GUILTY UK - Sadie Hartley, 60, murdered, Helmshore, Lancs, 14 Jan 2016 #1

[Alyce]

Been looking up Stun Guns :shame:

A 1 million volt stun gun could kill on it's own, much more than is needed to disable someone. So they bought a 500,000 volt gun instead, but that seems to still be a powerful weapon, and allegedly this was meant for a female whose physical size was much less than a male.

The DM but an article about these weapons here : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...criminals-just-90-come-free-pepper-spray.html

So from reading back the evidence from Germany, it looks as though Williams wanted the million volt one but was unable to get it ? and had to settle for 500,000.
I wonder if she intended to just use the stun gun to commit the murder, but then realised that with the lower voltage one she would have to use other means as well ( yuk I feel quite sick typing that )

 

[jessie]

So from reading back the evidence from Germany, it looks as though Williams wanted the million volt one but was unable to get it ? and had to settle for 500,000.
I wonder if she intended to just use the stun gun to commit the murder, but then realised that with the lower voltage one she would have to use other means as well ( yuk I feel quite sick typing that )

Well it seems, omoo, that she certainly meant serious harm by hoping to purchase it.

 

[Tortoise]

[FONT=&amp]Mr Walsh then claimed he received a telephone call from Williams telling him she had a job suiting his “particular key skill” but did not want to discuss it over the phone and wanted to meet in person.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Sensing something “quite dodgy”, Mr Walsh, a Viking re-enactment enthusiast, said he decided to block Williams’ number and completely cut contact.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]In a subsequent diary entry Walsh said her ex-husband may have suspected that he was being embroiled in a murder plot and suggested he was being recruited for his archery skills.

[/FONT]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...uspect-katrina-walsh-feared-framed-co-accused

 

[jessie]

[FONT=&]Mr Walsh then claimed he received a telephone call from Williams telling him she had a job suiting his “particular key skill” but did not want to discuss it over the phone and wanted to meet in person.

[/FONT][FONT=&]Sensing something “quite dodgy”, Mr Walsh, a Viking re-enactment enthusiast, said he decided to block Williams’ number and completely cut contact.

[/FONT][FONT=&]In a subsequent diary entry Walsh said her ex-husband may have suspected that he was being embroiled in a murder plot and suggested he was being recruited for his archery skills.

[/FONT]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...uspect-katrina-walsh-feared-framed-co-accused[/QUOTE



Thanks Tortoise. From your Guardian link: -

In a subsequent diary entry, Walsh said her ex-husband may have suspected that he was being embroiled in a murder plot and suggested he was being recruited for his archery skills.


So glad I'm not on the jury (though they have more info than we do). Beggars belief.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks Tortoise. From your Guardian link: -

In a subsequent diary entry, Walsh said her ex-husband may have suspected that he was being embroiled in a murder plot and suggested he was being recruited for his archery skills.


So glad I'm not on the jury (though they have more info than we do). Beggars belief.

This is interesting to me.

Is a party to a murder plan, who may be so weak willed, and prone to fantasy, a bit simple shall I say, in someone's thrall, also guilty of murder? She went along with the plan, didn't say no or distance herself, had the information to have prevented it if she had warned someone, but does that make her equally dangerous? If the jury are not given an alternative charge, they might acquit if they feel she was just too weak willed and impressionable, a person not sophisticated enough to resist, so that manipulation could occur. It sounds to me as if she has to some extent a mental disability. But admittedly her diary entries don't sound like that. And then again to write everything down in that detail and not realise the consequences of that, by destroying it rather than hiding it, leads me back again to some lack of intelligence. I'm not surprised by her references to the TV game show Hunted any more, whereas at first I thought she must be kidding.

 

[Alyce]

Good point Tortoise. I am not sure if the Judge can direct them to consider a lower charge for Walsh or if it has to be murder or not guilty.
I also wonder if only having 11 jurors might create a problem if they cant agree.

 

[Tortoise]

I took it that Williams who was, no doubt, aware of how Walsh had to write everything down, was perhaps worried that Walsh would keep a very accurate record of the murder and was trying to stop her from doing so.

Good point Tortoise. I am not sure if the Judge can direct them to consider a lower charge for Walsh or if it has to be murder or not guilty.
I also wonder if only having 11 jurors might create a problem if they cant agree.

I've linked the two posts because I think it relates to the same issue. I suppose I'm struggling with whether Kit believed her. Is that her level of naivety or gullibility, or is it a ploy.

I do think SW has used her. I think she planned all along to say it was Kit who murdered Sadie. Got her to buy the knife, go with her to Germany, make contact her ex-husband Kevin Walsh, use her card to buy the trackers, deliver the flowers...and asked her not to write it in her diary. When Kit asked why, she came up with something dumb to appease her, like 'that way it means it didn't happen'.

If this is true then it kind of confirms that Kit was 'stupid' enough to just follow instructions without thinking of consequences or realising she was equally guilty of the crime, and was an easy target for SW.

But she does say something like - I won't be at the sharp end, no moral dilemma, just hope I don't get caught.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi all

Thanks Tortoise for the nudge that this case just started at trial. I'm still only on page 2 of the thread, working through Alyce's links - thanks Alyce.
I'll try not to ask too many questions, but so far:

-Did Sadie actually know about SW? ( Wondering why Sadie moved to the rented house in Helmsmore 18 months earlier? or just coincidence?)
-SW's old Chester neighbour says SW lived there with an older man( It's not IJ is it?! Or unrelated bloke)
-Did SW know that SH was due to board plane to Switz, next morning ?
- I am presuming IJ knew that SW was a threat and continuing nuisance as SW was arrested so quickly after Sadie's death. He must have pointed figure at SW very quickly, to the cops.

SW has planned this up to 2 yrs prior, yet makes no attempt to fake a burglary on night of murder - doesn't step beyond doorway after the stabbing. I know it was dark that January evening(?) but that's pretty flagrant considering there are overlooking houses and yet she sees herself as a meticulous planner!

A yes/no will do, I don't want anyone to have to go to any lengths to answer these.
Cheers.

 

[Tortoise]

Hi all

Thanks Tortoise for the nudge that this case just started at trial. I'm still only on page 2 of the thread, working through Alyce's links - thanks Alyce.
I'll try not to ask too many questions, but so far:

-Did Sadie actually know about SW? ( Wondering why Sadie moved to the rented house in Helmsmore 18 months earlier? or just coincidence?)
-SW's old Chester neighbour says SW lived there with an older man( It's not IJ is it?! Or unrelated bloke)
-Did SW know that SH was due to board plane to Switz, next morning ?
- I am presuming IJ knew that SW was a threat and continuing nuisance as SW was arrested so quickly after Sadie's death. He must have pointed figure at SW very quickly, to the cops.

SW has planned this up to 2 yrs prior, yet makes no attempt to fake a burglary on night of murder - doesn't step beyond doorway after the stabbing. I know it was dark that January evening(?) but that's pretty flagrant considering there are overlooking houses and yet she sees herself as a meticulous planner!

A yes/no will do, I don't want anyone to have to go to any lengths to answer these.
Cheers.

Morning cotton! Great to have you here.

It's good to be reminded of the earlier info that was reported.

Yes Sadie knew about SW - SW had written to her telling her she was having an affair with IJ
SW lived with a man in his seventies, David Hardwick - has been described as her sugar daddy
I think SW knew Sadie was due to join IJ skiing the next day - she definitely knew IJ had left already, although you will find SW/IJ relationship had broken up in 2014 it was rekindled in 2015 and I think they were probably speaking behind Sadie's back again - my speculation
Yes, I think IJ would have immediately thought of SW when prompted to think of anyone known to have a grudge, by police.

She was in and out of that house in just over 4 minutes according to cctv recording of her coming and going from her car. And in that time inflicted over 40 wounds.

 

[cottonweaver]

Thankyou so much , and such a speedy reply! Cheers.

SW had written to SH! So that was a more benign attempt to split them up before she turned to her "last resort".

Your speculation on the rekindling. Yes it seems as if SW knew SH was about to fly out. And IJ was so fast to lay the finger on SW , knowing that SW had been a clear threat to SH.

Sugar daddy! At least that wasn't IJ. I had shades of IJ living a total double life with 2 addresses by page 2.

Clearly IJ had not told SW where they had moved to in Helmsmore.

"Orgy of violence" Oh , 40 wounds in 4 mins - that is frenzied.

Crazy case . "Crazy" women. How on earth did SW think she would get away with an "assassination" - all that planning yet there was CCTV - she wasn't that clever

Poor Sadie.

Tx again. I will go and read all Alyce's links from page 3.

 

[Tortoise]

Sarah Williams' QC - Gordon Cole



a list of murder cases he has worked, from his page at Exchange Chambers -

R v Daniel Johnston (2016) - represented 1 of 3 defendants indicted of murder of 14 year old boy. Particuarly brutal killing in churchyard in Carlisle.
R v Hoyles (2015) - prosecuted defendant indicted with murder of woman - subject of BBC Two CPS documentary 'The Prosecutors'.
R v Liptrot (2015) - represented defendant indicted with Gross Negligence Manslaugther as a result of him being both landlord and serving firefighter. A tenant had set fire to one of his homes killing 5 persons.
R v Stephen Duggan (2015) - prosecuted defendant indicted with the murder of a woman passer by who stopped to assist in an argument between defendant and his partner.
R v Jervis (2014) - defence of drug / gang related killing.
R v David Ryan (2013) - defendant indicted with the murder of his girlfriend - lady who lived alone in Cheshire - alleging mutilation and murder as result of being forced to pay back monies he had conned from deceased.
R v Childs and Price (2013) - defendants charged and convicted of joint enterprise homicide.
R v Owen (2013) - double murder of partner and daughter.
R v Kenny (2013) - homicide by deliberately running over victim.
R v Ricky Jervis (2013) - drug related punishment killing.
R v Keith Rumbold (2012) - defended a man charged with murdering his wife who was ill with Alzheimer’s (Manchester).
R v Mark Done (2012) - successful defence of a man charged with murder in what is called a ‘no body murder’ (Chester Crown Court).
R v Howard & Cotterill (2012) - prosecuted two men in a murder by shooting (Manchester).
R v Ashleigh Robinson (2011) - defended woman charged with the pre-planned murder of her father (Mold Crown Court).
R v Andrew Daniels (2011) - successfully defended a man charged with attempted murder (Newcastle Crown Court).
R v Piotr Kruk (2011) - Polish defendant charged with murder - acquitted (Manchester Crown Court).
R v Colin Cain (2010) - defended high profile random murder of a young 15 year-old army cadet (Liverpool Crown Court).
R v Raeben Kareem (2010) - defence of murder and attempted murder of 2 others after imprisonment and torture by Kurdish Iraqi (Bradford Crown Court).

http://www.exchangechambers.co.uk/barristers/gordon-cole/cv/criminal

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]David Hardwick, 75, takes to stand[/h][FONT=&quot]The trial of the two women accused of murdering Sadie Hartley has continued this morning.
Sarah Williams and her friend Katrina Walsh are accused of plotting and killing Mrs Hartley in order to “remove her” after Miss Williams had an affair with Mrs Hartley’s partner Ian Johnston.
They both deny the charge of murder.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the witness box this morning is 75 year-old David Hardwick, who the court is told was in a relationship with Miss Williams for around 18 years.
He says he met Sarah, now 34, when he was 57 and Sarah was just 17.
He says “after a while” their relationship became a close and sexual one.
Businessman Mr Hardwick, who used to run a firm called Wirral Fuels, says he “slowly but surely” started financially supporting Miss Williams.
That included giving her £75,000 in 2012 to help buy her home in Chester.

[/FONT]
[h=3]Mr Hardwick saw Williams on day Sadie Hartley killed[/h][FONT=&quot]Mr Hardwick says he saw Miss Williams on the day Sadie Hartley was killed, in January this year.
He says she rang him to tell him she had been sent home from work at the Chill Factore opposite the Trafford Centre because she was ill.
He says he went round to her house at around 4:30pm and sat with her for around half an hour.
He says she remained in bed the entire time.
She later texted him to say she was “going to switch the light off and have a nap now.”
The prosecution have previously alleged in their opening of the case that this was the ‘first part of Sarah Williams alibi’ for the murder.
He says he went back to visit her at around 5am the day after the murder and she seemed much better.

[/FONT]
[h=3]Williams and Hardwick 'had two skiing holidays booked at time of arrest'[/h][FONT=&quot]Mr Hardwick says when he was told by the police Sarah had been arrested he “couldn’t believe it.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I asked them if they had the right Sarah Williams” he adds.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He says he and Sarah met through a mutual love of horses.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He says their relationship was “close and loving” and “nothing had changed” over time.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He adds at the time of her arrest that they had two skiing holidays to Canada together already booked and paid for.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He says he also got to know Katrina Walsh, known as Kit, over the last 18 years.
[/FONT]
[h=3]'I have never seen her physically violent' - Mr Hardwick[/h][FONT=&quot]Mr Hardwick says he remained living with his wife for the duration of his relationship with Sarah Williams.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However he says he would see her every morning and speak to her during the day.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He’s asked by Gordon Cole QC, defending Miss Williams, if she ever showed any anger or jealously towards his wife?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I don’t think so, no” he replies.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However he says she did often want to spend more time with him and suggested they get a holiday home together.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He says it’s “absolutely correct” that “I have never seen her physically violent” to anyone.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He adds she is fair and “likely to help people.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-8410948[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]'She wanted me to leave my wife'[/h][FONT=&quot]Mr Hardwick says he had “no idea” Williams was pursuing Sadie Hartley’s partner Ian Johnston.
Tony Cross QC, defending Katrina Walsh, says to him “without you she (Sarah Williams) simply could not have afforded the lifestyle she lived.”
However when Mr Cross says she was a “kept woman” Mr Hardwick says “I disagree. I take that very offensively.”
Mr Hardwick admits that there was a time during their relationship when she wanted him to leave his wife.
And he says “she would be angry or frustrated, whatever word you want to use” at him about it.
[/FONT]
[h=3]'She had a temper like everyone else'[/h][FONT=&quot]Mr Hardwick says of Miss Williams: “She was very opinionated.
“She had a temper like everyone else.
“Who doesn’t.”
He adds he saw “flashes” of anger from her down the years.
That concludes his evidence and the court is now taking a short break.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607748[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Alyce]

Morning cotton! Great to have you here.

It's good to be reminded of the earlier info that was reported.

Yes Sadie knew about SW - SW had written to her telling her she was having an affair with IJ
SW lived with a man in his seventies, David Hardwick - has been described as her sugar daddy
I think SW knew Sadie was due to join IJ skiing the next day - she definitely knew IJ had left already, although you will find SW/IJ relationship had broken up in 2014 it was rekindled in 2015 and I think they were probably speaking behind Sadie's back again - my speculation
Yes, I think IJ would have immediately thought of SW when prompted to think of anyone known to have a grudge, by police.

She was in and out of that house in just over 4 minutes according to cctv recording of her coming and going from her car. And in that time inflicted over 40 wounds.

Waves to Cotton !

One other thing I thought of - I am fairly sure it was in the evidence ( will have a scroll back in a mo ) that IanJ texted Williams while he was on hols in Switzerland and said WTTE Are we really going to do this ?
which could mean anything of course, but shows he was in touch with her.


ETA just found that bit of transcript from the trial. so this looks as though it is Williams reporting on what was said by IanJ and when it was said. So not necessarily true at all.


Witness: Williams confident relationship with Mr Johnston would move forward

Miss Botham says Sarah became increasingly confident her relationship with Ian would move forward.
She says she told her about one text where Ian had said to her “are we going to do this?”
Sarah said she told her they were going to discuss their future when he got back from the Switzerland trip in January.
The court is read a Facebook chat involving Miss Williams and Miss Botham in which Sarah said of Ian “Oh he’s so manly.”

 

[Alyce]

Interesting testimony from DH there, saying Williams was never physically violent and she only had a temper like everyone else

( I so dislike it when people use that as an excuse, not everyone has a temper and there are degrees )

Anyway, here's a tweet from last week that I posted earlier in the thread

Aban Quaynor ‏@AbanQuaynorLT 6m6 minutes ago
Mr S said Williams threatened to kill male partner of friend who friend had problem with
He said Mr Hardwick was worried


So presumably DH has forgotten about this particular incident ?

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]Pathologist says victim stabbed with 'considerable force'[/h][FONT=&quot]We are now hearing from the pathologist who carried out post-mortem on Sadie Hartley, Dr Philip Lumb.
He examined her body in situ at her home in Helmshore, Rossdendale where it was found.
He says she was discovered lying face down in a pool of blood near her dining room door.
He says there were clear stab wounds through her clothing and a piece of metal lodged in the collar of her jumper.
Dr Lumb adds “considerable force” would have been needed to cause some of Mrs Hartley’s injuries.

[/FONT]
[h=3]Mrs Hartley 'put her arms up to defend herself'[/h][FONT=&quot]Dr Lumb says Mrs Hartley appeared have a number of “defensive injuries” to her right hand and forearm where she may have “put her hands up to defend against a knife attack.”

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607748[/FONT]

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]'I cannot rule out the use of other knives'[/h][FONT=&quot]In total Mrs Hartley said had suffered 24 stab wounds and 17 incised wounds, the latter being a ‘slashing’ type injury.
Dr Lumb says he examined the knife, 20cm long and 4cm wide, which was found at Collinge Farm in Chester where Katrina Walsh worked.
He was the weapon is “compatible” with the injuries Mrs Hartley suffered.
“Yes it could have caused her injuries.
“However as a pathologist I cannot say conclusively and cannot rule out the use of other knives” he adds.
The court now breaks for lunch.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607748

[/FONT]

 

[Alyce]

That is an horrific attack in such a short space of time - what was it, something like 4 minutes from the time she parked the car to carrying out the attack and getting back into her car.

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]Pictured: David Hardwick[/h][FONT=&quot]CHRIS NEILL/MAVERICK PHOTOGRAPHY

David Hardwick[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here’s an image of witness David Hardwick leaving court a short time ago.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He told the murder trial how he had been in a relationship with accused Sarah Williams since she was 17 and he was 57.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He said the relationship was ‘close and loving’ but later admitted Williams had asked him to leave his wife.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-8410948[/FONT]

 

[jessie]

That is an horrific attack in such a short space of time - what was it, something like 4 minutes from the time she parked the car to carrying out the attack and getting back into her car.

The injuries Sadie sustained were listed :

'Sadie was 5ft4ins and weighed 9st 6lbs. She suffered 24 stab wounds. Six to the head and neck, four to her right arm, five to the back, five to the front of the chest, two to the abdomen and two to the right leg.
'She also suffered multiple cuts. One to her face, five to her right arm, nine to the left arm and two to the torso. There were also two puncture wounds to her head.
'There were injuries under her collar which suggest she was first subdued in that unpleasant and literally shocking way before the assault on all sides with a knife.'
The reconstruction images showed a slash wound just below her right eye, the section between her thumb and fingers on the left hand completely cut out in a triangular shape, a through and through stab wound on her right arm and 'a through and through' stab wound straight through her neck.
Mr McDermott said: 'Can you imagine the force that would be needed to stab someone right through their neck?'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-year-old-love-rival-death.html#ixzz4EIDXbKLj