GUILTY UK - Sadie Hartley, 60, murdered, Helmshore, Lancs, 14 Jan 2016 #1

[Alyce]

OK this is the Daily Fail so could be inaccurate ( they have got the names wrong in the main article ! ) but this might explain the letter situation.

This snippet reads as though Williams drafted a hand written letter which she was planning to send to Sadie, but IJ intercepted it and destroyed it.

Then it would seem that Williams typed up her letter and sent that one to Sadie.


The court is now being read extracts of a letter which Sarah Williams is said to have sent to Sadie Hartley telling her about her relationship with Ian Johnston.

Mr Johnston says Miss Williams showed him a similar, hand-written letter but he destroyed it as he thought 'most of it was nonsense.'

He says he didn't know Mrs Hartley had kept a copy of the letter she received.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...otstep-tells-horror-murder.html#ixzz4EOQn08wJ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Alyce]

exactly

I think SW hand wrote (drafted) the letter, typed it to send to Sadie. Kept the draft hand written one and showed it to IJ. He tore it up. I don't think Sadie typed it or copied it.

Good thinking there. Have just posted up a snip from a Daily Mail article which seems to indicate exactly this.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm thinking this could be prosecution's last witness? Can't think of any evidence they haven't covered.

 

[cottonweaver]

Didn't he text her and say 'are we going to do it?'

must surely mean get together. just had a dreadful feeling it meant more.

no...

BIB Must admit this thought crossed my mind whilst I was on catch up. I did dismiss it it though...... ha ha

 

[Tortoise]

BIB Must admit this thought crossed my mind whilst I was on catch up. I did dismiss it it though...... ha ha

Well the only thing I wanted to hear from IJ was whether he was shocked to discover SW had been arrested, whether he had pointed the finger at her, and only that would interest me as a juror. Not his irrelevant sordid sex life and cheating.

 

[Alyce]

Agree Tortoise. Surely that would be the more relevant info to know, whether or not IJ immediately suspected Williams and named her to police.

I dont think the Defence have done anything for their clients with their odd ( being polite here ) questions to IJ.

 

[Cherwell]

This snippet reads as though Williams drafted a hand written letter which she was planning to send to Sadie, but IJ intercepted it and destroyed it.

Then it would seem that Williams typed up her letter and sent that one to Sadie.

That is more or less how I interpreted it, that she wrote a draft and possibly showed it to him. He told her not to be ridiculous and tore it up.
Then she typed out another and posted it.

This assumes that he did see SW in person, but I suppose it could have been at the ski place.

 

[Tortoise]

Loads more detail in this article.

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/n...hanged-explicit-messages-court-told-1-8014661

Perhaps this was the reason the prosecution wanted him to testify -

" Williams arrived at Mr Johnston's home the day after the letter was received, Mr Johnston said, and she again was wearing a short skirt and red high heels.He said: "I tried to stop her in the doorway. She physically tried to move me out of the way to get in. I was very aware I had to restrain her and I didn't want to hurt her.
"She was shocked at me not letting her in. She appeared shocked that I knew about the letter, the letter was anonymous.
"Sadie asked me who it was from and I said it was Sarah Williams.
"I managed to get her (Sarah) out of the house. I felt it was immature and childish. She left shouting and screaming and walked down the road with her high heels in her hands."

And a text from IJ to SW from Switzerland -

"On January 10, Mr Johnston texted Williams from Switzerland: "All going well and we have snow."
Williams replied: "Glad to hear ... giving a great big cuddle to keep you warm."

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]Court adjourned until tomorrow morning[/h][FONT=&quot]That is all the evidence we’re going to hear today.
After some brief legal discussion the trial is adjourned until 10.30am tomorrow morning.


[/FONT]

 

[jessie]

Well the only thing I wanted to hear from IJ was whether he was shocked to discover SW had been arrested, whether he had pointed the finger at her, and only that would interest me as a juror. Not his irrelevant sordid sex life and cheating.

Couldn't agree more.

SW hasn't come across as an innocent young girl taken in by his promises of a long term relationship (as if that's any excuse for this horrific murder !!)

At 17 years old she began a long term relationship with a wealthy (?) generous (?) married man 40 years her senior. Obviously we don't know how many interim relationshps she has had however fleeting.

IJ may have behaved badly in a moral sense, but he was single, older, flattered by the persistent attentions of a younger attractive woman with whom he had frequent business contact - can't imagine the guilt, regret, embarrassment and shame he now feels.

Never been to a court, but very surprised that the cross examination was considered relevant somehow.

OMOO

 

[cottonweaver]

Well the only thing I wanted to hear from IJ was whether he was shocked to discover SW had been arrested, whether he had pointed the finger at her, and only that would interest me as a juror. Not his irrelevant sordid sex life and cheating.

Agree, it was completely unclear

He says he was informed about his partner’s death after receiving a phone call from the police at around midnight on January 14th

I am surprised that they haven't asked him about signs of strange/threatening behaviour from SW. I suppose his stupidity has underlined motive for the Prosecution, even if he has done his reputation no good whatsoever. The Defence has thrown some mud around, you never know the odd jury member might be more sympathetic to SW now, in term s of her being led on by IJ.

During discovery, I presume he saw all the sexting evidence and yes he probably had wiped that from his phone long ago.

Despite him being not credible in his accounts of both relationships, I am also surprised at the timeline of their relationship . SW's letter said they started the affair in 2013, in the letter to Sadie

“He’s been having an affair with me since returning from Camp Suisse in August 2013.

He says they met Dec 21012, it escalated to sex quickly, wtte, and that by Spring 2013 he didn't want a reln with her.

Mr

Johnston says he decided from Spring 2013 onwards he had decided “he didn’t want a relationship with her.”

 

[Tortoise]

I think it's to do with his definition of the word relationship cotton. He's happy with sex at his house but can't be seen with her.

 

[cottonweaver]

[h=3]Letter sent to Sadie Hartley's home[/h][FONT="]We are hearing more about the letter the prosecution say Sarah Williams sent to Sadie Hartley in September 2014.
Mr Johnston says he remembers that the letter was hand-written and he destroyed it.
However, the court hears the letter found in Mrs Hartley’s home was typed and had a phone number on it.
Mr Johnston says Sadie told she him had phoned the number on it “but she didn’t know it was Sarah”.
However he says from the content “it was pretty clear who it was from.”

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11612481[/FONT]

BIB Were there any more details on that ? Did he say what he thought had occurred in that call between the two women? Wonder how he explained that to Sadie? He told Sadie a "story"/another name for the mystery woman?
Wonder what SW is going to say about that - if Sadie & her indeed did speak on the phone?

all i just read was

He said: “We discussed the letter and its merits and we decided in all the circumstances, and for all sorts of reasons, we should get together.
“Sadie was a very pragmatic and driven lady.”

 

[cottonweaver]

I think it's to do with his definition of the word relationship cotton. He's happy with sex at his house but can't be seen with her.

For sure.
But it's interesting that the dates do not match SW's letter. SW would have wanted to exaggerate the affair to Sadie, lengthen it yet she says in her Sept 2014 letter:

“Dear Sadie, I think you should know that Ian has been cheating on you for over a year.
“He’s been having an affair with me since returning from Camp Suisse in August 2013.

It's actually a year and a half since they started the fling.

 

[Alyce]

I think IJ was quoting the dates that worked best for him and trying to downplay the relationship as much as possible, saying it was over by 2013 when clearly it wasnt.

I found it odd that he struggled to remember when he first got together with Williams ( December 2012 ) - what was the word he used - agonised ? - but seemed quite sure when it was all over between them ( Spring 2013 ).
Surely, if the relationship was that brief, it wouldnt be too difficult to remember when it ended.

 

[Alyce]

The Defence has thrown some mud around, you never know the odd jury member might be more sympathetic to SW now, in term s of her being led on by IJ.

Yes, good point. Poor deluded female being led on by much older man. Could work and I guess for them, worth a try.

Although my take would be- we have already seen that Williams was no stranger to older men and quite the expert in knowing how to use them for her own needs.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, good point. Poor deluded female being led on by much older man. Could work and I guess for them, worth a try.

Although my take would be- we have already seen that Williams was no stranger to older men and quite the expert in knowing how to use them for her own needs.

Yes true.
I expect that in the sexting exchanges, she was the initiator and he readily replied with his photos. ( ie. she send the first provocative text in an exchange.) She knew how to work him/his "weakness" as well as hide her bunny boiler side, that's according to his testimony anyway.
Her colleagues and other witnesses were under no illusion about some of those unstable character flaws. "pyschotic, unhinged, bizarre", "fantasy land", "feral", "aggressive". Jury may well think he is leaving out a lot of stuff, but it's immaterial.

Feeling even sorrier for Sadie now though, she presumably moved to Helmshore for him. You previous link - he is Mountain Rescue volunt. up there, he'd need to be fairly local to respond to the calls in the Pennines.

( Agree with you re. her adult kids, I am sure they take a dim view. However I don't think anyone, except poss Kevin Walsh would really expect SW to go this far, Anne Dodds in hindsight of course. The evil duo are in a parallel universe, so it's terribly sad that their lives should connect with mum Sadie's through Ian. )

 

[cottonweaver]

ok in another paper, it says that IJ told Sadie, the letter was from SW

 

[Tortoise]

ok in another paper, it says that IJ told Sadie, the letter was from SW

Is that the same paper as the quote I posted from above #428?

 

[JerricaBenton]

Are they in court this morning?