UK - Scarlett Vickers (14) stabbed to death at home in Darlington. Parents charged with murder (5 July '24)

[jepop]

Well, at the risk of being wrong again - I don't think he'll be looking at much more than the bog standard starting point of 15 years, maybe a token uplift, with aggravating and mitigating factors more or less cancelling each other out. Probably very much to the outrage of many, but remember:

"The sentence is not a measure of the value put on the life of the victim."

as to the aggravating and mitigating factors (My assessments BBM):

Aggravating factors are things that make an offence even more serious and increase the minimum term. These
include:

• a significant degree of planning or premeditation; No
• the fact that the victim was particularly vulnerable because of age or disability; Somewhat. Scarlett was 14 years old, not 14 months
• mental or physical suffering inflicted on the victim before death; I've got to be honest. I don't really understand this part of the guidelines because I don't think it's really possible to be murdered without experiencing mental or physical suffering
• the abuse of a position of trust; Yes
• the use of duress or threats to enable the offence to take place; No
• the fact that the victim was providing a public service or performing a public duty; No
• concealing, destroying or dismembering the body. No

Mitigating factors are things that may reduce the minimum term. These include:

• an intention to cause serious bodily harm rather than to kill; probably not. This might be a hot topic of debate in the sentencing hearing
• lack of premeditation; yes
• the offender suffering from a mental disorder or mental disability which lowered his degree of blame; no
• the fact that the offender was provoked (for example, by prolonged stress); I don't think being called "a wimp" would qualify for this mitigation
• the fact that the offender acted to any extent in self-defence or in fear of violence; no
• a belief by the offender that the murder was an act of mercy; no
• the age of the offender. no

The main aggravating factor in this case (IMO) is not listed in this document, which is abuse of alcohol/drugs leading to the offending.

The main mitigating factor not listed in the document, is genuine remorse, lessened possibly by his "Not Guilty" plea. However, IMO, Simon Vickers grief for the loss of his daughter and his role in causing her death is genuine, even if a significant amount of his concern has undoubtedly been towards the criminal consequences of his actions when co-operating with law enforcement, and attempting to pervert the course of justice for his own benefit.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Murder-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf

IANAL
JMO

• mental or physical suffering inflicted on the victim before death; I've got to be honest. I don't really understand this part of the guidelines because I don't think it's really possible to be murdered without experiencing mental or physical suffering

II think this one might apply to deliberate callousness or tormenting before death either prior to inflicting the wound or after. If so, then imo this aggravating factor is likewise not present. There is evidence he tried to help his daughter after the stab wound was inflicted and no evidence he was committing mental or physical suffering on Scarlett before she was stabbed. Jmo

I agree he has shown genuine remorse. Jmo

 

[jepop]

It's possible for an accident to lead to a stabbing, but I just don't know about this case. It feels very off.

I wonder if the Halls were acting the way you would if an accident happened to your child when LE/paramedics arrived (both desperately trying to save her)?

I know this is somewhat of an old post, so apologies as I am just going back over the thread. As it turned out, imo, yes; evidence at trial showed that both parents were desperately trying to save her. And moo prosecution did not provide any evidence to suggest the desperation was not genuine. IIRC during the mum's call 911 (or equivalent number in UK) Simon Vickers can be heard shouting his daughter's name in the background in a distressed manner. Moo

However he did not learn that his daughter had died until some time after his arrival at the the police station for questioning. Jmo

 

[Tricia]

Remember these obnoxious type ads that were everywhere on Websleuths? You don't want them to return, right? If you could please subscribe to DNA Solves.com and make a monthly donation. Not only does this keep these awful ads off of Websleuths, but you are helping the families of the missing get the answers they deserve.
Find out how you can become a subscriber to DNA Solves.com by CLICKING HERE.
If you want to make a single donation, go to www.dnasolves.com and pick a case you would like to donate to.
Do not comment on this thread. CLICK HERE to ask questions and to learn more.
Thank you very much.

 

[JDG]

The violent history of father who killed daughter, 14, in 'playfight'

Simon Vickers, 50, from Darlington, County Durham was convicted of murdering his 14-year-old daughter Scarlett on Monday in what he claimed was a 'playfight' that went wrong.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Convictions going back 30+ years. Most are not discussed but will come to light at his sentencing.

Not his first rodeo. RIP Scarlett.

 

[JDG]

Well,
the verdict is murder.
So...
I'm not sure about minimum amount of years before parole in the UK for such a crime
but,
considering he is 50+
it might turn out to be a life sentence.

JMO

He’s looking at a life sentence IIRC.

Sure hope so…….theyll keep a pine box for him.

 

[iamshadow21]

The violent history of father who killed daughter, 14, in 'playfight'

Simon Vickers, 50, from Darlington, County Durham was convicted of murdering his 14-year-old daughter Scarlett on Monday in what he claimed was a 'playfight' that went wrong.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I think there area bunch of things I would be thinking and feeling had my child suddenly, tragically, died at my hand.

Complaining loudly that it's going to mess up my holiday plans wouldn't even be on the radar.

MOO

 

[MollyHarps]

The violent history of father who killed daughter, 14, in 'playfight'

Simon Vickers, 50, from Darlington, County Durham was convicted of murdering his 14-year-old daughter Scarlett on Monday in what he claimed was a 'playfight' that went wrong.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Convictions going back 30+ years. Most are not discussed but will come to light at his sentencing.

Not his first rodeo. RIP Scarlett.

I think this sheds new light on it - his wounding with intent charge shows he has history.

If this was known to the jury then I’m sure it would’ve resulted in a unanimous vote rather than 2 voting against (in some cases I think past history should be disclosed to the jury as it offers context to the persons character)

 

[Sarahlou]

The violent history of father who killed daughter, 14, in 'playfight'

Simon Vickers, 50, from Darlington, County Durham was convicted of murdering his 14-year-old daughter Scarlett on Monday in what he claimed was a 'playfight' that went wrong.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Convictions going back 30+ years. Most are not discussed but will come to light at his sentencing.

Not his first rodeo. RIP Scarlett.

There we go. This doesn't surprise me at all.
Once again, well done jury.

 

[Dotta]

There we go. This doesn't surprise me at all.
Once again, well done jury.

Such reckless behaviour doesn't appear out of the blue -
suddenly at the age of 50 IMO.
Poor impulse control, violence... and so on.

JMO

 

[callmehenry]

Such reckless behaviour doesn't appear out of the blue -
suddenly at the age of 50 IMO.
Poor impulse control, violence... and so on.

JMO

Drink and drugs probably lead to the poor impulse control etc IMO

 

[Dotta]

Drink and drugs probably lead to the poor impulse control etc IMO

Yep.
They didn't help, that's for sure!

 

[jepop]

I doubt a conviction for wounding with intent at age 19 will be deemed an aggravating factor at sentencing. Too long ago and prejudicial to tie to this trial. There is a reason the jury never heard about this. I doubt the prosecution would have even attempted to get this in ( obviously if they did, it was denied and as evidenced in the responses here it's easy to see why in terms of prejudice). Jmo

As to the other six convictions, this is the Daily Mail we're talking about here. I'm sure if they could get the dirt they would. Info may not be available because too long ago and have been expunged. Or they may not even be "convictions", or they may be convictions for something totally irrelevant like traffic tickets. Seriously Who knows. Moo

But it is predictably typical that the DM would sensationalise and assert a past history of violence as if ongoing, recent and relevant with the scantiest factual basis. Again I doubt the asserted six convictions (if they exist) will play any part in sentencing. Moo

The reporting on this case has been good by some outlets, where if anyone reads with an eye for the timeline regarding various parental statements and actually listens to or reads those statements in context, a realistic picture emerges. Jmo

Unfortunately the headlines and selectivenreporting of the larger outlets, such as the DM, specialise in juicy soundbites that have produced quite a few misconceptions surrounding the context in which statements were made and when they were made. Moo

For eg the footage from cop shop front desk is prior to the police interview, Vickers is in shock (moo), and he does not know that his daughter has died. Not sure why anyone who has actually watched the footage can't see that he is in shock and doesn't know what the eff just happened and what is going on. IMO

One thing he is not doing is "complaining" he can,'t go on holidays because his daughter is dead. This is asserted by a poster just up thread..

He doesn't know she is dead. He is saying all he wants to know is how she is. I see a person in disbelief, shock and confusion whose talk is subsequently rapid and disjointed. Just my unpopular opinion.

 

[Dotta]

But it is predictably typical that the DM would sensationalise and assert a past history of violence as if ongoing, recent and relevant with the scantiest factual basis. Again I doubt the asserted six convictions (if they exist) will play any part in sentencing. Moo

The reporting on this case has been good by some outlets, where if anyone reads with an eye for the timeline regarding various parental statements and actually listens to or reads those statements in context, a realistic picture emerges. Jmo

Unfortunately the headlines and selectivenreporting of the larger outlets, such as the DM, specialise in juicy soundbites that have produced quite a few misconceptions surrounding the context in which statements were made and when they were made. Moo

For eg the footage from cop shop front desk is prior to the police interview, Vickers is in shock (moo), and he does not know that his daughter has died. Not sure why anyone who has actually watched the footage can't see that he is in shock and doesn't know what the eff just happened and what is going on. IMO

One thing he is not doing is "complaining" he can,'t go on holidays because his daughter is dead. This is asserted by a poster just up thread..

He doesn't know she is dead. He is saying all he wants to know is how she is. I see a person in disbelief, shock and confusion whose talk is subsequently rapid and disjointed. Just my unpopular opinion.

I wouldn't blame DM for this guy's crimes
Journalists are doing their job.

Sensational headlines or not,
it doesn't change the fact this guy is not an angel as some would like to see him.

"Poor, full of remorse, just playing with his beloved daughter."
But....Oooops...the child is dead.

JMO

 

[Rusty Braincells]

I personally disagree that there has been any genuine, significant remorse that would move the needle in terms of sentencing, but perhaps the court has heard something I haven’t.

Whilst killing one’s own child in what should be the safety of her own home isn’t a statutory aggravating factor, it IS nevertheless a factual aggravating factor in this case. I cannot see the minimum sentence of 15 years being imposed here for that reason. Scarlett was entitled to feel safe in her home and was killed by someone who should have protected her.

The jury did not hear about the previous convictions as is customary of course so as not to affect their deliberations, but the judge knows about these, and I personally consider the wounding with intent to be relevant to sentencing. If a knife was involved, then it’s very relevant indeed. The judge will take into account the time gap, but bear in mind many people convicted of murder can in fact often point to no previous convictions at all in mitigation.

 

[jepop]

I wouldn't blame DM for this guy's crimes
Journalists are doing their job.

Sensational headlines or not,
it doesn't change the fact this guy is not an angel as some would like to see him.

"Poor, full of remorse, just playing with his beloved daughter."
But....Oooops...the child is dead.

JMO

",I wouldn't blame DM for this guy's crimes "

I'm not ! Was not the point of my post at all.

"Journalists are doing their job"

I disagree as regards the Daily Mail (in many cases btw not just this one, and even in cases where the DM slant may support my personal leanings,). I think that selective out of context reporting of parental statements.. by any outlet does not amount to journalists doing their job. Jmo

That was the point of my post and my comment that I doubt Vickers' conviction as a 19 year old will play a role in sentencing. Happy to say ICBW about this last. We shall see soon I guess. Jmo

Of course Vickers was convicted by a jury, not the media or social media. To the extent that the jury may or may not have believed and found the parents' evidentiary testimony credible, imo the ME evidence overrode that ( for 10 of the 12 jurors. Two of the jurors imo believed and found parents' evidence believable and credible. They must have decided the single stab wound was the result of a freak accident and convergence of circumstances in that small kitchen). All Moo

EBM for clarity

 

[callmehenry]

I doubt a conviction for wounding with intent at age 19 will be deemed an aggravating factor at sentencing. Too long ago and prejudicial to tie to this trial. There is a reason the jury never heard about this. I doubt the prosecution would have even attempted to get this in ( obviously if they did, it was denied and as evidenced in the responses here it's easy to see why in terms of prejudice). Jmo

As to the other six convictions, this is the Daily Mail we're talking about here. I'm sure if they could get the dirt they would. Info may not be available because too long ago and have been expunged. Or they may not even be "convictions", or they may be convictions for something totally irrelevant like traffic tickets. Seriously Who knows. Moo

But it is predictably typical that the DM would sensationalise and assert a past history of violence as if ongoing, recent and relevant with the scantiest factual basis. Again I doubt the asserted six convictions (if they exist) will play any part in sentencing. Moo

The reporting on this case has been good by some outlets, where if anyone reads with an eye for the timeline regarding various parental statements and actually listens to or reads those statements in context, a realistic picture emerges. Jmo

Unfortunately the headlines and selectivenreporting of the larger outlets, such as the DM, specialise in juicy soundbites that have produced quite a few misconceptions surrounding the context in which statements were made and when they were made. Moo

For eg the footage from cop shop front desk is prior to the police interview, Vickers is in shock (moo), and he does not know that his daughter has died. Not sure why anyone who has actually watched the footage can't see that he is in shock and doesn't know what the eff just happened and what is going on. IMO

One thing he is not doing is "complaining" he can,'t go on holidays because his daughter is dead. This is asserted by a poster just up thread..

He doesn't know she is dead. He is saying all he wants to know is how she is. I see a person in disbelief, shock and confusion whose talk is subsequently rapid and disjointed. Just my unpopular opinion.

Completely agree with your point about the holiday comment. I feel that was taken out of context by the media.

 

[Dotta]

"Mother of a 14-year-old girl murdered by her father 'in a playfight'
is standing by him as family claim it was
'definitely an accident'."

Mum of girl, 14, murdered by father 'in playfight' is standing by him

Simon Vickers, 50, is facing a life sentence after being found guilty of murdering his only child, Scarlett, in the family's home in Darlington, County Durham.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Yellowbelly]

"Mother of a 14-year-old girl murdered by her father 'in a playfight'
is standing by him as family claim it was
'definitely an accident'."

View attachment 561988

Mum of girl, 14, murdered by father 'in playfight' is standing by him

Simon Vickers, 50, is facing a life sentence after being found guilty of murdering his only child, Scarlett, in the family's home in Darlington, County Durham.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The pathologist showed the knife was being held when it entered Scarlett and the evidence from the paramedics showed that Vickers was holding it when they arrived. If it was an accident, then tell the truth about the accident, rather than coming up with a story that's clearly a tissue of lies in order to try and get off scot free.

 

[Sarahlou]

"Mother of a 14-year-old girl murdered by her father 'in a playfight'
is standing by him as family claim it was
'definitely an accident'."

View attachment 561988

Mum of girl, 14, murdered by father 'in playfight' is standing by him

Simon Vickers, 50, is facing a life sentence after being found guilty of murdering his only child, Scarlett, in the family's home in Darlington, County Durham.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I don't like how the Mail are using that as their main picture for the story and making people think that's Scarlett's mother. That's her gran.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

In another development, Sarah Hall's mother, Elaine Hall, has disclosed their intent to challenge the conviction. The 65 year old expressed to MailOnline her conviction that the death of Scarlett was accidental.

The woman stated: "If Sarah thought he had done anything to her, she'd have been out of there," "It's definitely just been an accident because there's no way he would have harmed her."

'Rapid' safeguarding review carried out following death of Scarlett Vickers

Scarlett Vickers was stabbed to death by her father Simon Vickers at the family home in Darlington

www.gazettelive.co.uk