrect facts, misstatements of the evidence, ignoring the appeal and non-appeal issues that have already gone before, won't make a jot of difference.
 
  • #1,825
RSBM

Actually, Letby was convicted based on the corrected door swipe data. It transpired his memory was correct.

It was the original jury, with the incorrect door swipe data, that couldn't come to a verdict.

Dr Jayaram never gave a time for looking at his watch, or going into the nursery, he said he became worried two to three minutes after nurse JW left the ward, using his watch. He had never seen the door swipe data before the trial.

If nurse JW had left the ward at 3.47am (incorrect data) and she was back three minutes later co-signing for the precise 3.50am morphine after the emergency, the events couldn't be reliably reconstructed.

In the second trial the corrected door swipe data showed nurse JW coming back into the NNU at 3.47am, after the emergency. They also had the phone log showing Dr Jayaram on the phone to transport services at the nursing station at 3.41am, which meant he was correct, two to three minutes later would have been 3.43-3.44am, three minutes before nurse JW came back in.

There is no mystery as to how the second jury reconciled all the evidence and were sure Letby tried to kill baby K.

Incorrect facts, misstatements of the evidence, ignoring the appeal and non-appeal issues that have already gone before, won't make a jot of difference.
No. Do not twist my words. I said nothing about what Letby was convicted on with regard to Baby K, or who convicted her. I was talking about witness memories.

Trial 1, Jayaram was very very clear in his timings, and attributed this to checking his watch, stating he had no knowledge of any swipe data.

He waited 2.5 minutes after Joanne Williams left the ward at 3:47am, making the event 3:50am.

The timings were all shunted for trial 2, and Jayaram’s previously precise timings are now irrelevant.
 
  • #1,826
In all fairness I'm not sure the timings actually change anything and I always thought it strange that letby would have harmed a baby in the minutes before a parent is due to arrive and then not cleaned the baby up. Does it make more sense that she was unaware that mom was on the way and did something and then is more or less caught by surprise by the mom? Just floating an idea as its difficult to make sense of.

However if the information used to assume the timings are wrong is the nurses notes which are if my memory serves normally written at the end of shift or in retrospect then does that also not make sense then that the nurses handwritten note timings are more likely to be off?
 
  • #1,827
No. Do not twist my words. I said nothing about what Letby was convicted on with regard to Baby K, or who convicted her. I was talking about witness memories.

Trial 1, Jayaram was very very clear in his timings, and attributed this to checking his watch, stating he had no knowledge of any swipe data.

He waited 2.5 minutes after Joanne Williams left the ward at 3:47am, making the event 3:50am.

The timings were all shunted for trial 2, and Jayaram’s previously precise timings are now irrelevant.
Getting yourself into a bit of a pickle here. wrong, wrong and wrong again.

JMO
 
  • #1,828
It’s a bit like Jayaram’s certainty of the timings in Baby K, he said he was certain because he remembered looking at his watch. But then it transpired the swipe data was reversed and therefore his memory of the timings could not be true
I don't think Dr. J remembered the actual time because he looked at is watch, or in fact remembered it at all. That would be absurd. What he recalled was going into Nursery 1 a few minutes after the designated nurse left. The time originally quoted was based on incorrectly reported swipe card data. The corrected data actually makes a lot more sense.
 
  • #1,829
No. Do not twist my words. I said nothing about what Letby was convicted on with regard to Baby K, or who convicted her. I was talking about witness memories.

Trial 1, Jayaram was very very clear in his timings, and attributed this to checking his watch, stating he had no knowledge of any swipe data.

He waited 2.5 minutes after Joanne Williams left the ward at 3:47am, making the event 3:50am.

The timings were all shunted for trial 2, and Jayaram’s previously precise timings are now irrelevant.
I did not twist any words.

That is plainly misinterpreting the testimony - he never stated he had a memory of the time nurse JW left the ward; only giving a period of time he waited in relation to her leaving, before going into nursery 1. If he agreed she left at 3.47am it was because he was told that was an established fact in court, effectively being misled with wrong data. He was being guided by incorrect door swipe data and a clinical record from six years earlier which did not say what time he went into the nursery and discovered the incident, it was a note of morphine being administered.
 
  • #1,830
I did not twist any words.

That is plainly misinterpreting the testimony - he never stated he had a memory of the time nurse JW left the ward; only giving a period of time he waited in relation to her leaving, before going into nursery 1. If he agreed she left at 3.47am it was because he was told that was an established fact in court, effectively being misled with wrong data. He was being guided by incorrect door swipe data and a clinical record from six years earlier which did not say what time he went into the nursery and discovered the incident, it was a note of morphine being administered.
His contemporaneous note was 3:50am. Not 3:40. Not 3:45. And he specifically said he was not guided by door data.
 
  • #1,831
I don't think Dr. J remembered the actual time because he looked at is watch, or in fact remembered it at all. That would be absurd. What he recalled was going into Nursery 1 a few minutes after the designated nurse left. The time originally quoted was based on incorrectly reported swipe card data. The corrected data actually makes a lot more sense.
It only makes sense if you completely disregard Joanne Williams’s testimony.
 
  • #1,832
  • #1,833
His contemporaneous note was 3:50am. Not 3:40. Not 3:45. And he specifically said he was not guided by door data.
Where does it say the note was written contemporaneously and not retrospectively?

The morphine was administered at 3.50am, while nurse JW was in the room, very obviously minutes after the situation had been first discovered and baby K had been resuscitated. Even the defence accepted that. This is just grasping at straws, and is a distraction from Dr Jayaram never saying he knew independently what time he went in there.

FACT: Joanne Williams swiped back into the unit at 3.47am AFTER these events.


Mr Myers refers to the events of 3.45-3.50am on February 17, 2016. Letby says she has no recollection of that event.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, June 24 - Letby gives evidence

He says it is known Child K suffered an oxygen desaturation between 3.45am-3.50am.
Lucy Letby retrial updates as ex-nurse accused of murder attempt
 
  • #1,834
The midwife's notes from 8 pm say nothing about a screaming baby with blood streaming from his mouth. If she had been told that she would have gone to the nursery and checked it out.
It's unlikely she'd have been told this even if it occurred. She wouldn't have gone to check it out either way.
 
  • #1,835
Baby E’s mum said she told the midwife about her concerns with Baby E when she was back on the ward and receiving medication. There is a contemporaneous note from the midwife about this (medications and Baby E’s deterioration), but that note was at 8pm.
RSBM

The midwife's note said "Care since 20.00hrs."

It wasn't written at 8pm.
 
  • #1,836
I don't understand. Which testimony?
Her recollections that when she returned to the unit the alarm was sounding and Jayaram asked her what had happened and how had the tube had moved. She had also noted blood stained secretions which Jayaram said he hadn’t seen.
 
  • #1,837
RSBM

The midwife's note said "Care since 20.00hrs."

It wasn't written at 8pm.
How do you know when it was written? If she was administering medications after 9pm, why would the note be so ambiguous as to suggest it was administered over an hour prior?
 
  • #1,838
Her recollections that when she returned to the unit the alarm was sounding and Jayaram asked her what had happened and how had the tube had moved. She had also noted blood stained secretions which Jayaram said he hadn’t seen.
But that makes perfect sense. The emergency was already underway when she came back. I don't see a problem.
 
  • #1,839
Sorry to be dim, but can someone please explain the references to a midwife & medication? Is that meds given to Baby E's mother?
 
  • #1,840
How do you know when it was written? If she was administering medications after 9pm, why would the note be so ambiguous as to suggest it was administered over an hour prior?
Because of the word "since", and the words "I had given her some medication", showing it was written later.

It doesn't suggest she gave her medication at 8pm.
 

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