UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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  • #721
Why did MG not push more with the idea she very plausibly could have headed elsewhere?

We tend to trust the judgement of the police. After all they are privy to all the available information.

Within 48 hrs the national news was showing the artist's impression of Mr Kipper. The man who lured SL away from SR, was on the cover of every paper.

Perhaps MG then concluded that SL must have had a lunchtime viewing at SR, despite what was known to him ...

Has there ever been another case of such unfortunate occurances as this one?
 
  • #722
Why did MG not push more with the idea she very plausibly could have headed elsewhere?

We tend to trust the judgement of the police. After all they are privy to all the available information.

Within 48 hrs the national news was showing the artist's impression of Mr Kipper. The man who lured SL away from SR, was on the cover of every paper.

Perhaps MG then concluded that SL must have had a lunchtime viewing at SR, despite what was known to him ...

Has there ever been another case of such unfortunate occurances as this one?
 
  • #723
We tend to trust the judgement of the police. After all they are privy to all the available information.

Within 48 hrs the national news was showing the artist's impression of Mr Kipper. The man who lured SL away from SR, was on the cover of every paper.

Perhaps MG then concluded that SL must have had a lunchtime viewing at SR, despite what was known to him ...

Has there ever been another case of such unfortunate occurances as this one?
I can think of 2, Claudia Lawrence & Leah Croucher.
While not identical, they both disappeared without trace.
 
  • #724
There are lots that are similar if not identical.

Rachel Nickell, Colin Stagg / Robert Napper; a similar fiasco. The police fixated on the wrong man, repeatedly tried to frame him, sulkily refused to concede error when he was acquitted and insinuated that the court had got it wrong, and meanwhile, the actual killer was left at liberty for another 16 years to kill several others.

Stefan Kiszko: three police officers suppressed evidence that proved he could not have killed Lesley Molseed in 1975, so he was convicted, and did 16 years before his conviction was overturned. He died two years after release. The real killer was convicted 31 years after LM's death and was at liberty throughout.

Yorkshire Ripper: West Yorkshire Police tried repeatedly to frame a local minicab driver, Terry Hawkshaw. Eventually Sutcliffe was caught by beat officers from another force.

The Brmingham Six, the Guildford Four, the Bridgwater Four....there are actually lots. In a way the SJL case is not as bad as some, because at least the guy they are trying to frame this time is a genuine villain who should never get out. Of course the actual perp could have been up to anything these last 36 years.
 
  • #725
Food for thought there Westlondoner ....
 
  • #726
There are lots that are similar if not identical.

Rachel Nickell, Colin Stagg / Robert Napper; a similar fiasco. The police fixated on the wrong man, repeatedly tried to frame him, sulkily refused to concede error when he was acquitted and insinuated that the court had got it wrong, and meanwhile, the actual killer was left at liberty for another 16 years to kill several others.

Stefan Kiszko: three police officers suppressed evidence that proved he could not have killed Lesley Molseed in 1975, so he was convicted, and did 16 years before his conviction was overturned. He died two years after release. The real killer was convicted 31 years after LM's death and was at liberty throughout.

Yorkshire Ripper: West Yorkshire Police tried repeatedly to frame a local minicab driver, Terry Hawkshaw. Eventually Sutcliffe was caught by beat officers from another force.

The Brmingham Six, the Guildford Four, the Bridgwater Four....there are actually lots. In a way the SJL case is not as bad as some, because at least the guy they are trying to frame this time is a genuine villain who should never get out. Of course the actual perp could have been up to anything these last 36 years.
Robert Napper could have been responsible for the murder of Penny Bell.
It’s off his patch, but the severity of the attack fits his MO. Again no headway made by the police, when the murder took place mid morning in broad daylight in a busy leisure centre car park.
 
  • #727
It was the anniversary there of Jill Dando's murder, a crime not too far away from the SL locations.

And another case of the police going for the wrong man.
 
  • #728
I've vague recollections too of Barry George being linked to SLs disappearance in the press, after he was convicted of JDs murder ....

I think it was reported that he lived a few streets away from the Sturgis office!?
 
  • #729
Barry George's Flat

Obviously he may have not been residing there 13 years prior to that in 1986.
 
  • #730
I've vague recollections too of Barry George being linked to SLs disappearance in the press, after he was convicted of JDs murder ....

I think it was reported that he lived a few streets away from the Sturgis office!?

I'm not really sure what to make of that kind of link. It amounts to speculation that this unsolved crime might have been committed by that bloke, because he's a criminal, but with nil evidence. It is actually less persuasive than the idea that JC might have murdered SJL, because JC actually is a convicted rapist and murderer, whereas Barry George is not. The entire case against him, IIRC, was that a speck of gunpowder residue was found on his coat, but it could have been cross-contamination; and that he was the local weirdo. If all else fails, the police fit up the local weirdo.

The McCann case shows it's not just Her Majesty's Plod that does this. The Portuguese plod accused the parents of murdering their child on the grounds that they found her DNA in a car the parents rented three weeks after she disappeared. This would mean they murdered her, hid the body, alerted the police, attracted the world's attention to themselves, and then moved the body weeks later during a Portuguese summer.

It was clearly rubbish, but the Portuguese police investigation was leisurely, inept, and going nowhere. To prove what sleuths they were they needed to accuse someone. So they accused the parents despite the nonsensical sequence of events this entailed. Meanwhile, they weren't looking for the real abductor. To do so would amount to an admission that their suspects might actually not have done it. So the trail was allowed to get cold. Familiar, no?

Lesley Molseed's murderer being charged after 31 years gives some grounds to hope that SJL's may also be found and charged but for now the police seem determined to prevent this. Saving police face is evidently more important than catching killers.
 
  • #731
I'm not really sure what to make of that kind of link. It amounts to speculation that this unsolved crime might have been committed by that bloke, because he's a criminal, but with nil evidence.

Say Barry George was still behind bars today, having been convicted of the JD murder.

You could easily envisage a 'Jill Dando Killer Stalked Suzy Too' headline in the press.

With a quotes from an experts, statements from witnesses etc all pointing towards his 'guilt'.
 
  • #732
When you look at this logically, there can't be that many places SJL could have gone or that many people she could have been going to see during a quick lunch break. We know she drove somewhere. We know her car was later that same day abandoned by someone who wasn't her. So she drove somewhere, left her car, something happened to her inside either another car or more likely a premises, and then someone involved drove her car probably from that place (because the location of her car had to point to the location the event happened, i.e. to the person who did it, so by this logic find out where she went and you find out who did it. The location incriminates him).

There was no blood on the car and we assume the car was abandoned in daylight (it was summer) so there was no blood on whoever did it, which makes sense if he was able to go and abandon a car in broad daylight and walk away from the scene without attracting attention. If he had blood on him after whatever happened, he had time to change and wash. The timings all suggest that whatever happened, happened very soon after she left the office and got to wherever she was going. The person who abandoned the car did it in a hurry leaving the car parked not very neatly and the door unlocked. They were wearing gloves, wiped the steering wheel and gear stick, or they were someone who was regularly in the car so knew their fingerprints would not matter (do we know if there was evidence the car was wiped down?) The person who abandoned the car attracted zero attention from anyone in the street, no one saw him getting out of it, no one mentioned a man walking on the road, not the neighbour who says she was out and about and observant enough to notice the car and not the two engineers working in the road, so I reckon it was parked after they'd gone, since if you were abandoning the car of your murder victim you would not choose a place next to some nosey workmen (I don't trust the neighbour's sighting as her timing makes no sense unless SJL met someone at her car near Sturgis and he drove her to Stevenage Road, but then how come no one saw her and him there?)

The event can't have taken place that far away i.e. it must have been in south London given the timings. SJL wasn't planning on driving a long way. If the perpetrator carjacked her and drove her away from the area why would he return to in her car and drive it to Stevenage Road? You could dump it anywhere, why there? Because it was a quiet dead end street with no thru traffic or pedestrians (when he dumped it). He didn't want to be seen or attract attention and it wasn't that far from the events, so he didn't have far to get back to wherever he came from, but it was far enough to point away from him.

So yeah, I believe the likelihood is that SJL went somewhere not that far away that wasn't Shorrolds in her car, parked outside, went inside somewhere, something happened, and whoever did it was aware she had come in a car, and knew which was her car, and quickly moved her car to a location that would not implicate him. Most likely she either went to see a man she was seeing, and there was some pressing reason for her to do so, or she went to the pub to get her stuff because she needed her diary for phone numbers, reminders, anything and didn't want it hanging in some pub all day. The pub was important to her enough for her to talk about it to her colleagues at Sturgis, or maybe to SF or whoever she had the smoke break with.
 
  • #733
Complete and thorough summary. Agree 100%. She was expected back within the normal duration of a viewing so she could not have been headed anywhere more than about 20 minutes away.

At one point, I did wonder if she went somewhere for an afternoon quickie with one of the fan club. Or for a job interview. Or for an appointment at the STD clinic, or to have a coil fitted. Any of those are things she wouldn't share and would conceal. The last three would all be arranged though, and would require a longer absence than the fake diary entry would explain. So surely she'd book time off for those.

The first is possible, but requires lover boy to live nearby, or for her to meet him back at hers for maybe ten minutes of quality time. What argues against this is that we know she had other errands to run. Her life was also compartmentalised and carefully managed; her colleagues said afterwards they did not know her as well as they had thought. It seems too out of character to be likely.

Which as Konstantin says does not leave a very long list of places she could have gone.

Another thing about the perp: he doesn't care if the police retrieve her diary because it does not lead to him. So this is someone who's not in it. This sort of points to CV, but conversely, is also something that points away from him. He would surely have assumed that SJL would have told someone where she was going. If he kills her there's likely to be a search party there within a few hours. This suggests mishap rather than premeditation.
 
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  • #734
Well, here's the thing. If she had a job interview, or a medical appointment, then given the high profile nature of the case I would expect the company or the doctor to contact the police and say, we were expecting her and she never turned up.

But no one did.

She only expected to be out of the office a short time, she didn't take her bag (makeup, pocket mirror, hairbrush, feminine hygiene stuff, etc), just her purse (so she was planning to buy something when she was out, a sandwich?). If she'd gone to meet someone special, you'd expect her to take her bag to check how she looked before she met them. And if she was out meeting a bloke she'd have to do that inside somewhere to avoid having a colleague see her out and about with a chap.

Key or no key I find it hard to believe in Mr Kipper because as a strategy to rape/murder a random woman you've seen in a shop window by arranging a house viewing in the middle of the day on a Monday when people are out and about at lunchtime is a terrible idea. So I don't think she went to a house viewing. Most likely something came up that morning where she had to go out and do something. We know something came up that morning--she found out her missing diary was at her local pub. Her office knew about it. The pub temp landlord and his wife knew about it.

The only reason to move her car is because it was outside the place where she went inside. Why else move it?

Whoever she met, if she didn't go to the pub, might have known she made a fake house viewing to dash out and see him inside somewhere. So maybe whoever did it thought she was doing the viewing in Stevenage road and left the car there to make it seem she did go there. (I doubt it though, I think they knew it was a dead end road and a quiet place to dump the car. Or they only realised it was a no through road when they got there and so had to leave it there. If the former, we are looking at someone who is familiar with the area.)

There is really not that much choice for where she was going is there? The pub, or a meeting with a person who no one knew about, because he was a secret. Wherever it was she went, no one she knew saw her go there.
 
  • #735
If she had a job interview, or a medical appointment, then given the high profile nature of the case I would expect the company or the doctor to contact the police

Yes, quite. Not only did the diary entry leave her insufficient time for any such errand, but if that had been where she went, whoever was expecting her would have been in touch to say so.

...she didn't take her bag (makeup, pocket mirror, hairbrush, feminine hygiene stuff, etc), just her purse (so she was planning to buy something when she was out, a sandwich?). If she'd gone to meet someone special, you'd expect her to take her bag to check how she looked before she met them

Agree again. Women carry handbags in the first place because hairbrushes, make-up and hygiene. These items don't fit into your clothes' pockets. The fact of just the purse implies not an assignation but a short routine errand, on which she'd need nothing that was left behind in the handbag.

That she then left even the purse in the car, and went in to her actual meeting carrying nothing but her car keys, suggests she thought she'd be in and back out in maybe a minute. It also tells us she probably parked near the destination. She's not going to leave her stuff in an unattended car parked 300 yards away. If she's right outside where she's going, and only has to cross the road or even the kerb, she possibly might.

So whoever kills her, and realises he needs to get rid of her car, doesn't even have to look far to find it. It's the Ford that the keys fit. It's probably the first one he sees, helpfully confirmed as a woman's by the straw hat, and as the right one by the keys fitting and the purse inside.

There are OTOH three things IMO that argue against this being a deliberate killing at the PoW. First, the visit originally planned for SJL was at 6pm to a busy pub. At such a busy time of the day, there was no prospect of anyone cornering her and assaulting her. Yet that was the arrangement originally made, and about four people there knew of it. It seems to have been changed only at 12.40. So, and secondly, if CV or A N Other at the pub then decided to assault SJL, he had minutes' notice of the changed plans and had to flick the spontaneous and murderous sexual violence on, and then off again. This doesn't seem likely. Third, in killing someone whose office he had phoned and who had made an appointment to come there, there would have been a very high risk of exposure, because a half-competent investigation would have found out immediately where she went. The calls between the PoW, the bank, and Sturgis would make it 100% clear where she had gone and why, and who knew she was on her way.

I think this is probably why DV suggests that it's a mistake to assume SJL's was a planned killing, and may instead have been some unimaginable accident. Basically, nothing that happened (that we know of) between the PoW and SJL before she arrived there suggested anyone had any malign intentions towards her. Everything that makes it suspicious happened after the fact: the denial she ever went there, the James Galway sighting, the dumping of her car, the failure to say anything to the returning full-time landlord, the unintelligible account of events.

The idea that you'd plan a killing in which you leave a trail all over the place as to where SJL went, and cunningly hide your tracks by moving her car, wouldn't last five seconds in a Breaking Bad script conference. It's almost too stupid to entertain. But the idea in which you plan no such thing but she dies anyway, and you then cover it up, well, that starts to look less unlikely.
 
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  • #736
So whoever kills her, and realises he needs to get rid of her car, doesn't even have to look far to find it. It's the Ford that the keys fit. It's probably the first one he sees, helpfully confirmed as a woman's by the straw hat, and as the right one by the keys fitting and the purse inside.

And, if the perpetrator did not know SJL's car beforehand, the place it was parked would be (1) near to the place where she went inside to encounter him/with him (2) not in a very public area where there were pedestrians and other motorists who could see and remember him getting into it (i.e. if I were stuck behind a double parked car during my lunch hour when I had limited time, I would likely remember the bloke getting into the car, faffing around putting the seat back, etc).

If the perpetrator knew SJL and knew her car then this is easy of course, although he still has to be careful no one sees him getting in.

And yes, if she used Shorrolds as a cover story to go and do something else, whatever she went to go and do had to be a quick errand, or the Shorrolds story isn't going to hold water. Since she made a cover story it had to be important for her to do so, she couldn't just go out without having a work related reason to do so. Actually an argument against her planning to go to the pub to collect her items is that she didn't take her bag, because if she came back to the office clutching those items she might be asked about them. However, she could have left them in her car underneath something, or just dropped them at her flat as it was so close. So it's a fairly weak argument against.

If SJL told her colleagues about the diary and chequebook and the pub, as surely must have been the case, what was the reason the police dismissed the pub as a possible location for her to have visited? Or tried to visit?

I think too much is made of the "perpetrator needed a motive" idea when in reality most murders are spur of the moment. The "motive" is often the perpetrator's instant rage/lust right before.

One thing that stuck out for me in CV's interview with DV was the way he remembered where the diary and chequebook had been placed in the pub, he said that of course SJL could not have been because the chequebook and diary were still in the cellar, or on a shelf on the stairs down to it (seems an odd place to put lost property but maybe that's the safest). This incident was decades ago in a pub he lived in for 6 weeks, then was at for a few days. Yet he recalls where lost property, specifically SJL's, was put? If he worked there for years then I would not be surprised he remembered but so much has happened since then so why recall this trivial detail? I think either he has an exceptional memory or this incident was very important to him, perhaps because of all the publicity around it and him thinking about his being involved albeit on the periphery.

I don't think there is a complicated plot here involving multiple people, decoy cars and other Hollywood movie plot devices. SJL went out, encountered someone--either someone she knew and planned to meet i.e. a boyfriend, someone she knew and didn't plan to meet, or someone she just came across while running her errand. Went inside somewhere, for some reason, and something happened because whoever she met probably either tried it on with her, or decided having found himself alone with her, to assault her. It would be appallingly tragic in the extreme if this case is never solved because the police believed in SJL's flimsy cover story excluding all other hypotheses, and DL encouraged it because of her strict religious beliefs and the fact that she didn't want the public to think badly of SJL.
 
  • #737
And, if the perpetrator did not know SJL's car beforehand, the place it was parked would be (1) near to the place where she went inside to encounter him/with him (2) not in a very public area where there were pedestrians and other motorists who could see and remember him getting into it (i.e. if I were stuck behind a double parked car during my lunch hour when I had limited time, I would likely remember the bloke getting into the car, faffing around putting the seat back, etc).

If the perpetrator knew SJL and knew her car then this is easy of course, although he still has to be careful no one sees him getting in.

And yes, if she used Shorrolds as a cover story to go and do something else, whatever she went to go and do had to be a quick errand, or the Shorrolds story isn't going to hold water. Since she made a cover story it had to be important for her to do so, she couldn't just go out without having a work related reason to do so. Actually an argument against her planning to go to the pub to collect her items is that she didn't take her bag, because if she came back to the office clutching those items she might be asked about them. However, she could have left them in her car underneath something, or just dropped them at her flat as it was so close. So it's a fairly weak argument against.

If SJL told her colleagues about the diary and chequebook and the pub, as surely must have been the case, what was the reason the police dismissed the pub as a possible location for her to have visited? Or tried to visit?

I think too much is made of the "perpetrator needed a motive" idea when in reality most murders are spur of the moment. The "motive" is often the perpetrator's instant rage/lust right before.

One thing that stuck out for me in CV's interview with DV was the way he remembered where the diary and chequebook had been placed in the pub, he said that of course SJL could not have been because the chequebook and diary were still in the cellar, or on a shelf on the stairs down to it (seems an odd place to put lost property but maybe that's the safest). This incident was decades ago in a pub he lived in for 6 weeks, then was at for a few days. Yet he recalls where lost property, specifically SJL's, was put? If he worked there for years then I would not be surprised he remembered but so much has happened since then so why recall this trivial detail? I think either he has an exceptional memory or this incident was very important to him, perhaps because of all the publicity around it and him thinking about his being involved albeit on the periphery.

I don't think there is a complicated plot here involving multiple people, decoy cars and other Hollywood movie plot devices. SJL went out, encountered someone--either someone she knew and planned to meet i.e. a boyfriend, someone she knew and didn't plan to meet, or someone she just came across while running her errand. Went inside somewhere, for some reason, and something happened because whoever she met probably either tried it on with her, or decided having found himself alone with her, to assault her. It would be appallingly tragic in the extreme if this case is never solved because the police believed in SJL's flimsy cover story excluding all other hypotheses, and DL encouraged it because of her strict religious beliefs and the fact that she didn't want the public to think badly of SJL.
Yes. 100% correct, don’t over think this, keep it simple. And you’re right, the police should take their medication and start properly solving this case.
 
  • #738
what was the reason the police dismissed the pub as a possible location for her to have visited? Or tried to visit?

The relief manager told them she hadn't been.

Yep.
 
  • #739
Hi, I haven't posted on here but been reading up over the last few weeks.

I agree with the above posts and to my mind all of it is pointing to her nipping out of work to the PoW to quickly pick up her diary and belongings. Something happened that resulted in her life being ended. A hasty cover up meant a quick hiding of her body, swift dumping of her car, leg it back to the pub and deny she had ever been there.

It is outrageous of the police to have failed SJL in this manner, however, my sense of it is they then became more motivated to cover up their own failings than to solve the crime. That is the pattern in many failing institutions and never more so than the UK police of that era.
 
  • #740
Hi, I haven't posted on here but been reading up over the last few weeks.

I agree with the above posts and to my mind all of it is pointing to her nipping out of work to the PoW to quickly pick up her diary and belongings. Something happened that resulted in her life being ended. A hasty cover up meant a quick hiding of her body, swift dumping of her car, leg it back to the pub and deny she had ever been there.

It is outrageous of the police to have failed SJL in this manner, however, my sense of it is they then became more motivated to cover up their own failings than to solve the crime. That is the pattern in many failing institutions and never more so than the UK police of that era.
Bang on the money, a cover up is more important to them than solving SJL’s disappearance for her remaining family.
 
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