UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[Baileyboo]

Apart from Dawn no one else who knew Lucy has spoken. Her parents may have had concerns not they would speak out against her. The media was prevented from posting articles about Letby before baby K's retrial and after that the tide had turned and the newspapers were only really interested in the MoJ angle.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years

Absolute travesty.

The beginning of the end.

 

[Marantz4250b]

A lot of the Truthers arguments are based on " cherry picking" parts of the trial and ignoring other parts. Like with baby C and Dr Evans. The truth of what actually happened in the trial is being lost.

Precisely!

The whole point of having the trial system we do is that the evidence is heard as a whole. The circumstances are considered as part of a collection of related events and facts in order that the court (in our case a jury) is able to deliver its decision as to whether the person charged with the offence actually did it.

Some of the evidence will more likely likely lean towards guilt than other parts, and vice-versa, but it's the whole of the evidence taken together that is determinative in deciding guilt.

This is what the Letby Truthers are failing to grasp.

As Kyle Hill says, it's "....intentionally weaponised ignorance". I like that phase more with each day that passes!

 

[joltz]

I'm exactly the same. Other than the whole murdering babies thing there doesn't seem to be a single thing about her that's remotely abnormal. Not in any sort of worrisome way, at any rate.

There doesn't seem to be a single person out there who has a bad word to say about her. Her backstory seems utterly normal and she clearly socialised well and had plenty of friends. When you look at the photos of her she's always around people and doesn't give off any sense of being withdrawn or wanting to stay out of the spotlight.

However, there are still criminal investigations going on so it might be the case that there is indeed stuff to come out about her that have been withheld for whatever reason.

I hear your point about bias in the investigation but there is literally no evidence of that ever happening - nor even that it could easily happen as the medical experts weren't told her name. They were simply given medical reports to assess. There would have been no legitimate investigative reason to tell them.

I'm going to chime in here and disagree. I do think there was things that went unreported in her private life. There was multiple families who were unhappy with her conduct and manners, families involved in the trial and others, which we know of from stories in the media. During the trial there was a lot of discussion on forums and social media. There was some claims made about her that can't really be corroborated but there was a particular one of note, whereby a mother said she was not surprised at all when Letby was arrested because she believed that Letby took enjoyment from doing continual heel pricks on her baby who was screaming. She said she felt this at the time, not afterwards. She said she thought Letby was sadistic. There was a lot of other claims made about unusual behaviour by people that claimed to have met or knew Letby. I can't say what is true and what isn't and the fact that the investigation into Letby is still ongoing may be preventing certain things coming out imo. There are 3 or 4 other stories that I wouldn't want to go into but I believed to be true.

JMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

You don’t just wake up on day and decide to murder new borns - there IS something in her childhood … there has to be.
It just hasn’t come out yet.

".......take me, I did it......"

You're right, this doesn't just manifest itself overnight. My guess is that she was harming babies (possibly not causing death) much earlier than June 2015.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Apart from Dawn no one else who knew Lucy has spoken. Her parents may have had concerns not they would speak out against her. The media was prevented from posting articles about Letby before baby K's retrial and after that the tide had turned and the newspapers were only really interested in the MoJ angle.

This is a very good point.

Whichever way you cut it, Lucy was popular, she wasn't some reclusive wallflower constantly hanging round at the back. In all of her photos she's always very prominent and noticeable among everyone else. She's always at the front or centre, usually dressed more strikingly than the others. One of the very first things I said on these discussions when I came to them after hearing of her being charged in 2020 was that lots of her photos were taken by other people who happily posted them publicly. She was popular.

Yet, despite that, we haven't heard from a single person (as far as I'm aware) who actually knew her, speaking in her defence or expressing an opinion that she's been wrongly convicted. No one has even spoken up as to what she was actually like as a person outside work other than Dawn.

Dawn, however, was her school friend from Hereford. Lucy moved away to Chester for Uni at age 19/20 or thereabouts and never went back. You'd need to question how well she actually knew her after this. People can change a lot in four or five years, especially at that age and with all the life changes that University brings with it. She also self-admittedly did not follow the trial.

None of her childhood friends have spoken about her; none of her nursing colleagues have spoken about her; no ex-boyfriends have spoken about her (that's just in there for completeness, there weren't any); no one from her salsa class has spoken about her; no one from any part of her life has ever spoken about her or have expressed any concerns that she may be innocent. For someone who was obviously popular and knew a lot of people, that silence speaks volumes, in my opinion.

I'm of the opinion that certain media outlets know more than they have said and are holding back until the police investigation and any subsequent prosecutions have been concluded. My thoughts are that lots of people who knew her have probably already spoken to the media.

 

[Parker Knoll]

There has to be surely M ?
She had a life before this but absolutely nothing.

 

[Marantz4250b]

She was a hugely prolific Facebook user. Most of the pics we've seen of her come from her FB or those of her friends. There will be media outlets out there who will have downloaded her entire FB history before it was switched off or deleted.

That information is worth a ton of money yet we've seen virtually none of it. There's a reason for that, imo!

 

[marynnu]

Whichever way you cut it, Lucy was popular, she wasn't some reclusive wallflower constantly hanging round at the back.

I totally agree. I suspect she was probably good company, as are so many people who do unspeakable things. This is what many people struggle with.

 

[Parker Knoll]

If she had been an ugly old woman this thread would have been tumble weed unless it was court watching discussion.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Hmm from what allot of people here say you would think she was extroverted, I never got that impression. I much more got the impression she was generally quieter, more private and had a tighter inner circle which was what Dawn said of her as well. Also fits with what families said if her, ie kinda cold and distant but we also see that she did warm to people after some time around them. That's a normal temperament within the range. Considering that these nurses would never be around the families for long I don't think she had much time to develop that bond with the majority. That description also fits with her doing so much overtime in an effort to get her own place. I would consider her a busy, single minded, fronted, mostly distant person. That description fits going all the way back to her teen years.

Most of this is also fitting with someone who knows how to be discreet.maybe someone who knows to not act impulsively and do something that's not acceptable at least not openly. Until an urge if present is uncontrollable. I'm not actually expecting anything too untoward from her past but yes it doesn't fit with where she is at.

 

[JosieJo]

Hmm from what allot of people here say you would think she was extroverted, I never got that impression. I much more got the impression she was generally quieter, more private and had a tighter inner circle which was what Dawn said of her as well. Also fits with what families said if her, ie kinda cold and distant but we also see that she did warm to people after some time around them. That's a normal temperament within the range. Considering that these nurses would never be around the families for long I don't think she had much time to develop that bond with the majority. That description also fits with her doing so much overtime in an effort to get her own place. I would consider her a busy, single minded, fronted, mostly distant person. That description fits going all the way back to her teen years.

Most of this is also fitting with someone who knows how to be discreet.maybe someone who knows to not act impulsively and do something that's not acceptable at least not openly. Until an urge if present is uncontrollable. I'm not actually expecting anything too untoward from her past but yes it doesn't fit with where she is at.

I totally agree ..she wasn't "popular" with many of her colleagues..she messaged a female Dr something along the lines of "her face doesn't fit" ....her friends were the "older" colleagues, a generation above her. Her photographs tended to be with older women. I got the impression the colleagues her own age (the younger crowd) were not so keen on her or close to her. I would love to know what they thought of her.
We know she felt smothered by her parents and you only have to look at their involvement in her Grievance and arrest to see this was not just "normal" fear and concern for your child.
I don't think she was popular or had a fantastic social life for someone her age

 

[Sweeper2000]

I totally agree ..she wasn't "popular" with many of her colleagues..she messaged a female Dr something along the lines of "her face doesn't fit" ....her friends were the "older" colleagues, a generation above her. Her photographs tended to be with older women. I got the impression the colleagues her own age (the younger crowd) were not so keen on her or close to her. I would love to know what they thought of her.
We know she felt smothered by her parents and you only have to look at their involvement in her Grievance and arrest to see this was not just "normal" fear and concern for your child.
I don't think she was popular or had a fantastic social life for someone her age

Tbh that last bit popular or social life i don't think was something she particularly valued which imo is fair enough. Having your priorities straight is a good thing. Yes on the older generation thing as well, I think she was stimulation averse which is also fitting for her preference of nightwork. Older people have more refined filters, manage stuff better and imo are generally less chaotic. . Yep her parents as well, she wants to manage stuff by herself without stressful interference. Imo she was actually quite an adult.

Here's an account of her from someone I think youngerbthan her.

She describes a quiet and private person at the start. If someone is like that you will struggle to get to knwo them as they just don't really give someone the opportunity.

 

[joltz]

I totally agree ..she wasn't "popular" with many of her colleagues..she messaged a female Dr something along the lines of "her face doesn't fit" ....her friends were the "older" colleagues, a generation above her. Her photographs tended to be with older women. I got the impression the colleagues her own age (the younger crowd) were not so keen on her or close to her. I would love to know what they thought of her.
We know she felt smothered by her parents and you only have to look at their involvement in her Grievance and arrest to see this was not just "normal" fear and concern for your child.
I don't think she was popular or had a fantastic social life for someone her age

There was loads of red flags about her. She definitely didn't get on with the younger colleagues and gravitated towards older ones. Part of me thinks this is because they would be less judgemental and easier to manipulate. I think the younger ones would have thought she was a bit weird and quiet. She seems to come from a very small, older family. Her besties seemed to be much older

 

[Sweeper2000]

There was loads of red flags about her. She definitely didn't get on with the younger colleagues and gravitated towards older ones. Part of me thinks this is because they would be less judgemental and easier to manipulate. I think the younger ones would have thought she was a bit weird and quiet. She seems to come from a very small, older family. Her besties seemed to be much older

Not one of those is a red flag to me. What's an adults preference ? youthful exuberance or maturities stability? Somewhat right though in the sense that the younger group would still be learning that difference is normal though, not something to be excluded necessarily.

 

[joltz]

Not one of those is a red flag to me. What's an adults preference ? youthful exuberance or maturities stability? Somewhat right though in the sense that the younger group would still be learning that difference is normal though, not something to be excluded necessarily.

Oh I agree, my post wasn't highlighting the red flags, just my thoughts on her gravitating towards older people. To me the red flags were things like failing her nursing competencies, followed by requesting a different assessor, imo giving false reasons for this. We know her original assessor said she was cold and lacking empathy, which is a red flag in itself but then Letby requested a different assessor. I think she knew she wouldn't be passed off by this lady, the assessor said so herself. She said Letby would not have been able to achieve what was needed in the time scale. So she requested a different assessor and said something along the lines of, they were clashing or not getting on, which I don't think was correct from what the original assessor stated. The different assessor then said she was really in two minds about whether to pass Letby or not and quite torn about it. I see evidence of a manipulative nature. It was also mentioned that she struggled to make any sort of connection with families. She was noted to often have a blank expressionless stare. Then there's things like the medical errors that she made which could have led to the death of a baby. In her notes on this she doesn't show any remorse or concern for the baby. Her main concern seemed to be to get back giving meds. Again she is noted to go above the people that disciplined her and is able to be put back on giving the meds, when she shouldn't have been. She made other serious errors also. Ofcourse there are many red flags of note from the trial but these ones only came to light during thirwall.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Oh I agree, my post wasn't highlighting the red flags, just my thoughts on her gravitating towards older people. To me the red flags were things like failing her nursing competencies, followed by requesting a different assessor, imo giving false reasons for this. We know her original assessor said she was cold and lacking empathy, which is a red flag in itself but then Letby requested a different assessor. I think she knew she wouldn't be passed off by this lady, the assessor said so herself. She said Letby would not have been able to achieve what was needed in the time scale. So she requested a different assessor and said something along the lines of, they were clashing or not getting on, which I don't think was correct from what the original assessor stated. The different assessor then said she was really in two minds about whether to pass Letby or not and quite torn about it. I see evidence of a manipulative nature. It was also mentioned that she struggled to make any sort of connection with families. She was noted to often have a blank expressionless stare. Then there's things like the medical errors that she made which could have led to the death of a baby. In her notes on this she doesn't show any remorse or concern for the baby. Her main concern seemed to be to get back giving meds. Again she is noted to go above the people that disciplined her and is able to be put back on giving the meds, when she shouldn't have been. She made other serious errors also. Ofcourse there are many red flags of note from the trial but these ones only came to light during thirwall.

JMO

Yeh that's all pretty bang on. Interestingly in line with and brings me on to my recent thinking.

What if she just didn't like the way the unit was being run? Wanted to change stuff and didn't have the authority or influence to change it?

Not sure if anyone has said that before, I know the prosecution was saying it at the first trial in reference to her datix forms in the reactionary sense but what about that as a motivating factor in the murders and attacks themselves. Info of that nature was presented by the defence maybe at the suggestion of letby herself?

Eta. I'm not quite sure that's a fitting motive as if she harmed babies at lwh then it goes way back. Although maybe as lwh shows willingness to hurt whereas maybe coch was willingness plus reason.

 

[joltz]

Yeh that's all pretty bang on. Interestingly in line with and brings me on to my recent thinking.

What if she just didn't like the way the unit was being run? Wanted to change stuff and didn't have the authority or influence to change it?

Not sure if anyone has said that before, I know the prosecution was saying it at the first trial in reference to her datix forms in the reactionary sense but what about that as a motivating factor in the murders and attacks themselves. Info of that nature was presented by the defence maybe at the suggestion of letby herself?

Eta. I'm not quite sure that's a fitting motive as if she harmed babies at lwh then it goes way back. Although maybe as lwh shows willingness to hurt whereas maybe coch was willingness plus reason.

Personally I think she thought nursing was going to be a lot more exciting than the reality which is often just feeding and observations. We know she found this boring. She enjoyed the thrill of the emergency scenarios. She was already cold and lacking empathy, so creating the drama, which would involve harming the babies didn't deter her. I don't think murder was necessarily her intention in most instances but she really didn't care if the babies died. They couldn't speak out so she probably thought she wouldn't be caught. She escalated, she changed MO to avoid detection. She also got a kick from being front and centre of the parents grief. She orchestrated these scenarios, enjoyed them and made herself look a hero during them. Pretty much classic saviour complex but also elements of sadism, as she enjoys seeing the pain of the parents up close and personal.
I really don't understand how anyone could actually watch the trial unfold, take in all of the evidence and not conclude that she was anything other than thoroughly guilty.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

Not one of those is a red flag to me. What's an adults preference ? youthful exuberance or maturities stability? Somewhat right though in the sense that the younger group would still be learning that difference is normal though, not something to be excluded necessarily.

Do you remember some of those texts/DMs she sent to her co-workers?

There were many examples of her being two-faced and manipulative. Being misleading with others and stirring the pot at work.

Sending a sick co-worker a 'nice' message, 'hoping she feels better soon'...and then immediately texting another coworker to say that 'sick co-worker is 'faking illness because she is lazy' etc.

She also texted superiors and threw co-workers under the bus. But then actied all 'buddy buddy' with said coworkers.

And MOST important was the way she tried to create the narrative about certain babies who had collapsed. She'd plant ideas and false facts into the heads of co-workers. Also she'd milk them for information about what others were thinking or saw or remembered about the incidents. You could see the manipulation as it was playing out.

I remember one sequence of conversations with co-workers and one superior------they were reaching out to Lucy after the first few sudden deaths. They were trying to console her and sympathise, because those babies had died under her care. Her co-workers said she could take a break from the most serious cases and work with the most stable babies and get an emotional rest from it all. It was a kind reaction, imo.

Letby seemed annoyed by the suggestion and strongly rejected the idea. NO< I NEED to stay with the critical care babies so I can get back on the horse and ride. And Lucy immediately replied to her superior to ask and be assured that she could stay in the critical care nursery. And f course she did, and the collapses continued.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Do you remember some of those texts/DMs she sent to her co-workers?

There were many examples of her being two-faced and manipulative. Being misleading with others and stirring the pot at work.

Sending a sick co-worker a 'nice' message, 'hoping she feels better soon'...and then immediately texting another coworker to say that 'sick co-worker is 'faking illness because she is lazy' etc.

She also texted superiors and threw co-workers under the bus. But then actied all 'buddy buddy' with said coworkers.

And MOST important was the way she tried to create the narrative about certain babies who had collapsed. She'd plant ideas and false facts into the heads of co-workers. Also she'd milk them for information about what others were thinking or saw or remembered about the incidents. You could see the manipulation as it was playing out.

I remember one sequence of conversations with co-workers and one superior------they were reaching out to her after the first few sudden deaths. They were trying to console her and sympathise, because those babies had died under her care. Her co-workers said she could take a break from the most serious cases and work with the most stable babies and get an emotional rest from it all.

Letby seemed annoyed by the suggestion and strongly rejected the idea. NO< I NEED to stay with the critical care babies so I can get back on the horse and ride. And Lucy immediately replied to her superior to ask and be assured that she could stay in the critical care nursery. And f course she did, and the collapses continued.

I certainly do and certainly wasn't saying she was red flag free. More than enough to draw inferences from.