GUILTY UK - Sadie Hartley, 60, murdered, Helmshore, Lancs, 14 Jan 2016 #1

[Tortoise]

[h=3]'You led her on'[/h][FONT=&quot]Mr Cole puts it to Mr Johnston that he had sent explicit photographs of himself to Miss Williams.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I do not remember sending any pictures of my genitalia to Sarah Williams” he tells the court.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“You led her on.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“You led her on and on to think there was something in your relationship didn’t you?” Mr Cole asks him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“No I didn’t” he replies.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11612481[/FONT]

 

[Tortoise]

Does it justify a murder, or what?

 

[Alyce]

I think Cole is trying to highlight the fact that IanJ kept stringing Williams along - but it's a fine line. He may not have very good morals or ethics with regard to women, but that doesn't mean they can point the finger at him for being involved, even in a very detached way, in a murder.

IJs earlier comments about how Williams came to the house and he couldnt stop her etc...there are ways and means to do that, even if he had to take out a restraining order against her. I think IJs comment that he was flattered by the attention of a younger female sums him up. He didnt really want anything serious with her but was quite happy to have the occasional dalliance ( love that word ) and keep up the connection.

It is difficult isnt it. I think he is a slimy little individual. However, I doubt in his wildest dreams he ever thought Williams would resort to murder.

Slightly off topic, but I wonder how Sadie's children view him. They clearly know him well so their opinion would be interesting to hear.

 

[Tortoise]

I just can't see how it relates to a defence of 'KW did it, not me'.

Unless it's a fall back defence, but of what I don't know. Diminished responsibility?

 

[Tortoise]

Didn't he text her and say 'are we going to do it?'

must surely mean get together. just had a dreadful feeling it meant more.

no...

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]'I wanted to end the relationship... she was very persuasive'[/h][FONT=&quot]Mr Johnston is asked by Mr Cole if he “wanted rid” of Sarah Williams?
He says: “I didn’t want a relationship with her.
“She was embeded in the ski group
“I was probably too kind.
“I didn’t want rid of her I just didn’t want it to continue.
“But I did continue to text her.”
Mr Cole brings up a visit to Sarah Williams house in November 2013 where Mr Johnston says he went round to fix some telemark skiing equipment.
However Mr Johnston also admits the pair had sex on that occasion.
He says in response to more text messages which are read out: “I wanted to end the relationship.
“I’m not saying I did, I’m saying I was trying.
“She was very persistent and she was very persuasive.
“At that time (December 2013) there were lots of texts flying around.”
He adds at that time he and Sadie had been away together but “hadn’t made any commitments.”

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11612481[/FONT]

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]Did Mrs Hartley know about the texts? 'No, she didn't'[/h][FONT=&quot]Mr Johnston is asked if Mrs Hartley knew about the texts.
“No she didn’t” he replies.
Mr Cole says: “This wasn’t you trying to get rid of her (Sarah Williams) was it?
“You wanted her and you wanted a relationship to continue with her?”
“No I didn’t” Mr Johnston replies.
The court now breaks for lunch.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11612481[/FONT]

 

[Tortoise]

I don't know why he's giving evidence, I really don't see the benefit to the prosecution or the defence.

 

[Alyce]

Didn't he text her and say 'are we going to do it?'

must surely mean get together. just had a dreadful feeling it meant more.

no...

I thought that, but when I went back and re read the evidence, it was a witness who said Williams told her ( the witness ) that IanJ had texted Williams and said that. So unless Williams has that text, it could just be Williams making it up.

 

[Alyce]

I don't know why he's giving evidence, I really don't see the benefit to the prosecution or the defence.

I was about to say he must have been called by Defence, to try and shift some blame onto him and diminish Williams's charge...but then I realised we are still in Pros time.

So can only think the Pros wanted to put him up there to try and show even more evidence as to why Williams was so determined to get rid of Sadie - and perhaps to further highlight Williams's manic, obsessive character and how she acts like a woman possessed when she wants something.

 

[Tortoise]

In fact he seems to be aiding the defence more than the crown. As if he psyched her up to it and is somehow partly responsible. He said the only negative he saw from SW was the letter. I thought they'd ask him if he thought of SW when he heard Sadie had been murdered.

 

[Tortoise]

cross posted with you Alyce. Yes, I suppose it does show her to be determined in her goal.

 

[Legally Bland]

I'm guessing SW's defence may try to say KW saw the texts and decided that SH was standing in the way of her friend's and IJ's happiness, so KW killed SH independently of SW.

I don't believe that's what happened, just speculating.

 

[JerricaBenton]

What are we thinking about IJ so far?

 

[Cherwell]

What are we thinking about IJ so far?

Wondering what the fatal attraction can be? :waitasec:

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]'It's not the kind of thing I have done before'[/h][FONT=&quot]We are now back underway after the lunch adjournment.
Over the break Mr Johnston was shown a number of explicit images Miss Williams` defence say he sent to her via text message.
After viewing them he says he may have sent them but he didn’t recognise them and that “it’s not the kind of thing I have done before.”
He also says he is “absolutely sure” he never gave Miss Williams a set of keys to his house.
In the weeks before Sadie died Mr Johnston said “there were no issues per say” in their relationship.
“There was a lot of pressure on our relationship from external factors.
“I attempted to talk to her about these because she appeared teary and stressed about it.
“But there were lots of reasons that could have been.”

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11612481[/FONT]

 

[Cherwell]

He also says he is “absolutely sure” he never gave Miss Williams a set of keys to his house.

His house? Might want to clarify that question.

 

[Tortoise]

His house? Might want to clarify that question.

I think they're talking about the place he lived at before he moved in with Sadie.

That is where SW turned up, and (it is claimed) he left her a key 'to let herself out' and she used it to get some copies cut.

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]'My main concern was an embarrassing outburst if we were to meet'[/h][FONT=&quot]The court hears Mr Johnston and Sarah Williams were still exchanging texts in November and December 2015, just weeks before Sadie Hartley was killed in January 2016.
Mr Johnston says: “I remember very little of this period.”
Mr Cole says many of these messages were also sexually explicit.
He says Miss Williams sent an explicit photograph to him which he replied: “Oh my. xx”
Mr Cole says he was “actively encouraging her” to continue this contact.
“You’re not telling her to stop or to go away are you?”
Mr Johnston says he was “doing his best to keep her on board” in order to maintain relations within the ski group.
He says he would often be at the Chill Factore, where Sarah worked, and “my main concern was an embarrassing outburst if we were to meet.”
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11612481

[/FONT]

 

[Alyce]

Summary of this morning's evidence

While the court is at lunch, here’s a summary of what we’ve heard this morning.
Sarah Williams and Katrina Walsh both deny murdering 60-year-old Sadie Hartley.
Sadie Hartley’s partner at the time of her death, Ian Johnston, has been in the witness stand this morning. He has been explaining how they had broken up previously, but got back in touch in 2010 and rekindled their relationship.
Mr Johnston said he then met Sarah Williams, one of the defendants, in December 2012 through a ski club.
He told the court that the relationship developed ‘very quickly’.
He told the court: “There was no dating. She came round to my house, after being invited, and she arrived in a short skirt and red high heels.”
Questioned by the defence for Sarah Williams, Mr Johnston said their relationship was ‘purely sexual’ and that from spring 2013 he had decided ‘he didn’t want a relationship with her’.
Mr Johnston broke down in court when he said that in 2014 he had gone away on holiday with Sadie Hartley and ‘planned their future’. They moved in together in November 2014.
But the court has heard that text messages between Mr Johnston and Sarah Williams continued into late 2015. Many of the texts were explicit and contained naked photographs.
Mr Johnston told the court: “I was flattered by a young lady.”

The prosecution claims Sarah Williams was ‘obsessed’ with Mr Johnston, and wanted to ‘ruthlessly remove’ Sadie Hartley.
Sadie Hartley was found stabbed more than 40 times after being paralysed with a high-voltage stun gun as she answered her front door in Helmshore, Lancashire. Miss Williams, from Chester, denies murder.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11612481