UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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  • #241
I agree with you - CV wouldn’t of done the things he did do if he was planning to kill Suzy that afternoon.
In all of this it’s assumed that CV planned to kill SJL. Depending on the diary content he may have thought he might be able take advantage of her. DV indicated in his book that her death may have been accidental.
Agree CV couldn’t have known who SJL told where she was going, and it therefore makes sence to move her car to Fulham.
This would tend to result in (what actually happened) the police concentrating efforts on this area and not Putney.
As has been said in thread 1 maybe CV assumed SJL was on the game and thought he’d get a freebie.
I can imagine that SJL would have reacted with vigour to this suggestion and her accidental death resulted.
The PoW would have been empty at this point, stock take over and not reopening until 5.00pm. CV’s partner must have been out for this scenario to unfold, and only discovered what happened when she got back.
SJL’s car could have been left in Stevenage Road at around 2.00pm (more likely a little later), this being done by the “James Galway man”.
Like everything in this case it’s all conjecture and the only true facts we have are that SJL left the office at around 12.40 pm and her car was found in Stevenage Road at approximately 10.00 pm.
In any case the police have to make assumptions and then work on possible scenarios, if they have few actual facts this is the only way to make pregress.
 
  • #242
So we have a Barman who reads her diary and decides to try it on and she ends up dead?!
 
  • #243
So we have a Barman who reads her diary and decides to try it on and she ends up dead?!
It’s as good as any other theory and probably what DV thinks happened. He hints as such in his book when he says it might have been an accident.
The JC did it has just as much evidence as the CV one, which is basically none at all. That’s the problem when someone disappears without trace. You only have theories based on what might have happened.
 
  • #244
It’s as good as any other theory and probably what DV thinks happened. He hints as such in his book when he says it might have been an accident.
The JC did it has just as much evidence as the CV one, which is basically none at all. That’s the problem when someone disappears without trace. You only have theories based on what might have happened.



LE obviously must have more on JC than we know as they won’t listen to DV evidence and the family also have zero interest in DV.

So I am not convinced it’s JC but the fact the police did digs as late as 2019 would suggest they know a lot more than us on why they are so convinced it’s him.
 
  • #245
LE obviously must have more on JC than we know as they won’t listen to DV evidence and the family also have zero interest in DV.

So I am not convinced it’s JC but the fact the police did digs as late as 2019 would suggest they know a lot more than us on why they are so convinced it’s him.
JC doesn’t have a history of burying his victims, he seems attracted to water. So the Gallows Bridge witness how saw Mr Kipper throw a large bag in the canal makes more sence.
But as time passes these witnesses pass on and can’t be interviewed, so the validity of his story can’t be checked.
 
  • #246
@asyousay

Perhaps these digs show that the police do not in fact have anything else on JC, and are an attempt to get more. All they've got is that they think he looks a bit like a bloke seen (with someone who may have been SJL) by someone who later imagined and retracted an abduction in the street; that he was one of 30 or so rapists recently released from the Scrubs; that he faked a plate that some people think vaguely refers to SJL; and that it's the sort of thing he'd do. Whatever the police do have on him must have been presented to the CPS and found inadequate, so the only way they're going to get evidence is by finding her at a location that associates her with him.

DV suggests the police did the digs because they found out he was reinvestigating the case freelance and they wanted to refix JC's guilt into the public consciousness. They may also have done this to ensure that the Parole Board doesn't let him out this year.

@Terryb808

If we pick apart DV's book, he broadly seems to me to reason as follows.

SJL did not go to 37SR for several reasons. One, he car was never seen there; two, she was never seen there; three, she took no keys to the house; four, no Mr Kipper was known to Sturgis; five, he has an idea where the made-up name came from; and six, she had another errand to run.

She went instead to the PoW, the only other plausible destination. She is knows to have lost stuff there, apparently borne out by several members of the pub's staff - CV, his wife, the permanent landlord.

I'm with him so far, but it now begins to go a bit haywire.

First, we have no idea and DV offers no suggestions as to who she was with when she lost her stuff at the pub. We know it wasn't AL because she spoke to him on the phone, meaning he was elsewhere. That evening the relief landlord found her stuff. Next day he and perhaps others spoke to her, depending on when her bank put her in touch with the pub and who was around when she called. But the relief landlord maintains she never arrived. DV changes the relief manager's name to "Clive Vole" and then concludes she died at the pub, possibly by accident. He now wants a forensic search of the pub.

The permanent manager and his wife were gone for two weeks before SJL even left her office. The other people at the pub were CV, his partner, and a cellarman. The cellarman is not mentioned and CV's wife totally refuses to engage with DV. The inference one tends unavoidably to draw is that CV knows something about this.

However, DV gives no motive at all for CV to kill her. He would have to be a reflexive sex attacker who read the diary, decided it could be traded rather than given back, and gets her to the pub intending to proposition her. He's thought all this up from scratch based simply on finding the diary - there's no evidence he even knew what she looked like at that point. When she turns up and she's quite the babe, he duly tries it on with her, she fights back and he then kills and hides her.

This scenario calls for serious thinking on his feet. First of all, where are his partner and the cellarman during all this? Next, he's got to hide her body. But he's also got to get rid of her car because he can't have this found near the pub. He has her Ford car key, but all 1980s Ford keys looked the same, Ford had a 30% UK market share, so hers could be any of maybe 40 or 50 Fords parked within however many nearby streets. So first he has to find her car. Then he has to get rid of it and get back without anyone noticing his absence. Then he has to act normal.

It would surely be far safer to fake an accident. I was washing some glasses when she arrived, and my hands were wet, officer, so I said If you pop down those stairs, love, your stuff's on the fuse box...then there was a crash, see, and she'd fallen. It's so upsetting, officer. That's why I'm so sweaty and uncomfortable.

If this was an accident, on what planet is hiding it the reflexive and best course? You cover it up by concealing her body on or near the premises and denying she was ever there? If you're CV and this is what you're thinking about doing, what about the several people who probably knew she was headed there? There's CV's partner, possibly; the permanent landlord and his wife; the cellarman; the staff at the bank; colleagues at her office who either overheard the calls, or whom SJL told where she was going. How do you persuade these people to forget she was headed there? Why don't you just say, there's been an accident?

In either case, there is the matter of the other phone calls to the pub. CV knew for sure that two people knew that SJL was headed there, but they didn't know when. If you've killed her or you intend to, what if these people turn up looking for her? And why did those two callers never get in touch with the police to say, I know where she was really going?

What we are left with is that up to seven people knew SJL was heading for that pub: the regular landlord, his wife, CV, CV's partner, the cellarman, and the two callers. The first two had left before she could have got there. CV knew she was coming because he spoke to her. He volunteered as much to the police at the time and to DV recently so he doesn't appear to be hiding anything. We don't know about the other four. DV was not able to speak to CV's partner but she behaved very oddly; the cellarman is not even mentioned; and the two mystery callers are just that.

I conclude we need to know more about what CV's partner saw and knew, and who the callers could have been.
 
  • #247
JC doesn’t have a history of burying his victims, he seems attracted to water. So the Gallows Bridge witness how saw Mr Kipper throw a large bag in the canal makes more sence.
But as time passes these witnesses pass on and can’t be interviewed, so the validity of his story can’t be checked.

Personally I'm profoundly sceptical of these reports by people claiming to have seen Mr Kipper. I say that not because I think he never existed (which is what I do think), but because this supposed resemblance between the Mr Kipper sketch and JC is entirely in the eye of the beholder. It was never validated by, for example, putting JC in an identity parade to see if HR or anyone else could pick him out. A control on such an identity parade would be to do another that did not include JC to see if anyone picked somebody else out.
 
  • #248
Personally I'm profoundly sceptical of these reports by people claiming to have seen Mr Kipper. I say that not because I think he never existed (which is what I do think), but because this supposed resemblance between the Mr Kipper sketch and JC is entirely in the eye of the beholder. It was never validated by, for example, putting JC in an identity parade to see if HR or anyone else could pick him out. A control on such an identity parade would be to do another that did not include JC to see if anyone picked somebody else out.
At the time he said he say the mythical Mr Kipper it was 5am Thursday morning. He was supposed to have traveled to JC’s trial to confirm he was the one he saw that morning.
Sadly this is all secondhand and ex detective JD checked his story, but found no record at Brentford police station that he reported his sighting.
According to police they did not dredge the canal because they’d already done so as part of another investigation.
So this witness (if we believe him) saw someone dump a large heavy bag in the canal and convinced himself that it was JC.
The police identikit picture looks like lots of men, so no surprise it looks vaguely like JC.
I’m not a JC did it advocate, just wanted to point out the burying his victims was not his style.
 
  • #249
Thanks. JC's trial took place in April 1989, nearly three years after SJL disappeared. So this bloke who supposedly attended it to "verify" that it was JC he had seen at 5am had not heard of JC until late 1988 when he was arrested, had not heard of any connection to SJL until after the trial, yet made such a connection himself and, three years later, was able to remember the face of someone he had seen for how long, a few seconds?

It's nonsense, isn't it?

The photofit looks uncannily like Nicolas Cage to me.

Nicolas Cage:
https://i2-prod.dailystar.co.uk/inc...615b/1_Suzy-Lamplugh-missing-estate-agent.jpg

Mr Kipper:
https://cdna.artstation.com/p/asset...silcutei-tbrender-viewport-095.jpg?1615299136

Does NC have an alibi??
 
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  • #250
Thanks. JC's trial took place in April 1989, nearly three years after SJL disappeared. So this bloke who supposedly attended it to "verify" that it was JC he had seen at 5am had not heard of JC until late 1988 when he was arrested, had not heard of any connection to SJL until after the trial, yet made such a connection himself and, three years later, was able to remember the face of someone he had seen for how long, a few seconds?

It's nonsense, isn't it?

The photofit looks uncannily like Nicolas Cage to me.

Nicolas Cage:
https://i2-prod.dailystar.co.uk/inc...615b/1_Suzy-Lamplugh-missing-estate-agent.jpg

Mr Kipper:
https://cdna.artstation.com/p/asset...silcutei-tbrender-viewport-095.jpg?1615299136

Does NC have an alibi??
I couldn’t agree more, this supposed witness was found by the Mets JD to support his obsession that JC did it.
After he made this public I checked with the River Trust (Gallows Bridge is on the river Brent). They were very helpful and confirmed that the area was dredged every 5 years (back then) and that in those days it would be dumped at a suitable location at the side of the canal. Now any dredged material has to be taken away.
I also checked the depth and it is slightly deeper that a normal canal. Anyway from this I concluded that depending on exactly where this large bag was dumped, it would have caused some issues for passing traffic.
Also I looked at the time it would take for the bag material to degrade, this is a difficult one, but I don’t think anything would remain today.
In summary I don’t think this witness statement holds up.
 
  • #251
@Terryb808

Indeed, and of course this bloke is basically saying that when in 1988 JC's photo appears in the paper as the suspect in the Shirley Banks murder, he immediately connected JC with the SJL case, and he further remembered, to the exact day and hour, seeing this person by a canal two years previously. If his memory's that good, he must be able to remember literally every face and event that's ever featured in his whole life. If you asked me where I was and who I saw on a random day two years ago, I would have no idea. This sighting is up there with people who suddenly after a lapse of 14 years remembered they'd seen someone in a black BMW in Shorrolds Road on Monday 28 July 1986. Even if those sightings were actually true they acquit rather than implicate JC because he didn't have a black BMW in 1986.

Another point re CV occurs to me. We have speculated that maybe he had the idea, having found and read her diary, of using it against her. The trouble with this is simply that if he had anything malicious in mind, he had no way of knowing when she'd turn up or in what circumstances. What if she turned up to collect her diary with AL? One evening later in the week, when the pub's busy? What if the pub is teeming with people when she shows up? What if there's one person around, eg his partner?

It doesn't really add up. The reasoning that, as there is severe doubt she ever went to 37SR, she went to the PoW instead, adds up and makes sense. As she has not been seen since, then inferentially, if she went to the PoW, she never left. Hence you would want to search the last place she might very well have gone.

But joining the dots like this still leaves you without a motive for anyone to kill her, or to cover up an accident to her - and why would you cover it up unless it looked like you killed her? If she did go to the PoW, then what happened there is known by one or more of the handful of people who knew she was going there. Given that CV was the acting landlord, it's quite hard to see how he could not know what happened, but of course he has always maintained she never turned up at all.

LSW suggested above that the phone calls to the pub give CV an alibi that prove he was there all day. This is surely true only up to a point though. For this to work as an alibi, doesn't he have to say who the calls were from, and don't the callers have to be traced and confirm that they called when he said? And of course neither caller has been identified.
 
  • #252
The problem is nobody knows where she went after she left her office. For all anybody knows she was bundled into the car at Whittingstall Road.


If DV is correct and nobody can positively identify her at Shorrolds Road then all we actually know is she left the office at 12.40. Then she vanished at some stage.



Also Does anybody have photos of the POW pub from 1986? I am intrigued to see what the outside layout was and where she may of misplaced her bag.
 
  • #253
Indeed. If she was bundled into a car in Whittingstall Road, all bets are off, although the question then arises as to how her car got from Whittingstall to Stevenage.

I' ve tried Googling "old photographs Putney" to see if there are any views of the pub from way back but have had no luck; also, the PoW changed sites in the past so a very old photo would show a different building.
 
  • #254
Indeed. If she was bundled into a car in Whittingstall Road, all bets are off, although the question then arises as to how her car got from Whittingstall to Stevenage.

I' ve tried Googling "old photographs Putney" to see if there are any views of the pub from way back but have had no luck; also, the PoW changed sites in the past so a very old photo would show a different building.


Yes I tried google and couldn’t see anything either :)


It’s such a frustrating case as for facts we literally know she left the office and then it’s anybody guess. I hope DV is correct just because it would solve the case.
 
  • #255
Yes I tried google and couldn’t see anything either :)


It’s such a frustrating case as for facts we literally know she left the office and then it’s anybody guess. I hope DV is correct just because it would solve the case.
 

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  • #256
Found this picture (which I have uploaded above). Not sure if the 80’s as not the traditional red phone box (When did the modern ones start appearing ?)This picture has a fence around it also.
 
  • #257
Found this picture (which I have uploaded above). Not sure if the 80’s as not the traditional red phone box (When did the modern ones start appearing ?)This picture has a fence around it also.

Interesting. Inevitably, there's a whole website for people who are interested in old phone boxes, according to which the one in that photo appears to be a Type K100/2 phone box:

The mid-1980s saw the introduction of the KX100 range of modern kiosks, the last built for what was now BT. With large glass panes and clean lines they looked very similar to the K7 of the 1960s and variants were produced with new ideas such as access for wheelchair users.
So this dates that photo to not much later than the mid-1980s. Depending on how much later, the pub could have changed since 1986, but I doubt by very much. Nobody's going to put an extension onto the front, for example, then demolish it.

Probably the layout was the same in 1986. In particular I doubt the phone kiosk would have moved, because that would entail moving the phone and power cabling, nor the fence, because pubs get in trouble if the punters spill over the pavement. So SJL and A N Other sit at an outside table to the right of the main door. To make her phone call she had to get up and walk 9 or 10 steps. While doing so she can't see her bag.
 
  • #258
Interesting. Inevitably, there's a whole website for people who are interested in old phone boxes, according to which the one in that photo appears to be a Type K100/2 phone box:

The mid-1980s saw the introduction of the KX100 range of modern kiosks, the last built for what was now BT. With large glass panes and clean lines they looked very similar to the K7 of the 1960s and variants were produced with new ideas such as access for wheelchair users.
So this dates that photo to not much later than the mid-1980s. Depending on how much later, the pub could have changed since 1986, but I doubt by very much. Nobody's going to put an extension onto the front, for example, then demolish it.

Probably the layout was the same in 1986. In particular I doubt the phone kiosk would have moved, because that would entail moving the phone and power cabling, nor the fence, because pubs get in trouble if the punters spill over the pavement. So SJL and A N Other sit at an outside table to the right of the main door. To make her phone call she had to get up and walk 9 or 10 steps. While doing so she can't see her bag.
Makes me wonder if someone lifted her things at this point?
What would be interesting is interior photos showing the raised area DV refers to as above the void.
How much higher was it than it is today, also how much work would it have taken to lower it?
I find it incredible that workman could take up the floor, lower it and not disturb what’s below!
 
  • #259
It’s such a frustrating case as for facts we literally know she left the office and then it’s anybody guess. I hope DV is correct just because it would solve the case.

You really would think that the police would routinely search anywhere she might have gone, even if just to be thorough. They seem to have been so mesmerised by the Mr Kipper story that they made a point of not doing so.

Something else occurs to me looking at that photo, which is that there appear to be several entrances to the pub. Could SJL have turned up there without anyone knowing she'd arrived? If the police had DV's view of the world, and wanted to get CV's permission to search the pub, that might be a pretext for doing so: they could that if they could bring the dogs into the pub, they might work out if she'd been there lately. If he says No they go to a judge for a search warrant and say they think her body could be there.
 
  • #260
You really would think that the police would routinely search anywhere she might have gone, even if just to be thorough. They seem to have been so mesmerised by the Mr Kipper story that they made a point of not doing so.

Something else occurs to me looking at that photo, which is that there appear to be several entrances to the pub. Could SJL have turned up there without anyone knowing she'd arrived? If the police had DV's view of the world, and wanted to get CV's permission to search the pub, that might be a pretext for doing so: they could that if they could bring the dogs into the pub, they might work out if she'd been there lately. If he says No they go to a judge for a search warrant and say they think her body could be there.
Regarding the police, they hear but don’t listen, maybe this will change later in 2022, a very important year for JC.
 
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