GUILTY UK - Sara Sharif, 10, found murdered in house, Surrey, Aug 2023 *POIs ARREST* #4

[Alyce]

US and M grew up there too …. Torture is perhaps a more common means of control ( recently historically at least ) than in UK - I am thinking about their nonchalance and normalisation of it within their household, referring to the horror as discipline and punishment. Particularly if US had been exposed to reports via his family connections in the Pakistan army. MOO.

ETA - Not in any way looking to excuse, just to understand.

A question - Is it strange thing for a taxi driver to do (was it two?) CPR/ First aid courses ?

I wonder if he did a First Aid course while working for McDonalds ? Not due to any sense of kindness or responsibility but simply to earn more money.
I don't know what McDs policy is, but many Companies do pay their 1stAiders a small supplement.

 

[Dotta]

The father of Sara Sharif has denied that he deliberately destroyed phone evidence after the girl was found dead.

Urfan Sharif was questioned as to why none of the relatives had brought their phones back from Pakistan, where they travelled to the day after 10-year-old Sara died.

<modsnip - posting more than 10% is a copyright violation - see link>

Sara Sharif’s dad denies destroying phone evidence - BBC News

Jurors were "denied the treasure trove” of evidence surrounding Sara's death, the Old Bailey hears.

www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[HongKongPhooey]

This case is just horrific

 

[JennieM]

The father of Sara Sharif has denied that he deliberately destroyed phone evidence after the girl was found dead.

Urfan Sharif was questioned as to why none of the relatives had brought their phones back from Pakistan, where they travelled to the day after 10-year-old Sara died.

Prosecutor Bill Emlyn Jones KC said the jury had been
“denied the treasure trove”
of messages, photos and videos.

"If we had your phone,
there would be tonnes of messages talking about Sara,"
Mr Emlyn Jones KC told Mr Sharif.

“Months, years of being punished, you were discussing in these messages.
When you went to Pakistan,
you made sure those phones didn’t come back.”

Mr Sharif replied:
“We did not leave the phones in Pakistan deliberately.
The phones were in the car when the police raided.”

Sara Sharif’s dad denies destroying phone evidence - BBC News

Jurors were "denied the treasure trove” of evidence surrounding Sara's death, the Old Bailey hears.

www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Is he suggesting police threw away evidence? The phones were in the car so where are they now?

 

[PKFS]

From what I gather, Batool would call Urfan and complain about Sara, so he comes home to "discipline" Sara.
Why do that if you know Urfan's violence towards Sara?! Unless Batool wanted Urfan to beat Sara...
IMO

Also, I think one of the barristers stated that it would have taken 2 people to burn Sara on her buttocks (one to hold her down and another to inflict the horror).

In UK, the houses and rooms are small compared to some other countries like USA and Canada, purely because UK is a tiny island. With so many adults and kids living in the house, ALL the kids have seen and heard what happened to Sara. Especially the 13yr old boy.

The property is 3 bedrooms - I reckon 1 bedroom - Batool, Urfan and the baby, 2nd bedroom - Mailk and the 13yr old, 3rd bedroom bunkbed for twins this is a single size room judging by other properties in the street. Typically most homes of that ilk have 2 double bedrooms and 1 single bedroom.
So... where did Sara sleep? did she sleep somewhere else (so that's why others didnt hear her crying in the night?)
Just my thoughts...

 

[GRT]

I keep wondering if sexual assault was also involved at some point. The one photo of her dressed up just seems to make her look older than her tender years and I guess I'm not a fan of that sort of look for a young girl.

JMOO

 

[UK Girl]

From what I gather, Batool would call Urfan and complain about Sara, so he comes home to "discipline" Sara.
Why do that if you know Urfan's violence towards Sara?! Unless Batool wanted Urfan to beat Sara...
IMO

Also, I think one of the barristers stated that it would have taken 2 people to burn Sara on her buttocks (one to hold her down and another to inflict the horror).

In UK, the houses and rooms are small compared to some other countries like USA and Canada, purely because UK is a tiny island. With so many adults and kids living in the house, ALL the kids have seen and heard what happened to Sara. Especially the 13yr old boy.

The property is 3 bedrooms - I reckon 1 bedroom - Batool, Urfan and the baby, 2nd bedroom - Mailk and the 13yr old, 3rd bedroom bunkbed for twins this is a single size room judging by other properties in the street. Typically most homes of that ilk have 2 double bedrooms and 1 single bedroom.
So... where did Sara sleep? did she sleep somewhere else (so that's why others didnt hear her crying in the night?)
Just my thoughts...

Not just that the neighbours said she was abusing Sara whilst he was at work so why did she call him complaining anyhow?

 

[Dotta]

From Polish MSM which follows this trial attentively



"During Sharif's cross-examination,
his lawyer, Naeem Mian KC, asked for time to speak to his client,
seeing that his testimony was starting to take an unexpected turn.

His sudden admission of guilt caused mixed feelings
and
broke down the defence he had been trying to build."

Ha!
Exactly what I wrote here.
I just knew it would draw attention in Poland.

Wielka Brytania. Śmierć Sary Sharif. ojciec przyznaje się do winy w sądzie – Wprost

www-wprost-pl.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Dotta]

"Photos
have been released
of a cricket bat and pole
which Urfan Sharif said he used to attack Sara."

Sara Sharif's father denies her body was jetwashed before family fled to Pakistan

Sara's father Urfan Sharif, his wife Beinash Batool, and his brother Faisal Malik are accused of being party to years-long abuse which culminated in her death. They all deny the charges against them.

news.sky.com

 

[Nikynoo]

I wonder if he did a First Aid course while working for McDonalds ? Not due to any sense of kindness or responsibility but simply to earn more money.
I don't know what McDs policy is, but many Companies do pay their 1stAiders a small supplement.

I thought it was part of the requirement for gaining access/custody of the children. I think that both the first aid course and the course on parenting was mentioned in the same day in court.

 

[Nikynoo]

Is he suggesting police threw away evidence? The phones were in the car so where are they now?

I think he means the police in Pakistan.

 

[Dotta]

I think he means the police in Pakistan.

I do NOT believe a single word this individual says.
Aaaargh!
Sure,
Police in Pakistan took away the evidence
Blah blah blah

Pathological liar!!
Maybe he should have stayed in P. and I wonder if he dared to accuse LE then.

Liar liar pants on fire!!!

JMO

 

[GRT]

I do NOT believe a single word this individual says.
Aaaargh!
Sure,
Police in Pakistan took away the evidence
Blah blah blah

Pathological liar!!
Maybe he should have stayed in P. and I wonder if he dared to accuse LE then.

Liar liar pants on fire!!!

JMO

Agree! 100%

 

[porkypies]

From what I gather, Batool would call Urfan and complain about Sara, so he comes home to "discipline" Sara.
Why do that if you know Urfan's violence towards Sara?! Unless Batool wanted Urfan to beat Sara...
IMO

Also, I think one of the barristers stated that it would have taken 2 people to burn Sara on her buttocks (one to hold her down and another to inflict the horror).

In UK, the houses and rooms are small compared to some other countries like USA and Canada, purely because UK is a tiny island. With so many adults and kids living in the house, ALL the kids have seen and heard what happened to Sara. Especially the 13yr old boy.

The property is 3 bedrooms - I reckon 1 bedroom - Batool, Urfan and the baby, 2nd bedroom - Mailk and the 13yr old, 3rd bedroom bunkbed for twins this is a single size room judging by other properties in the street. Typically most homes of that ilk have 2 double bedrooms and 1 single bedroom.
So... where did Sara sleep? did she sleep somewhere else (so that's why others didnt hear her crying in the night?)
Just my thoughts...

I thought there were total 9 people in the house?
So I would say room 1= Batool, Urfan, Baby. room 2= Twins, Sarah, + one Girl, then the small room 3= Malik and 13 yr old boy.
But however it was arranged, it makes me think that Sara must have been put in the outhouse regularly, otherwise the rest of the children and Malik, would have seen, heard, and known too much of what was happening to her, however they surely missed her and asked why?
Urfan has said that Sara's soiling herself was perhaps from being restrained and unable to get to the toilet - but if she were restrained indoors she might have shouted and screamed for the toilet?
If Sara were to be locked away, there is no other place to lock her that rest of the family did not use.
At some point Sara was sent to school, in full muslim clothing and headgear, in my opinion, simply to cover up her injuries and bruising after this 'normal' level of abuse became established in the household.
Having to lie to her school friends and teachers about the bruises and scratches they had noticed, then about her change to muslim dress, then to go home for additional abuse was surely too stressful for a 10 year old.
So perhaps it need not be surprising that she subsequently started vomiting and soiling herself to the extent that she had to wear nappies - or did something change at home?
For fear of medical intervention, she could no longer be sent to school in that state, and was suddenly withdrawn for 'home schooling'. That appears to be when the deadly abuse was let loose.

My feeling is that Batool's emails to her sister, made public, read more to me like a sharing of the experience of Sara's abuse than a call for help or concern from Batool's sister.
And the failure of the adults to ever get any help or medical treatment of any sort for Sara, or to remove Sara from danger, was not born of carelessness or neglect, or concern about the fate of the other children - but because those adults wanted the status quo to continue.

 

[seasideForest]

I don't know, I think I would need to see some kind of evidence that U was actually tortured as a child to take that on board. Reports of its existence doesn't do it for me. MOO

I wonder if @Sooty is referring more to the prevalence of violence and possibly torture in certain parts of society and the way that may be tolerated or at least a blind eye turned rather than that U himself was actually tortured? What is permissible or at least tolerated in a society or parts thereof or in an (extended) family could help those inclined to violence to go all-out and commit it themselves. Note I say "to those inclined". Not all those exposed to violence and abuse go on to abuse others, obviously.
'Tolerating' may simply mean everybody turns a blind eye or one member of the family decides on punishment and nobody else questions it for many possible reasons which I'm not listing so as not to go more off-topic.

U. might well have experienced corporal punishment, even of a severity which might have been normal a good few generations back in Western societies but no longer is. Instead of vowing to not do this to his own children and actually fully engage in those parenting and anger management courses he went full out the other way, so not just corporal punishment but sadistic enjoyment of causing pain, so torture, even when Sara had done no harm. And even if she had done something that needed correcting - as all children do - none of what U. did could be considered parenting in any way. - Sorry just ranting, all this is pretty much known and accepted here on WS. Anyway U. might have experienced severe corporal punishment and also experienced it as being shrugged off by his society (whether extended family or a wider society we don't know) as 'normal discipline'. So he continued it and worse.

These are my surmises, based a little on how abusive family systems work (personal experience) and on extensive reading. However I am not a psychologist, trauma therapist, social worker or anything like that.

MOO JMO

 

[PKFS]

Excluding NS if the others came back where would they go anyhow? into care?

Compared to many countries (possibly excluding Scandinavian countries), the UK has one of best comprehensive oversight, strong legal protections, and specialized foster care programs for children especially those that need specialist care. Certainly better than Pakistan's. What the children need is unbiased guardians who provides a normal, loving environment to grow and overcome their trauma.

My concern is in the bias that they will experience staying with the grandparents.
U's family is not going to tell them their father is a monster and the mother/stepmother is the same, are they?!

Also, how is Olga gonna see her son growing up if she has to travel to Pakistan every time? This would be very unfair for her to incur the cost of travel and stay (especially as a single woman travelling to Pakistan....also if she is recognised as Sara's mother).

JMO

 

[seasideForest]

Not just that the neighbours said she was abusing Sara whilst he was at work so why did she call him complaining anyhow?

Sadism? He asked her to? To get Sara into even more trouble? Any number of possible reasons.
Or is your question rhetorical?

 

[Charlot123]

I can guarantee he is not insane. He is just controlling and cannot face accepting guilt. Isn't he just a plain old narcissist?

Narcissist is becoming an umbrella term. I think that he is 1) manipulative but not smart, intellectually; 2) impulsively spending - maybe some mood component? 3) sadly, sadistic and maybe enjoying inflicting pain, probably, on women. He probably enjoyed it in general, but torturing one person would be easier to conceal, since she could be kept out of school and under hijab. I think if he got away with this murder, he’d switch over to another child, and probably, a girl.
4) i think it is some sadistic trait that runs in family, and for sure his brother needs to be investigated for the same. If let out, such people turn into abductors/killers. 5) Beinash is as guilty as he is. I think the only reason Urfan attacked Sara was because it would be easier than one of Beinash’s girls. He needed Beinash - she spoke good English, was (as I suspect) academically much brighter than himself, and took care of six kids. I think she had own issues with Sara and lied to the school to cover her abuse up and was a big part of the family’s escape to Pakistan, and spoke there for all of them. And, she has own sadism.

Urfan was a taxicab driver, I wonder if any abductions/deaths happened around the places he used to work at? In Poland, too?

 

[UK Girl]

Compared to many countries (possibly excluding Scandinavian countries), the UK has one of best comprehensive oversight, strong legal protections, and specialized foster care programs for children especially those that need specialist care. Certainly better than Pakistan's. What the children need is unbiased guardians who provides a normal, loving environment to grow and overcome their trauma.

My concern is in the bias that they will experience staying with the grandparents.
U's family is not going to tell them their father is a monster and the mother/stepmother is the same, are they?!

Also, how is Olga gonna see her son growing up if she has to travel to Pakistan every time? This would be very unfair for her to incur the cost of travel and stay (especially as a single woman travelling to Pakistan....also if she is recognised as Sara's mother).

JMO

I don't really share your opinion on the British foster care system tbh. The other issue is in this country at least it would be taken into consideration where he wants to live and to be fair she never actually saw him before. The other question is at this point is splitting the kids up a good thing?

 

[Charlot123]

Compared to many countries (possibly excluding Scandinavian countries), the UK has one of best comprehensive oversight, strong legal protections, and specialized foster care programs for children especially those that need specialist care. Certainly better than Pakistan's. What the children need is unbiased guardians who provides a normal, loving environment to grow and overcome their trauma.

My concern is in the bias that they will experience staying with the grandparents.
U's family is not going to tell them their father is a monster and the mother/stepmother is the same, are they?!

Also, how is Olga gonna see her son growing up if she has to travel to Pakistan every time? This would be very unfair for her to incur the cost of travel and stay (especially as a single woman travelling to Pakistan....also if she is recognised as Sara's mother).

JMO

I think it is a long road ahead of everyone, but let us at first secure these three behind bars, and for as long as the British justice system will allow. Hopefully, forever.
And then we can weigh in the situation.