GUILTY UK - Sara Sharif, 10, found murdered in house, Surrey, Aug 2023 *POIs ARREST* #4

[PoirotPink]

There's some debate here about what will happen to the kids and i chanced upon this timely article about the state of children's welfare when parents are imprisoned in the UK, with some left fending for themselves, completely alone:

More support needed for children after parental imprisonment

Woman's Hour on Radio 4 has spoken to those affected by a parent being sent to prison.

www.bbc.co.uk

Re: Comments speculating about Urfan's family and how he was raised. I tend to believe what he says about a lack of discipline as he grew up. For most, people who've been mistreated as children by their own parents will usually do the opposite when they have their own, because everyone learns lessons from their parents' mistakes if they've been harmed by it. Neglectful parents often raise children who go on to become helicopter parents to their own offspring etc. Hypothetically, it's not unfeasible for Urfan to have been raised in a lax household with no discipline, especially if he was the eldest boy with "golden child" privileges which meant he could do as he wanted. This lack of discipline may have contributed to his lack of impulse control, so he gambled and became an alcoholic (both of which were against his religion). Seeing these aspects of his life spiralling may have resulted in a desire to enforce discipline more strictly with his own children. That makes more sense to me than a scenario that he was beaten himself as a child.

I stated in a previous thread that I got a different vibe from Batool's family - toxic, is how I described it. Some of the messages between the sisters made me think at least one of her sisters is "backwards" in her views. Indeed, it's been confirmed that Batool fled her childhood home and sought shelter, describing herself as a victim of honour abuse.

The children aren't fugitives, but I don't find it surprising that Batool would rather leave her children with Urfan's family in another country rather than bring them back to be housed with her sisters in the UK (despite their closer relationship). That speaks volumes.

I feel the grandfather has been trying to do what's best for the children. I do think he is willing and capable of providing a safe home for them. If you read the article I linked above, you can see that housing is the least of the problems the children will face if they return to the UK. Navigating the care system, being split up, the social stigma of imprisoned parents and their crimes. They're anonymous now, but they won't be to the people who come to know them. The eldest child is also just a few years away from having no state support at all and is certainly getting close to the age where he gets to choose what he wants.

JMO

 

[PoirotPink]

Re: The jetwasher and mcdonalds uniform.

Was there anything notable about these items or is the prosecution clutching at straws here? Seems to me that items were obviously discarded in the garden and bin before they left. The uncle is hardly going to treasure his uniform as a keepsake and pack it in his suitcase. And the jetwash may have been kept in the garden or perhaps it was used to waah blood stains from the soaking towels? Jetwashing a child's body seems both impractical and implausible (versus using a bathroom). Like, would it seriously cross anyone's mind to use a jetwash to clean a body?

IMO, it seems the prosecution are just rolling with Urfan's damaged credibility and reinforcing an image in the minds of the jurors, in the hope of security a guilty murder verdict. Hence the two narratives, with the defence emphasising his tears for his lost daughter and the prosecution alleging he jetwashed her body (thus emphasising his insensitivity over his treatment of Sara).

JMO

 

[FlamingLily]

Re: The jetwasher and mcdonalds uniform.

Was there anything notable about these items or is the prosecution clutching at straws here? Seems to me that items were obviously discarded in the garden and bin before they left. The uncle is hardly going to treasure his uniform as a keepsake and pack it in his suitcase. And the jetwash may have been kept in the garden or perhaps it was used to waah blood stains from the soaking towels? Jetwashing a child's body seems both impractical and implausible (versus using a bathroom). Like, would it seriously cross anyone's mind to use a jetwash to clean a body?

IMO, it seems the prosecution are just rolling with Urfan's damaged credibility and reinforcing an image in the minds of the jurors, in the hope of security a guilty murder verdict. Hence the two narratives, with the defence emphasising his tears for his lost daughter and the prosecution alleging he jetwashed her body (thus emphasising his insensitivity over his treatment of Sara).

JMO

The water pressure might cause bruising or edema on a fresh corpse, explaining or matching some of the coroner's dermal and tissue observations. Detectives and forensics early on the scene would have combed the grass for clues and seen depressions in the grass and maybe even suspected tainted wastewater. We don't know all the cards in their hands yet. The sharifs also might not have wanted body waste evidence clogging their drainpipes. JMO

 

[su5ie]

I thought there were total 9 people in the house?
So I would say room 1= Batool, Urfan, Baby. room 2= Twins, Sarah, + one Girl, then the small room 3= Malik and 13 yr old boy.
But however it was arranged, it makes me think that Sara must have been put in the outhouse regularly, otherwise the rest of the children and Malik, would have seen, heard, and known too much of what was happening to her, however they surely missed her and asked why?
Urfan has said that Sara's soiling herself was perhaps from being restrained and unable to get to the toilet - but if she were restrained indoors she might have shouted and screamed for the toilet?
If Sara were to be locked away, there is no other place to lock her that rest of the family did not use.
At some point Sara was sent to school, in full muslim clothing and headgear, in my opinion, simply to cover up her injuries and bruising after this 'normal' level of abuse became established in the household.
Having to lie to her school friends and teachers about the bruises and scratches they had noticed, then about her change to muslim dress, then to go home for additional abuse was surely too stressful for a 10 year old.
So perhaps it need not be surprising that she subsequently started vomiting and soiling herself to the extent that she had to wear nappies - or did something change at home?
For fear of medical intervention, she could no longer be sent to school in that state, and was suddenly withdrawn for 'home schooling'. That appears to be when the deadly abuse was let loose.

My feeling is that Batool's emails to her sister, made public, read more to me like a sharing of the experience of Sara's abuse than a call for help or concern from Batool's sister.
And the failure of the adults to ever get any help or medical treatment of any sort for Sara, or to remove Sara from danger, was not born of carelessness or neglect, or concern about the fate of the other children - but because those adults wanted the status quo to continue.

In one of the photos of the interior of the house there is a door to under the stairs (a cubby hole " I suspect Sara was threw in there this would provide a "sound proofing of sorts " to muffle the cries of pain . From evidence of the weapons being outside and blood being on those and a rope I think Sara was beaten in the outhouse .

There is no documentation that we have heard yet of blood splatter patterns and I suspect the jet wash was used to clean those after a beating .

I think not only was Sara hooded I also feel she may have had something put in her mouth to deafen a scream . This might explain why allegedly no one heard anything.



Why isn't bienash's siblings being brought before the courts??( genuine question )
Are they not guilty of allowing the death or allowing the abuse of a child by way of not calling authorities? I would have thought if you have full knowledge of a crime being committed you are complicate?
Similar to malik whom very little physical evidence has been presented thus far and its more he knew about the abuse and never got help ?

 

[Moll]

Re: The jetwasher and mcdonalds uniform.

Was there anything notable about these items or is the prosecution clutching at straws here? Seems to me that items were obviously discarded in the garden and bin before they left. The uncle is hardly going to treasure his uniform as a keepsake and pack it in his suitcase. And the jetwash may have been kept in the garden or perhaps it was used to waah blood stains from the soaking towels? Jetwashing a child's body seems both impractical and implausible (versus using a bathroom). Like, would it seriously cross anyone's mind to use a jetwash to clean a body?

IMO, it seems the prosecution are just rolling with Urfan's damaged credibility and reinforcing an image in the minds of the jurors, in the hope of security a guilty murder verdict. Hence the two narratives, with the defence emphasising his tears for his lost daughter and the prosecution alleging he jetwashed her body (thus emphasising his insensitivity over his treatment of Sara).

JMO

I don't think the prosecution need to 'clutch at straws'!
'Damaged credibility' is putting it mildly and the forensic evidence is overwhelming.

 

[PKFS]

I think the police have already confiscated the mobile phone of Batool's sisters and relatives and have loads of evidence of photos, conversations etc.

I wonder if U has any kids from his first wife in Pakistan?

 

[Dotta]

I don't think the prosecution need to 'clutch at straws'!
'Damaged credibility' is putting it mildly and the forensic evidence is overwhelming.

100 % agree.

And IMO,
knowing life,
the details of this macabre will never see the light of day.

And normal decent people cannot even imagine them.

What was the purpose of Sara's life?

Living in 1st world country,
she should have been blossoming
given all excellent opportunities it provides.

She was robbed of everything by primitive, vulgar monstrosities
who dare to laugh at the face of Human Society.

Women have fought for their rights, children have rights too.

But do these barbaric individuals even know this?
Or
did they crawl from under the stones?

JMO

 

[su5ie]

@Nikynoo can I ask you .Is there a chance bienash's sisters will be prosecuted for being aware of the level of violence but doing nothing. So in legal terms I suppose. Guilty of allowing the abuse of a child ?

 

[UK Girl]

@Nikynoo can I ask you .Is there a chance bienash's sisters will be prosecuted for being aware of the level of violence but doing nothing. So in legal terms I suppose. Guilty of allowing the abuse of a child ?

IMO they are basically accomplices

 

[Furore]

IMO it is unrealistic to imagine adults in that house not noticing Sara being beaten. Even in sizeable houses you’d hear it and if the kid had spinal fractures you have to imagine the force she was being hit with. Kids bones are quite elastic has more cartilaginous areas until growth plates fuse towards the end of puberty and force required for fractures is higher than for adults.

whatever the younger wife’s background she still knew right from wrong and failed to protect another human being.

I cannot imagine the pain this poor little girl went through - multiple burns etc all left untreated - bet not a single human in that house was kind to her or gave her painkillers.

Re the slapping video, I have seen it discussed previously that kids who are regularly abused do have unusual reactions to abuse as are often punished further for crying or “making a fuss”.

I know cold justice is an important part of our legal system but I can’t think of a term that befits these absolute monsters. Whether one did this to Sara, or watched it happen, it takes us to the heart of evil not to protect a child from torture.

 

[Nikynoo]

@Nikynoo can I ask you .Is there a chance bienash's sisters will be prosecuted for being aware of the level of violence but doing nothing. So in legal terms I suppose. Guilty of allowing the abuse of a child ?

They would have been arrested and charged by now if that was the case. Even if they did receive evidence of abuse, I do not believe that they are under a legal duty to report it.

 

[Nikynoo]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>I would think the only time a bystander could be culpable, would be if they are a police officer and failed to act (eg calling for assistance or making their presence known to the offender).

 

[su5ie]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed> I would think the only time a bystander could be culpable, would be if they are a police officer and failed to act (eg calling for assistance or making their presence known to the offender).

That is very interesting indeed @Nikynoo . That seems like a loophole in the justice system for accomplices of crimes . "Well your honor I was there but I didn't partake" .
What do you think ?

And does that not sum up maliks defence and bienash's for that matter if it cannot be proven they partook in the actual violence and could claim they were innocent bystanders powerless to do anything and are not under any legal obligations to act .?

I'm just really interested and these are genuine questions I'm asking you as you are in a better position to answer by your profession. Thank you for your input appreciate it

 

[FlamingLily]

100 % agree.

And IMO,
knowing life,
the details of this macabre will never see the light of day.

And normal decent people cannot even imagine them.

What was the purpose of Sara's life?

Living in 1st world country,
she should have been blossoming
given all excellent opportunities it provides.

She was robbed of everything by primitive, vulgar monstrosities
who dare to laugh at the face of Human Society.

Women have fought for their rights, children have rights too.

But do these barbaric individuals even know this?
Or
did they crawl from under the stones?

JMO

Something deeply depraved about a father striking his daughter in the stomach with a weapon. That little womb which should be protected til it bears him precious grandchildren oneday. Sara, first granddaughter in Urfan's family, future vessel of life. I'm wondering if any cricket bats cracked across his head when he was a child, loosening a few screws. Neglect is one kind of evil. But all the effort put into killing this fragile angel is beyond anything I can understand. I could weep forever.

 

[FlamingLily]

In one of the photos of the interior of the house there is a door to under the stairs (a cubby hole " I suspect Sara was threw in there this would provide a "sound proofing of sorts " to muffle the cries of pain . From evidence of the weapons being outside and blood being on those and a rope I think Sara was beaten in the outhouse .

There is no documentation that we have heard yet of blood splatter patterns and I suspect the jet wash was used to clean those after a beating .

I think not only was Sara hooded I also feel she may have had something put in her mouth to deafen a scream . This might explain why allegedly no one heard anything.



Why isn't bienash's siblings being brought before the courts??( genuine question )
Are they not guilty of allowing the death or allowing the abuse of a child by way of not calling authorities? I would have thought if you have full knowledge of a crime being committed you are complicate?
Similar to malik whom very little physical evidence has been presented thus far and its more he knew about the abuse and never got help ?

I see the understair door too. A child abuser's favourite. All neighbours of both properties reported constant daily rattling. Rattling, loud banging, doors shaking. Chains rattling. Perhaps timeouts for all kids and not just Sara? Surely if she was locked up often she'd give up banging (also for fear of being beaten for making a racket). But the toddlers might constantly bang to get out? JMO

 

[Rosydecember]

That is very interesting indeed @Nikynoo . That seems like a loophole in the justice system for accomplices of crimes . "Well your honor I was there but I didn't partake" .
What do you think ?

And does that not sum up maliks defence and bienash's for that matter if it cannot be proven they partook in the actual violence and could claim they were innocent bystanders powerless to do anything and are not under any legal obligations to act .?

I'm just really interested and these are genuine questions I'm asking you as you are in a better position to answer by your profession. Thank you for your input appreciate it

Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode… Good Samaritan law. Not sure if that’s recognized in all countries though?

 

[su5ie]

Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode… Good Samaritan law. Not sure if that’s recognized in all countries though?

These are two laws concerning "bystanders "

Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Duty to rescue - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Finale (Seinfeld) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[PoirotPink]

I don't think the prosecution need to 'clutch at straws'!
'Damaged credibility' is putting it mildly and the forensic evidence is overwhelming.

I was referring specifically to the items of the jetwasher and the uniform, that's why I asked the question regarding whether there were any findings related to these items. If there had been any forensic evidence to suggest the body was jetwashed or there was something incriminating about the uniform, the prosecution would have led with that evidence. Not least to make it clear to the jury what was being alleged and why. Since they didn't lead with forensic evidence, it suggests this theory was made up as an alternative narrative to the one Urfan gave in his oral evidence. I've said before, the British legal system is about narratives, not necessarily the truth.

Also, all oral evidence hinges on the assessment of its credibility (that's just the legal term). One way to adduce evidence, when there's no physical or forensic evidence available is to put the question to a witness. If the witness's credibility is already damaged, then you can potentially introduce unfavourable evidence in this way if there's a view that the jury is more likely to disbelieve the witness than believe them (even when there's no basis in truth). It's just a tactic in litigation.

I personally find the jetwasher theory and whatever's being implied by the uniform in the bin to be quite weak. Hence my clutching at straws comment. That's not a reflection on the case as a whole.

JMO

 

[Tealgrove]

I thought there were total 9 people in the house?
So I would say room 1= Batool, Urfan, Baby. room 2= Twins, Sarah, + one Girl, then the small room 3= Malik and 13 yr old boy.
But however it was arranged, it makes me think that Sara must have been put in the outhouse regularly, otherwise the rest of the children and Malik, would have seen, heard, and known too much of what was happening to her, however they surely missed her and asked why?
Urfan has said that Sara's soiling herself was perhaps from being restrained and unable to get to the toilet - but if she were restrained indoors she might have shouted and screamed for the toilet?
If Sara were to be locked away, there is no other place to lock her that rest of the family did not use.
At some point Sara was sent to school, in full muslim clothing and headgear, in my opinion, simply to cover up her injuries and bruising after this 'normal' level of abuse became established in the household.
Having to lie to her school friends and teachers about the bruises and scratches they had noticed, then about her change to muslim dress, then to go home for additional abuse was surely too stressful for a 10 year old.
So perhaps it need not be surprising that she subsequently started vomiting and soiling herself to the extent that she had to wear nappies - or did something change at home?
For fear of medical intervention, she could no longer be sent to school in that state, and was suddenly withdrawn for 'home schooling'. That appears to be when the deadly abuse was let loose.

My feeling is that Batool's emails to her sister, made public, read more to me like a sharing of the experience of Sara's abuse than a call for help or concern from Batool's sister.
And the failure of the adults to ever get any help or medical treatment of any sort for Sara, or to remove Sara from danger, was not born of carelessness or neglect, or concern about the fate of the other children - but because those adults wanted the status quo to continue.

Those who knew what was happening to Sarah are just as culpable as the ones who laid hands on her.

An anonymous call to Police may have sufficed but they chose to do nothing.

Their self serving silence aided the torturers in their continuous rampage of child abuse, violence and a steady march towards murder.

It sickens me. Absolutely sickens me to my core.

They all played a part in this and they all need to pay for their selfish and cruel silence.

They could have saved her but they chose not to. How sick is that?

MOO

 

[PoirotPink]

I thought there were total 9 people in the house?
So I would say room 1= Batool, Urfan, Baby. room 2= Twins, Sarah, + one Girl, then the small room 3= Malik and 13 yr old boy.
But however it was arranged, it makes me think that Sara must have been put in the outhouse regularly, otherwise the rest of the children and Malik, would have seen, heard, and known too much of what was happening to her, however they surely missed her and asked why?
Urfan has said that Sara's soiling herself was perhaps from being restrained and unable to get to the toilet - but if she were restrained indoors she might have shouted and screamed for the toilet?
If Sara were to be locked away, there is no other place to lock her that rest of the family did not use.
At some point Sara was sent to school, in full muslim clothing and headgear, in my opinion, simply to cover up her injuries and bruising after this 'normal' level of abuse became established in the household.
Having to lie to her school friends and teachers about the bruises and scratches they had noticed, then about her change to muslim dress, then to go home for additional abuse was surely too stressful for a 10 year old.
So perhaps it need not be surprising that she subsequently started vomiting and soiling herself to the extent that she had to wear nappies - or did something change at home?
For fear of medical intervention, she could no longer be sent to school in that state, and was suddenly withdrawn for 'home schooling'. That appears to be when the deadly abuse was let loose.

My feeling is that Batool's emails to her sister, made public, read more to me like a sharing of the experience of Sara's abuse than a call for help or concern from Batool's sister.
And the failure of the adults to ever get any help or medical treatment of any sort for Sara, or to remove Sara from danger, was not born of carelessness or neglect, or concern about the fate of the other children - but because those adults wanted the status quo to continue.

There are things about this case that make no sense with regards to Batool's involvement.

If it's the case that Urfan was beating Sara because she was soiling herself, and if Batool was genuinely concerned about the beatings, why did she have to tell Urfan about it? Wouldn't most female caregivers would just deal with the issue in private without making a big deal about it (which would embarrass the child further)? If a beating was going to follow then that's even more reason to not tell Urfan.

We still have no explanation for the screams heard from the house when Batool was the only adult at home. Batool's messages to her sister are also suspect, and we know that Batool was likely to be aware of the risk of losing her own children if anyone found out about the abuse. She said she was going to seek legal advice at one point. So she was involved in a deliberate cover-up. Again, if Urfan was responsible for all the abuse, then why did Batool continue to involve him in matters where she could easily stay silent and "keep the peace". He was out working for most of the day, and with school and bedtimes, it would have been easy to keep contact to a minimum. It would also be easy to warn Sara (if she was being disruptive or naughty) that her father would beat her if she didn't stop. Most kids would fall quickly into line with just the threat of facing a parent's anger.

JMO