GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #8

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  • #881
Haven't commented on this case before , but I've been following it since Becky went missing (I'm from England, although not the Bristol area). It's funny because I read Websleuths pretty much daily but usually don't post because I have so many things going around my head and don't know how to articulate them!

Anyway, not sure how to word this but I find it interesting how much of the discussion (in general, not here) around this case focuses on SH and her guilt/innocence. It reminds me of that poem Carol Duffy wrote about Myra Hindley, it says something about how Ian Brady was the Devil but she was the 'Devil's wife' who stuck by him and therefore by society's standards that automatically made her worse. I dunno, I think it's somewhat easy to underestimate the immense power that one person can hold over another, especially when it comes to the power dynamics that already inherently exist in a relationship between a woman and a man. Not saying that this makes SH innocent, of course, but I personally would be really surprised if it turned out that SH was the manipulator in this situation, because what we know of their relationship just doesn't seem to support that theory (in my opinion, anyway). SH met NM when she was 14 and he was 21 - I mean, even if you are an extremely mature 14 yr old you are still effectively a child, even if your behaviours don't always seem to represent that.

I think also, manipulation and 'puppeteering' (for want of a better word!) in relationships isn't always obvious, or violent (althought obviously NM was allegedly violent to SH at times), especially at the beginning, and seven years is such a long time to be with someone and for that person to subtly groom you and manipulate you. And the person doesn't even have to be intelligent in order to do this, they just have to be manipulative and sure of what they want. Even 21, I dunno, to me it still seems so young, and the seven years between 14 and 21 are really important in terms of development etc. I think it's entirely possible than NM manipulated and 'groomed' Shauna in ways that he might even have been unaware of, because they were so inherently inbuilt into his personality, in those years. She said in the interviews that she had no longer had any friends and family, that Nathan was all she had and without him she would have nothing.

Personally, I am leaning towards thinking I that their relationship was all-encompassing and he controlled it, and all she had was him and her child. Yes, she seemed to have friends, but I think there's a difference between having casual friends/acquantainces and people you can actually trust and rely on who become like a family to you - I think in this regard, she only had Nathan. I also think it's possible that she did know that what was going on, re: the bathroom and the bleach etc, and had come to some conclusions, but was so terrified of the implications of finding out that the only person she really has in her life and has spent seven years in an intense, all-encompassing relationship with is not the person she thought he was, that she fooled herself. It's really incredible how much someone can delude/fool themselves when what could potentially be lost is so important.

Despite all of that ^ haha, I'm still not sure what I actually think of this case - does anyone else feel the same?! I just find it really interesting that a lot of discussions/media outlets/etc seem to be approaching it from the POV that SH is guilty until proven innocent, rather than the other way around.


I think she's getting more discussion because she's pleaded not guilty to everything and her being completely oblivious to everything seems hard to believe, bearing in mind at the very least that she was there when it happened.
 
  • #882
Hi KatieLH and Welcome ...

From me, an especially big welcome as until reading your post I've felt like I am the only person who is even considering the prospect that Shauna is innocent until PROVEN guilty and for me, I haven't had definitive proof that she's guilty of anything yet.

That's not to say that I think conclusively that she's completely innocent and if in the coming weeks we hear of evidence from court that proves beyond reasonable doubt that Shauna was involved then, my opinion will change ...
We are only hearing the edited sound bites of days worth of interviews, snippets of quotes from the courtroom and not the full picture.

Like you, my curiosity is in the intricacies of their relationship ...

I completely agree, 14, however mature IS a child and there's NO way any of my 3 daughters at 14 would've been allowed to begin a relationship with a 21 year old!! But of course, from what we do know, I don't think Shauna had a great upbringing ... 14! *I'm shaking my head at this*
Agreeing with you again - 21 is still SO young! and such formative years in-between where the not only are you developing physically but your brain too ... I'm just going to stop now and say I agree with everything you've said :)


From a legal viewpoint everybody is presumed innocent until proven guilty. But that doesn't mean we can't also have a personal opinion as well as a legal opinion. I can separate the two; going into the trial it seemed unlikely she could be completely oblivious to everything that happened... having heard the evidence so far I feel it's more likely she was involved than wasn't but I'm not sure there's enough legally to convict her. My opinion could change based on the rest of the evidence but I'll still be able to look at it from two angles.. what I personally believe and what I think can be legally proven.
 
  • #883
From a legal viewpoint everybody is presumed innocent until proven guilty. But that doesn't mean we can't also have a personal opinion as well as a legal opinion. I can separate the two; going into the trial it seemed unlikely she could be completely oblivious to everything that happened... having heard the evidence so far I feel it's more likely she was involved than wasn't but I'm not sure there's enough legally to convict her. My opinion could change based on the rest of the evidence but I'll still be able to look at it from two angles.. what I personally believe and what I think can be legally proven.

Another thing to remember is that it needs to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Not beyond any doubt.
 
  • #884
I didn't think you were being difficult :-)

Just engaging in healthy debate.

What makes me convinced that SH is up to her neck in this?

1. The CPS adding the murder charge to the list of crimes SH is accused of. They already had a very strong case against NM, they didn't need to charge her. They chose to add that charge at a later date. Therefore they believe they have enough to back up that charge.

I was once told by a barrister that sometimes the prosecution add additional charges on at a later date in the hope of getting a guilty plea for one of the lesser charges, thus meaning they won't necesarily need to take it to trial and also because once there is one guilty plea, often others start to plead guilty to.

I'm not sure how this works with the CPS' roll as I thought that any charge that goes to the CPS, they will want enough evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction in order for them to approve it. Of course, I guess the prosecution can present a case to the CPS but there can be a lot of information that is left out which will form a defence.

Back when the charges got added on, I did wonder if this was the what had happened for SH.

Another interesting point I learnt (just for info.) is that for each charge there must be seperate evidence. So the prosecution can't try their luck and stick on two different charges with the same evidence as they think it meets both. They must pick which charge they want. I saw one person in court on two seperate charges but both with the fame evidence. The judge was unimpressed with the prosecution at that and made them pick one. What I don't understand is how that got through the CPS in the first place. I'd hope they would look more closely and not waste court time like that.
 
  • #885
I had a vague recollection of dogs at Crown Hill (Becky's/DG's/AG's home) I remember the discussion about what type of dog they were, I don't think we found out. I went and looked at The Case Map, I had added several images and links. I found this A lot of photos at link, including number 53 which shows a handler and dog at Crown Hill. Is it a cadaver dog?


I read one of the earlier newspaper articles yesterday ( will put the link up later when I have more time ) and it talked about Sniffer Dogs.

I know the words sniffer dogs can sometimes be used by journos when it is Cadaver dogs that are being used but if we take the article as being strictly accurate, then it would seem only sniffer dogs were used.
 
  • #886
I read one of the earlier newspaper articles yesterday ( will put the link up later when I have more time ) and it talked about Sniffer Dogs.

I know the words sniffer dogs can sometimes be used by journos when it is Cadaver dogs that are being used but if we take the article as being strictly accurate, then it would seem only sniffer dogs were used.

The reporter probably didn't know, but I think the article could still be accurate without being specific. Wouldn't the term "sniffer dogs" embrace all dogs that are trained to detect by smell? Whether it's drugs, explosives, blood or corpses, they all search by sniffing.
 
  • #887
Thanks Skibaboo.. on routing through pics of Avon & Somerset unit. It seems quite possibly the dog with the Forensics team could be a Cadaver Dog.
On hand in the search. But not knowing the ins and outs of dare I say it. Odours emitting from corpses. If it be a new death. Maybe they didn't pick anything solid up. I dunno. So many twists and turns in this case.
 
  • #888
They seem to have established that Becky died in her bedroom. Could they have reached that conclusion as a result of cadaver dog behaviour?
 
  • #889
I mentioned this frozen parody way back before it was revealed in court but no one responded to my post... Just sayin'

SH's friend has confirmed that she and SH both watched/listened to the frozen parody a year or so before, so although I don't think anybody thinks she was neccessarily trying to pick tips up from watching it again the night Becky had been killed, it does leave open the question of whether she was rewatching it or showing NM it in order to make light of the situation they were in that night. Laughing about it. Seems a bit of a coincidence that she'd search on youtube for a parody song about hiding a body on the very day that they're suspected of finding themselves with a body to hide.
 
  • #890
They seem to have established that Becky died in her bedroom. Could they have reached that conclusion as a result of cadaver dog behaviour?


Not sure she'd have been dead long enough for a scent to be picked up there if he she was immediately bundled into the boot.
 
  • #891
Will KD and/or JI have to give evidence?

I'd like to know more about this supposed argument and whether SH really was telling NM to get out. It might give us a better idea of where her mind was at. I just get the impression that she seems smarter and more switched on than him.

I'm hoping they do give evidence or if not, that the police have asked SH about her being there. in NM's confession he admits he took the packages to a shed with two men, who he doesn't want to name, but he doesn't mention where SH was at all. JI and KD did it whilst working a night shift so I can't see her being anywhere else other than at home. I guess she could use the deep sleeper excuse again but JI had no reason to lie about a woman being there.

Don't know if KD can give evidence as a witness since he is a defendant himself, albeit he has pleaded guilty to his own charge. I doubt if JI will be called as a witness, possibly due to his autism. Also if we were going to hear from him, wouldn't that have happened at the same time as we heard from his mates? Though who knows with the order in which the prosecution are presenting their evidence!

Anyway, here's what SH had to say.

Hoare claimed that during the evening of the February 23 - when Matthews allegedly arranged for Becky's remains to be moved - she had fallen asleep.

She said that the couple had been at her mother's home in Southmead and had been given a lift home by a friend of Matthews.

"Nathan stayed in the car chatting. I fell asleep," she said. "I don't know what time he came back in the house.

"In the morning I woke up and here was there".
.
http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...tory-28035571-detail/story.html#ixzz3pQKVryMu

As an aside, I thought NM/SH drove to Southmead in the Zafira on 23rd Feb so presumably the car was left there overnight. They went back to Southmead on the 24th arriving late morning and leaving around midnight. Wonder how they got there.....
 
  • #892
1. Cadaver dogs are known as valuable forensic tools in crime scene investigations. Scientific research attempting to verify their value is largely lacking, specifically for scents associated with the early postmortem interval. The aim of our investigation was the comparative evaluation of the reliability, accuracy, and specificity of three cadaver dogs belonging to the Hamburg State Police in the detection of scents during the early postmortem interval.
Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (bodies are all less than 3 hours old). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination).
The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), and having a positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100) as well as accuracy (92-100).
Reference:
Cadaver dogs–a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares.
Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N, Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A.
Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany.
 
  • #893
Ahh ty Tortoise.
Also something else that bothers me. I'm struggling to grasp whether the crime was pre-meditated. Or just bungled as they went along. As in the preparation of it.
We know NM took the kidnap kit with them in the car. Which would perceive as pre-meditated. Using the tin returning as a way of gaining access to his mother's house.
Whether SH was aware. I am sure she was. But she had a child to keep occupied.
Now here's where I'm lost... Okay a bungled kidnap. Mishap and turns into the death of BW. Now so far NM keeps with his plan of putting BW into the bag with duvet etc.
This now becomes the game changer. Did NM panic now BW was dead. And they had to revise the scheme of things.
But surely it's easier to given the area around Bristol. River Severn being tidal. Even just dispose of the body simply. What drives a person to the point they consider to add post mortem injuries and removal of said tampon. To finally cutting up of a human body.... his step sister of all things. What kind of mind/person would be driven to all that extra work? . Sorry if it's a bit graphical. I just don't get the point of dismemberment to just hiding a body as per a whole body.. 

BMB- Just wanted to say, I fell into this same trap of saying that "we know X, Y,Z happened " when I was talking about knowing that the car reversed onto the drive but then when I thought about it I realised that we don't actually know for sure because the source of this information is the accused. So we know that NM says he went prepared with a kidnap kit in the boot but we don't actually know if that's true. It could just be part of a back story created afterwards to back up his story that he was "only" planning to kidnap her. Same with the car being reversed on to the drive to "wash the car". NM and SH say it was reversed onto the drive as soon as they got there, but it could have been done after Becky died for all we know.
 
  • #894
  • #895
Hoare claimed that during the evening of February 23 – when Matthews allegedly arranged for Becky's remains to be moved – she had fallen asleep.

She said the couple had been at her mother's home in Southmead and had been given a lift home by a friend of Matthews.

"Nathan stayed in the car chatting. I fell asleep," she said. "I don't know what time he came back in the house.

"In the morning I woke up and he was there."



Read more: http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...tory-28035571-detail/story.html#ixzz3pUaoxqtl




Thanks for reposting that bit Clio.

Her answers are difficult to believe imo. SH saying NM stayed in the car chatting until she fell asleep seems odd in itself, but what about their child?
Are we being asked to believe that the child fell asleep instantly also, and wasn't in the least disturbed by the noise of 3 blokes in and out of the house while loading the car? Apparently coming in for a cigarette after as well.
If the child was disturbed and woke, then SH would have been woken too I would have thought.
I do find her story telling doesn't ring true so much (or all) of the time, and keeps bringing doubt in my mind.
I understand that just because I think she is probably guilty that is nowhere enough to find her guilty though.
 
  • #896
Anyway, here's what SH had to say.

Hoare claimed that during the evening of the February 23 - when Matthews allegedly arranged for Becky's remains to be moved - she had fallen asleep.

She said that the couple had been at her mother's home in Southmead and had been given a lift home by a friend of Matthews.

"Nathan stayed in the car chatting. I fell asleep," she said. "I don't know what time he came back in the house.

"In the morning I woke up and here was there".

.
http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...tory-28035571-detail/story.html#ixzz3pQKVryMu

As an aside, I thought NM/SH drove to Southmead in the Zafira on 23rd Feb so presumably the car was left there overnight. They went back to Southmead on the 24th arriving late morning and leaving around midnight. Wonder how they got there.....

So SH,NM and their child were taken home in JI?s van? Although SH refers to them staying in the "car". So did KD pick them up in his car then JI arrived in the van? Can't see why they'd be picked up from Sh's parents rather than drive unless NM had drank too much, but then why not stay over at SH's parents again. They could have still got there in the morning to meet police.

Im trying to look at this from the view point of SH not being involved and that means NM has to come up with a reason why they had to go back and why his friend picks them up. The time NM and JI or KD are talking in the car/van has to be more than a couple of minutes as SH falls asleep and then doesn't notice NM coming into the house with JI (although JI appears to have told a friend she was there shouting) and moving a load of suitcases... and then them both going back out, shutting the door and NM going off in the van with JI to take them to the shed before returning again.
 
  • #897
Hoare claimed that during the evening of February 23 – when Matthews allegedly arranged for Becky's remains to be moved – she had fallen asleep.

She said the couple had been at her mother's home in Southmead and had been given a lift home by a friend of Matthews.

"Nathan stayed in the car chatting. I fell asleep," she said. "I don't know what time he came back in the house.

"In the morning I woke up and he was there."



Read more: http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...tory-28035571-detail/story.html#ixzz3pUaoxqtl




Thanks for reposting that bit Clio.

Her answers are difficult to believe imo. SH saying NM stayed in the car chatting until she fell asleep seems odd in itself, but what about their child?
Are we being asked to believe that the child fell asleep instantly also, and wasn't in the least disturbed by the noise of 3 blokes in and out of the house while loading the car? Apparently coming in for a cigarette after as well.
If the child was disturbed and woke, then SH would have been woken too I would have thought.
I do find her story telling doesn't ring true so much (or all) of the time, and keeps bringing doubt in my mind.
I understand that just because I think she is probably guilty that is nowhere enough to find her guilty though.

Is the 23rd Feb the night that KD & JI moved the boxes etc? JI said when he went back to Cotton Mill after taking boxes he went in for a 🤬🤬🤬 and a woman was shouting at the man (NM). Sorry I can't find where in court that bit was said. But, I would think that the fact SH was shouting had some kind of knowledge regarding these boxes/suitcases. SH claimed she was asleep and left them in the car talking?? Is this 'catching her out' or did they go to the house twice? Confused
 
  • #898
So SH,NM and their child were taken home in JI?s van? Although SH refers to them staying in the "car". So did KD pick them up in his car then JI arrived in the van? Can't see why they'd be picked up from Sh's parents rather than drive unless NM had drank too much, but then why not stay over at SH's parents again. They could have still got there in the morning to meet police.
<snip>

He/they needed to go back to CML that night to move the body before the police got there the next morning.

ETA Sorry - I misread the bit where you were trying to understand what excuse NM would have given SH if she were uninvolved
 
  • #899
Hoare claimed that during the evening of February 23 &#8211; when Matthews allegedly arranged for Becky's remains to be moved &#8211; she had fallen asleep.

She said the couple had been at her mother's home in Southmead and had been given a lift home by a friend of Matthews.

"Nathan stayed in the car chatting. I fell asleep," she said. "I don't know what time he came back in the house.

"In the morning I woke up and he was there."



Read more: http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...tory-28035571-detail/story.html#ixzz3pUaoxqtl




Thanks for reposting that bit Clio.

Her answers are difficult to believe imo. SH saying NM stayed in the car chatting until she fell asleep seems odd in itself, but what about their child?
Are we being asked to believe that the child fell asleep instantly also, and wasn't in the least disturbed by the noise of 3 blokes in and out of the house while loading the car? Apparently coming in for a cigarette after as well.
If the child was disturbed and woke, then SH would have been woken too I would have thought.
I do find her story telling doesn't ring true so much (or all) of the time, and keeps bringing doubt in my mind.
I understand that just because I think she is probably guilty that is nowhere enough to find her guilty though.

This is the thing it's not just one thing that's hard to believe with SH, it's pretty much ALL of it believe. Her version reminds me of some kind of kids cartoon where she constantly just misses seeing what NM is up to behind her back. She either goes out for a cigarette or falls asleep at just the right times to allow him to do what he needs to do. In reality NM would have had no idea how long she was going to be outside smoking in the garden and on removal night would have had no idea that she would go in and go straight to sleep, rather than come back out to see where he was and sleep through long enough for him to do everything he needed to do.
 
  • #900
He/they needed to go back to CML that night to move the body before the police got there the next morning.

Yup, WE know that but remember SH isn't supposed to know anything ... so what reason did he give her?
 
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