GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #13

[Orange Tabby]

From the UK and Eire Database account of the yesterday’s proceedings:

After agreeing to help move Matthews' things, Ireland and Karl Demetrius headed back to work to pick up a van.

The trio dropped Matthews off on Gloucester Road - so they could enter work - before collecting the vehicle and picking him back up.​

What does it mean, “The trio dropped Matthews off on Gloucester Road”? Where is Gloucester Road? I understand that Matthews can't show up where Ireland and Demetrius work but why was Matthews dropped off there and not left at Shauna Hoare’s house in Cotton Mill Lane to gather everything that needed transporting?

Was Matthews hoping that the later all the activity at the Cotton Mill Lane house took place, the less likely there would be anyone to see or hear it?

Was Matthews hoping that if he stayed out of the house until the men returned with the van that this would minimize Hoare’s perceived connection to the crimes were they later caught?

Is this further deception along the lines of "bloke chucked out by missus" (Matthews tells Ireland -- knowing Demetrius would understand the deception -- She told me to "come back only when you've got muscle to move your things") to misdirect Ireland? I don't rule out this theory with respect to Ireland, but Ireland's subsequent mention of 5,000 quid suggests clearly to me that the ruse, if employed at all, did not work for long.

And, further to my being puzzled over Ireland saying he suggested the Demetrius house as a place to stash Matthews's things:

Is Gloucester Road near Cotton Mill Lane? The further Gloucester Road is from Cotton Mill Lane, the longer Matthews would have been in the car with Demetrius and Ireland. The longer he is in the car, later van, with them, the stranger it is that they wait until the van is loaded to decide where to take all the stuff (according to Ireland’s testimony yesterday), and thus the stranger it is that James Ireland claims to be the one to suggest they transport it to the Demetrius house in Barton Court.

 

[mrazda71]

Would that explain why he took Becky's body home with him and why he kept it for so many days? He only removed it from his house when he knew the police were coming round to search. Had that not happened, who knows how long he would have kept her there?

As for the 'tame' trial, I agree.

What I find interesting is that the majority of WS posters think SH was involved either in the aftermath or even in the murder itself. Only a couple think she could be innocent.

On the FB page for UK & Eire database, as far as I can tell, every poster thinks SH is involved.

And, for me the most telling, on the FB accounts of members of Becky's family, everyone thinks SH is involved - family and all the friends commenting. They obviously know SH, and know the relationship of NM and SH, so they have actual experience to base their opinions on.

So, surely the jury - made up of ordinary members of the public - won't be totally, 100%, removed from the opinions of everyone else. If we can see the contradictions, surely they can too. If we can think SH's explanations are unbelievable, surely they can too. If we can disbelieve NM's account of events, surely they will too.

Its interesting that every comment made on this page, is being made at the same time on the UK & EIRE page.

So despite the trial being tame and despite us thinking that the most important questions are not being asked, and the contradictions not being pointed out, people are still all forming the same opinion - that SH had to be involved. So, maybe the prosecution think that they don't need to do much, as the story being told is enough for anyone to believe SH is lying, and therefore guilty of something.

I'm not convinced either way with Shauna and don't think I could be unless I was actually on the jury as I just know we're only hearing a fraction of what's going on in court ...

Even though I agree that the family may know Shauna and Nathan better than anyone, I do hold in my mind that many of those family had either never or rarely even met Becky* so it's unlikely they knew Nathan and Shauna 'well' ... *I'm not just going on what retribution said but I've seen it said by the family members themselves.

Also, family are far too close to give a true judgement.

As for the UK and Eire commenters - I don't hold their opinions in very high regard, the vast majority are tabloid readers and more importantly tabloid believers who only have one thought- 'hang the scum' ... Similarly, on the Bristol Post Facebook - very few people have had the 'balls' to even question or go against the tide of blind hatred and venom that's outpouring and when they have they themselves have been jumped on and verbally abused ...

I am more than happy to go along with what the jury decides in all of charges against all of the defendants - they will have seen and heard all, the good the bad and ugly and they will of course be directed by the judge.

 

[Ironside]

Gloucester Road is a long road but Airbus is just off it in Filton so it must have been outside their work.

 

[Gigi-G]

I was to ask what does it mean and now it was bang on as you both posted it. What´s to mark ones spot here? Ohhh, so many things still to learn...

I just take it as it means 'to take yr spot'.... to take ones seat... ☺

 

[Orange Tabby]

If we hadn't heard from other witnesses early on in the trial then I would be inclined to agree with you BUT we've heard from a work mate that Karl AND Ireland were discussing it at work and both then gave him the cold shoulder ... we then heard from 2 separate friends of Mr Ireland, one talking of the good looking woman shouting and telling someone to get out which hasn't been said in court by Ireland yesterday and then a different friend telling us that Ireland told him he was getting a big pay out from helping in a dodgy deal ... We've been told by one of his friends that Ireland is prone to story telling and I think yesterday he was telling his biggest story ever with a dose of 'mean prisoner governor won't let me have my meds' thrown in for sympathy!

I agree with everything you say. But why does Ireland say it was his idea to take the packages to Barton Court?

1. As much as we know anything in this case, we know this is not true.

2. This lie by Ireland cannot possibly help him.

So why do you think he says it? That is what has me flummoxed.

 

[Clio]

Re the comment by JI - suggesting to take the packages to KDs home - outlined so well by Orange Tabby above.

This makes no sense to me. Surely, as has been said, during the telecons between NM and KD earlier that evening, they must have discussed where to take the packages. And this is further confirmed by JPs text to KD, saying are we going to store it for him, which is before the pick up from CML.

If it were not so tragic, it would be like a kind of bumbling comedy. Three men with stolen goods, who suddenly realise they have nowhere to stash them - then one of them ( the least involved ) comes up with a clever plan to go round the corner to the other one's house. I dont buy it for one minute.

Morning,

BIB You'd have thought so but then why not take the Van from Filton in the first place? JI drove his car to Southmead with KD to pick up NM/SH. According to NM (cough), it was when they got to CML that he said the car wasn't big enough and they'd need a van.

I have been looking at the timings. It does seems to fit that the text messages from JP to KD about "are you going to hide it" were made to KD whilst he was in the car with JI/NM on the way to Filton to pick up the van after dropping SH off at CML. If KD had arranged with NM to store the items at his place, during the 6 phone calls earlier in the evening, wouldn't JP have know about it sooner?

8:30pm JI Arrives at work at Filton
12:30am JI/KD leave Filton in JI's car and head to Southmead to pick up NM/SH (10 minute journey?)
~12:40am JI/KD arrive at Southmead (let's assume they pick up NM/SH in the car and depart immediately)
~12:40am JI/KD/NM/SH leave Southmead in JI's car and head for CML (20 minute journey?)
~1:00am JI/KD/NM/SH arrive in the car at CML, drop off SH and head back to Filton (Again let's assume they leave immediately)
~1:00am JI/KD/NM leave CML in the car and head for Filton (25 minute journey?)
1.10am KD got a message from JP saying: "Ah ok you going to hide it for him? We could do with the money. lol. xxxx."
1.18am JP sent another which said: "Cool, that's a deposit on the house. lol."
~1:25am JI/KD/NM arrive at Filton in JI's car and drop NM in Gloucester Road whilst they fetch the van.(5 minutes to swap car for van?)
~1:30am JI/KD/NM Leave Filton and head back to CML in a Van (25 minute journey?)
~1:55am JI/KD/NM arrive at CML in the van ready to start loading up
2.19am - CCTV shows a van moving between Cotton Mill Lane and Barton Court, with light coming on by the garden shed.
2.31am - The white van is seen heading back towards JI and KD’s work in Filton

The times in bold are confirmed timings, the ~ timings are my guesses.

 

[Orange Tabby]

Gloucester Road is a long road but Airbus is just off it in Filton so it must have been outside their work.

Many thanks, Ironside.

So Matthews has a ride with the pair of them nearly all the way to their place of work. Gets out, waits a bit, and is collected by them again. They drive all the way back to Cotton Mill Lane together. And in all this time, knowing that the whole point of the exercise is to shift some of his stuff from the house in Cotton Mill Lane, as James Ireland tells it, Matthews, Demetirus, and himself never think to talk about where it will be shifted until it's all been hauled out of the house and packed up in the Airbus van.

And then Ireland has a brain wave to save the day.

Why does Ireland testify to this? It is false and it in no way benefits him. Is it because he is the most stupid liar of the lot? I guess someone has to be.

 

[jessie]

Good morning - @ OrangeTabby and @Clio:

I don't want to copy both posts and also don't want to be pedantic, but did JP say "Are you going to store it for him" or
"Are you going to hide it for him".

One word can make a tremendous difference to the intention and knowledge and I wonder which is correct ? TYIA

 

[Clio]

Good morning - @ OrangeTabby and @Clio:

I don't want to copy both posts and also don't want to be pedantic, but did JP say "Are you going to store it for him" or
"Are you going to hide it for him".

One word can make a tremendous difference to the intention and knowledge and I wonder which is correct ? TYIA

Morning.

Mr Mousley told the jury that at 1.10am on February 24, Karl got a message from Parsons saying: "Ah ok you going to hide it for him? We could do with the money. lol. xxxx."

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-27945859-detail/story.html#ixzz3qWCOdUrQ

 

[Alyce]

Great post Clio with all those timings.

So, perhaps NM did just ask for a lift from Southmead to CML to begin with and KD decided to oblige ( seems that things are fairly quiet at Airbus, so would pass an hour or so for them ! )
Then, at CML, NM then asks KD if he can move some stuff. We have the part, from JIs testimony yesterday, that he was sitting outside in the car, waiting for KD to come out of the house so they could go back to work ( I use that word very loosely ! ) when KD then came out and told him the story about NM being thrown out, needing to move stuff and them deciding to get a van to do the job.

Otherwise, as you say, if KD knew from the first phone call that they were going to be moving stuff, why not just take the van straight away.
Ah, unless the van would not be suitable with having to transport NM, SH, and child ?

There is a note somewhere, that says NM was in the back of the van when they returned from Filton to CML. so presumably a 2 seater van which would have meant NM and KD having to sit on floor in back of van ? allowing SH to sit in front with child. Might not have been suitable ?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Trial has resumed. I can do tweets if no one can at this moment?

 

[Orange Tabby]

How believable is it that the internet search on James Ireland’s phone for a Disneyland Paris trip was made by Karl Demetrius? We know Karl has a phone, that’s how he conducted six phone conversations with Matthews while he was at work the night a van was later used to remove the dismembered body from Cotton Mill Lane. And wasn’t it on his own phone that Karl conducted text exchanges with Jaydene Parsons about the storage and about the money involved?

Do many people in Britain have a cell phone which can only make calls and send and receive texts but which doesn’t have internet access? I’m an American, and the only people I know who have and use such phones are much older folk who don’t want to deal with phone internet. (My Dad, for one.) I suppose there must be some people who use such phones because they are cheaper, but I’ve never met anyone under 40 with this type of cell phone.

Wouldn’t Karl Demetrius have been able to conduct such a search on his own phone?

I suppose it’s possible that Ireland at the time had a newer and better phone than Demetrius, so that his friend might have preferred using the Ireland phone. Faster internet connection? Bigger screen?

Also, I wonder if during the cross-examination of Ireland today the prosecution will ask Ireland where he was when all those six phone conversations between Matthews and Karl Demetrius took place. We know he wasn’t working up a sweat for his employer.

 

[Clio]

Trial has resumed. I can do tweets if no one can at this moment?

That'd be great. Thanks

 

[PrimeSuspect]

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial 15m15 minutes ago

Court has resumed for day 20 of evidence - James Ireland is back in the witness box #beckywatts

JI says NM+KD came downstairs just the once, they were carrying suitcases. He says the blue box came from downstairs somewhere

He tells the court alongside three suitcases, they were carrying a black bin liner.

JI tells the court: "The items were quite light, the box had a bit of weight to it that was about it."

He adds: "It took two people but it was mainly because of the awkwardness of the box.

JI says they had to make two trips “tops” to transfer all the items from the van to the kitchen of 9 Barton Court

 

[PrimeSuspect]

The Breeze SouthWest ‏@breezesouthwest 2m2 minutes ago

#BeckyWatts trial: Did you realise you were up to no good? JI says no.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

christine megson ‏@meganewswest 4m4 minutes ago Bristol, England

Ireland can't recall anyone being on the sofa whilst moving bags

christine megson ‏@meganewswest 2m2 minutes ago Bristol, England

"I was just helping a mate move his belongings"


ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial 2m2 minutes ago

JI says he was following the news of Becky’s disappearance “like most people in Bristol”

 

[PrimeSuspect]

The Breeze SouthWest ‏@breezesouthwest 2m2 minutes ago

#BeckyWatts trial: JI is asked if he was following the news about Becky's disappearance. 'Yes, like most people in Bristol'

 

[ColourPurple]

Would that explain why he took Becky's body home with him and why he kept it for so many days? He only removed it from his house when he knew the police were coming round to search. Had that not happened, who knows how long he would have kept her there?

As for the 'tame' trial, I agree.

What I find interesting is that the majority of WS posters think SH was involved either in the aftermath or even in the murder itself. Only a couple think she could be innocent.

On the FB page for UK & Eire database, as far as I can tell, every poster thinks SH is involved.

And, for me the most telling, on the FB accounts of members of Becky's family, everyone thinks SH is involved - family and all the friends commenting. They obviously know SH, and know the relationship of NM and SH, so they have actual experience to base their opinions on.

So, surely the jury - made up of ordinary members of the public - won't be totally, 100%, removed from the opinions of everyone else. If we can see the contradictions, surely they can too. If we can think SH's explanations are unbelievable, surely they can too. If we can disbelieve NM's account of events, surely they will too.

Its interesting that every comment made on this page, is being made at the same time on the UK & EIRE page.

So despite the trial being tame and despite us thinking that the most important questions are not being asked, and the contradictions not being pointed out, people are still all forming the same opinion - that SH had to be involved. So, maybe the prosecution think that they don't need to do much, as the story being told is enough for anyone to believe SH is lying, and therefore guilty of something.

I've felt the same concern that there might not be enough to secure a conviction in other cases though , and those cases have then ended up with convictions... so no matter how "possible" or as SH said "completely plausible"the alternative they put forward comes across it'll come down to whether the jury believes them or not.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial 31s31 seconds ago

JI says he sent a Snap Chat to Jaydene Parsons saying "seeing statuses on Facebook, saying she’s been found”

 

[ColourPurple]

I agree with everything you say. But why does Ireland say it was his idea to take the packages to Barton Court?

1. As much as we know anything in this case, we know this is not true.

2. This lie by Ireland cannot possibly help him.

So why do you think he says it? That is what has me flummoxed.

Depends if they (NM and KD)are acting out that this isn't all arranged and that NM has just been chucked out for JI's benefit. THey know where they've agreed where to put the stuff but let JI think he's come up with the idea.

I had heard the story of him being chucked about before from Jaydene's sister on Uk & Eire page so I think it may well be that that line was spun to JI and JP, though KD might have known that it was something dodgier. He may have sanitised the story a bit to get JI and JP to agree with moving and storing.

ETA alternatively it couldve been the story they agreed to use if they were caught ( thinking it was stolen goods , pretending they thought he'd been thrown out by his GF)