UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[TimFisher1965]

I get the importance of the highlights, however, some male witnesses describe the woman outside 37 Shorrolds as a blonde.
Now from what you say highlights would not constitute being blonde?
Have I got this wrong?

No I think it was a blond and not SL

 

[asyousay]

If it wasn’t Suzy outside 37 Shorrolds and the house was for sale who was hanging around outside that day ?



it seems highly coincidental that a blond woman was outside the same house that Suzy was showing that afternoon and if this was not Suzy we have nobody come forward to explain that it was them.

Moo

 

[TimFisher1965]

I get the importance of the highlights, however, some male witnesses describe the woman outside 37 Shorrolds as a blonde.
Now from what you say highlights would not constitute being blonde?
Have I got this wrong?

No I think it was a blond and not SL

If it wasn’t Suzy outside 37 Shorrolds and the house was for sale who was hanging around outside that day ?



it seems highly coincidental that a blond woman was outside the same house that Suzy was showing that afternoon and if this was not Suzy we have nobody come forward to explain that it was them.

Moo

we don’t think that person will come forward if it is who we think it might be

 

[Terryb808]

No I think it was a blond and not SL


we don’t think that person will come forward if it is who we think it might be

You’ve hit the nail on the head, I think it was her also and she’s not going to come forward now.

 

[asyousay]

No I think it was a blond and not SL


we don’t think that person will come forward if it is who we think it might be

Ooh the woman who can’t be named?

 

[WiseOwl]

The 14.00 taxi driver sighting of SJL’s car in Stevenage Road would fit with the 14.30 account of the James Galway man being picked up and the “right ruck” comment he made.
If DV is right SJL would have arrived at the PoW by 13.00. Then an argument commenced and she died. By car it’s only about 6to 8 minutes to Stevenage Road, so it’s entirely possible to locate SJL’s car and abandon it in Stevenage Road by 14.15 and then get a taxi.
SJL’s car being in Stevenage Road at 14.00 does not fit with BW seeing her at around 14.45 going towards Hammersmith.
One of them has to be wrong.

But what about the two workmen BC and his son CC, who were digging and laying pipes all day in Stevenage Road just yards from where Suzy's car was found - they neither saw or heard anything unusual that day and were working there until around 4 pm. Out of all the witnesses who could have saw Suzy's car being parked there that day it would surely be these two, yet they saw nothing.

 

[asyousay]

I still think it was somebody she knew and the car wasn’t parked there until mid afternoon.



POW theory sounds promising but there are holes in that theory that I just can’t get past.


I also believe her stuff being taken and then returned is part of the mystery.

IMO

 

[WiseOwl]

I still think it was somebody she knew and the car wasn’t parked there until mid afternoon.



POW theory sounds promising but there are holes in that theory that I just can’t get past.


I also believe her stuff being taken and then returned is part of the mystery.

IMO

I believe Suzy's car was parked in Stevenage Road sometime between 4 pm (when the workmen left) and 5.15 pm (when the garage owner returned from work).

 

[TimFisher1965]

Her missing stuff is important I said so from day one but were they taken or did she lose them? Either way it forced her to go and get them or at least intend to. As to the workman this had always bothered me but how close were they working to where the car was parked and were they wearing headphones or ear defenders? It’s also possible if course they may have been on a break and not been there when the car turned up. Would they have noticed a bland white car anyway?

 

[TimFisher1965]

The problem is with this case and always has been is that we know (within reason) that SL left her office at about 12.40pm we know that her car was found at 10.01pm in Stevenage Road and we know NOTHING else for certain.

So possessions were either lost on Friday or Monday? (I believe Sunday)

Car was in Stevenage Road before 12.40pm and then maybe seen at 12.45pm (both by WJ) 2pm by taxi driver, 5.15pm by garage owner or any other time you decide fits your theory depending on who you believe? none of these witnesses except the policeman at 10.01pm can be verified.

So who was right and who was wrong? If the car was there at 12.40pm when WJ allegedly first saw it SL was leaving the office at the same time HOW? If she did turn up around 12.40 - 12.45pm why didn't the workman or WJ see her?
WJ says she noticed it because it was across her friends garage but after seeing it at 12.45pm she was out until later but when she got back it was there. Taxi driver at 2pm allegedly lived in Stevenage road and was a taxi driver so reliable car person did he see it at 2pm? if he didn't was it just coincidence that a white fiesta was in the same spot or is he wrong? The garage owner saw it at 5.15pm and he must be right I think as it was his garage so pretty sure he would get the sighting and time right.

Unless these can be verified and confirmed by anything more than a fleeting witness sighting the only thing we can assume is true is that 5.15pm by the garage owner is almost certainly correct so between 12.40pm and 5.15pm where was the car?

 

[WiseOwl]

Her missing stuff is important I said so from day one but were they taken or did she lose them? Either way it forced her to go and get them or at least intend to. As to the workman this had always bothered me but how close were they working to where the car was parked and were they wearing headphones or ear defenders? It’s also possible if course they may have been on a break and not been there when the car turned up. Would they have noticed a bland white car anyway?

I highly doubt that they wore headphones or ear defenders back in the '80's, this was an era before health & safety went into overdrive!

I would tend to believe the statement of two witnesses over an individual one, particularly as they were fairly close to where the car was eventually found. Also if the car was parked in Stevenage Road between 4 - 5 pm it would support the theory that Suzy was still alive when seen by BW around 2.30 - 2.45 that afternoon.

 

[TimFisher1965]

I highly doubt that they wore headphones or ear defenders back in the '80's, this was an era before health & safety went into overdrive!

I would tend to believe the statement of two witnesses over an individual one, particularly as they were fairly close to where the car was eventually found. Also if the car was parked in Stevenage Road between 4 - 5 pm it would support the theory that Suzy was still alive when seen by BW around 2.30 - 2.45 that afternoon.

Possibly, I would still want to know how close to the parked car the workman were, I reckon they saw nothing. I always thought thought that the car was left there after 4pm and before 5.15pm when the garage owner saw it. is there any scenario whereby the fiesta was there at 12.45pm and moved and put back later so that the WJ 12.45pm and later sightings plus the garage owners could all then be true? On the fence re BW a 20 second view to a person she saw perhaps once a week in business over the previous year is possible perhaps even likely but I think maybe she just got it wrong

 

[WiseOwl]

The problem is with this case and always has been is that we know (within reason) that SL left her office at about 12.40pm we know that her car was found at 10.01pm in Stevenage Road and we know NOTHING else for certain.

So possessions were either lost on Friday or Monday? (I believe Sunday)

Car was in Stevenage Road before 12.40pm and then maybe seen at 12.45pm (both by WJ) 2pm by taxi driver, 5.15pm by garage owner or any other time you decide fits your theory depending on who you believe? none of these witnesses except the policeman at 10.01pm can be verified.

So who was right and who was wrong? If the car was there at 12.40pm when WJ allegedly first saw it SL was leaving the office at the same time HOW? If she did turn up around 12.40 - 12.45pm why didn't the workman or WJ see her?
WJ says she noticed it because it was across her friends garage but after seeing it at 12.45pm she was out until later but when she got back it was there. Taxi driver at 2pm allegedly lived in Stevenage road and was a taxi driver so reliable car person did he see it at 2pm? if he didn't was it just coincidence that a white fiesta was in the same spot or is he wrong? The garage owner saw it at 5.15pm and he must be right I think as it was his garage so pretty sure he would get the sighting and time right.

Unless these can be verified and confirmed by anything more than a fleeting witness sighting the only thing we can assume is true is that 5.15pm by the garage owner is almost certainly correct so between 12.40pm and 5.15pm where was the car?

I agree with the points you make Tim, in fact some of us posters talked about this a lot in Thread#1.

The garage owner would be correct (hopefully) about the car being parked where it was when he arrived home at 5.15 pm that day. Suzy left the office around 12.40 according to KR, so it leaves around 4 and-a-half hours to fill in.

So where did Suzy go after leaving the office? In AS's book it is stated that two members of staff saw Suzy take the keys.

PAGE 6: The estate agent manager (MG) remembered Susannah coming behind his desk to pick up the keys, which were attached to the large and distinctive yellow Sturgis key fob. The drive from the office to the house would have taken, he estimated, between three and four minutes.

PAGE 28 & 29: KR went to her bank at 12.30 but returned 5 minutes later, and remembered seeing Susannah on the phone and half-sitting on her desk as if she was about to leave. She went to pick up the keys to 37 Shorrolds Road from the key board behind MG's desk, and then took the house details from a drawer. Everything seemed normal. She was carrying her purse too, and a ring holding the keys of her car, the office and her flat.

Despite these two statements in AS's book, DV clearly does not believe that Suzy took the keys that day, but what he fails to do is give an explanation as to why he disregards these statements. In fact, he doesn't mention it at all in his book but decides that Suzy couldn't have took the keys because the police had a set (the only set) that they used to get into Shorrolds Road on the Tuesday morning.

So if DV is correct in his assumption then what of the statements in AS's book? Could both MG and KR have been mistaken about Suzy taking the keys? Had the police got the wrong information and just assumed things in their original investigation? Had AS got it wrong in his book?

IMO DV had the perfect opportunity when interviewing MG for his book to ask about the keys the day Suzy disappeared, two questions in particular.

1. Did you see Suzy go behind your desk to pick up the keys?

2. Did you go to Shorrolds Road twice that afternoon, including going inside the property with a set of keys?

I feel DV missed a golden opportunity here.

 

[TimFisher1965]

I agree with the points you make Tim, in fact some of us posters talked about this a lot in Thread#1.

The garage owner would be correct (hopefully) about the car being parked where it was when he arrived home at 5.15 pm that day. Suzy left the office around 12.40 according to KR, so it leaves around 4 and-a-half hours to fill in.
I agree

So where did Suzy go after leaving the office? In AS's book it is stated that two members of staff saw Suzy take the keys.
I think this is wrong, see below

PAGE 6: The estate agent manager (MG) remembered Susannah coming behind his desk to pick up the keys, which were attached to the large and distinctive yellow Sturgis key fob. The drive from the office to the house would have taken, he estimated, between three and four minutes.
MG wasn't even in the office when this happened he was at lunch with KP at the crocodile tears wine bar? not sure what to make of this from a guy who was a branch manager that did not know the vendor gave Sturgis one set of keys??

PAGE 28 & 29: KR went to her bank at 12.30 but returned 5 minutes later, and remembered seeing Susannah on the phone and half-sitting on her desk as if she was about to leave. She went to pick up the keys to 37 Shorrolds Road from the key board behind MG's desk, and then took the house details from a drawer. Everything seemed normal. She was carrying her purse too, and a ring holding the keys of her car, the office and her flat.
YES I agree KR saw this BUT what if her Sturgis shared car keys were on the yellow fob (as suggested/confirmed by DV) and this is what KR saw and she ASSUMED it was the house keys to 37 Shorrolds Road. We know she had her purse so this could explain why it was assumed she had gone to Shorrolds because when they checked her diary later this is what they expected to see. I think they assumed she had the keys because of this brief glimpse by KR.

Despite these two statements in AS's book, DV clearly does not believe that Suzy took the keys that day, but what he fails to do is give an explanation as to why he disregards these statements. In fact, he doesn't mention it at all in his book but decides that Suzy couldn't have took the keys because the police had a set (the only set) that they used to get into Shorrolds Road on the Tuesday morning.
If there was only one set and they had them the next day its IMPOSSIBLE for SL to have taken them so DV is correct, as I said above if MG was not there that only leaves KR and she may have mistaken the keys in SL hand as the house keys when they were in fact the car keys. I reckon SL figured if she was quick she would be back before MG and KP came back so no problem, she leaves jacket on back of chair to suggest a quick viewing but she never came back. From this point on the staff all ASSUME the wrong events happening

So if DV is correct in his assumption then what of the statements in AS's book? Could both MG and KR have been mistaken about Suzy taking the keys? YES Had the police got the wrong information and just assumed things in their original investigation? Had AS got it wrong in his book? YES
MG wasn't there so he cannot know this, KR is different did DV find her? I think not. But also JC (office junior not prison JC) said in a doc that SL went behind his desk to get keys I emailed him and he spoke to me but even after agreeing to answer my questions did not reply to any of the questions I asked him one of which was about the keys, if this happened why did his account not get mentioned in AS book? because I believe it never happened and later he went along with the assumed narrative.

IMO DV had the perfect opportunity when interviewing MG for his book to ask about the keys the day Suzy disappeared, two questions in particular.

1. Did you see Suzy go behind your desk to pick up the keys?
I agree would have nailed this down for all time

2. Did you go to Shorrolds Road twice that afternoon, including going inside the property with a set of keys?
I agree again this would help with the timeline, also i would have asked who went with him and if he spoke to HR too

I feel DV missed a golden opportunity here.

I agree with you. To really solve this case the timeline for each hour between Friday 25th July from the time the Sturgis office up to 10.01pm on the Monday 28th would be helpful because there is far too much stuff in the timeline that cannot fit so we need to remove the false narrative and see the true picture. I think with truthful statements and deductive reasoning this can still be done. Many other people can still be interviewed too to nail down some of these facts.

I said this before but although I think AS is an excellent writer he got his info from the staff and the police files and officers and they have both been very unreliable and contradictory as sources of info, it's not because AS did not do a good job much of what info he had was I believe corrupted info then add the pressure from the Lamplughs when they saw the book and its not hard to see why we are where we are.

 

[asyousay]

Suzy taking the keys just makes sense to me and the fact it’s claimed in the original book she did just adds up.


If she did make up a fake appointment she was obviously going to grab the keys to make it look real. That’s just basic common sense.


MOO

 

[TimFisher1965]

Suzy taking the keys just makes sense to me and the fact it’s claimed in the original book she did just adds up.


If she did make up a fake appointment she was obviously going to grab the keys to make it look real. That’s just basic common sense.


MOO

The vendor only gave Sturgis one set of keys a fact ascertained when DV interviewed the partner at Sturgis which means when the police got into Shorrolds road the next day with a set of keys they were taken from the office so that fact alone is proof SL never had them OR in a very unlikely scenario she took them and someone put them back which is clearly ludicrous.

DV made it clear that as the big boss KP was at lunch with MG her nipping out for a personal errand was far too risky so her making the false appointment was a necessity. The interviews in DV book makes these points very clearly. The vendor gave one set of keys to Sturgis if SL had them how did the police get in the next day without breaking the door down? Even the police now acknowledge SL almost certainly put in the false entry and ran a personal errand.

 

[asyousay]

The vendor only gave Sturgis one set of keys a fact ascertained when DV interviewed the partner at Sturgis which means when the police got into Shorrolds road the next day with a set of keys they were taken from the office so that fact alone is proof SL never had them OR in a very unlikely scenario she took them and someone put them back which is clearly ludicrous.

DV made it clear that as the big boss KP was at lunch with MG her nipping out for a personal errand was far too risky so her making the false appointment was a necessity. The interviews in DV book makes these points very clearly. The vendor gave one set of keys to Sturgis if SL had them how did the police get in the next day without breaking the door down? Even the police now acknowledge SL almost certainly put in the false entry and ran a personal errand.

So then we have office worker ( gone blank on his name) lying when he claims she walked around him to grab the keys , why would he lie?


If she didn’t take the keys why did nobody in 30 years notice this and only DV did? It just doesn’t add up.


I think with passage of time people have forgotten stuff. I will take personal accounts that happened the next day & weeks over somebody claiming something 35 years later.


MOO

 

[WiseOwl]

@TimFisher1965 - With respect some of the things you quoted in your last post as 'facts' are not.

1. Possessions lost on Sunday not Friday and found at 10.30pm by CV at the POW, why was SL there? (calling AL from payphone probably)

This is not a fact, no-one knows for sure when the things were lost and where does it say in DV's book that Suzy was at the pub?

2. Stock check at the POW meaning permanent landlord was away who knew this before??

The permanent landlord wasn't away, he was there the morning of the stock take.

3. NH and SF were in a relationship at the time and were at the pub having lunch

Where does it say in DV's book that NH & SF were having lunch at the pub?

4. MG was NOT in the office even though in AS book it says he was
MG was having lunch with his boss (the man who REALLY gave SL her job NOT MG) at the time at the crocodile tears wine bar so could not have seen SL take the keys

At no point in either interview with DV does MG say he was not in the office when Suzy left. He says he went to the Crocodile Tears with KP but he does not give a time. It was KP himself who said they left around midday, but he was interviewed by DV in 2019, 33 years after the event so how accurate is his memory after all that time?

5. There was a policy that a negotiator had to be in the office at all times and as NH and his girlfriend SF had gone out the only way SL could leave was for an appointment which she manufactured.

NH & SF hadn't gone out to lunch, SF had gone to view a property with a client that morning. DV's assumption is that Suzy wanted to get out of the office before NH & SF did. He may be quite correct in that but it is still only an assumption on his part and definitely not a fact.

6. If you saw me go behind your desk and rattle a key fob then walk back and leave the office you would assume I had taken the keys, how would you know 5 hours later I had not?

Please look again at KR's statement of when she last saw Suzy in the office - it is a well-detailed description of what she saw Suzy do before she left.

Although DV's book was well researched and he did uncover a lot of things we didn't know previously, most of what he says has happened in the book is an interpretation of events - not actual facts. Because of the Shorrolds Road keys mystery he has come to the conclusion that Suzy did not go to Shorrolds Road that lunchtime but instead went to the PoW pub, and that something happened to her there.

 

[Terryb808]

So then we have office worker ( gone blank on his name) lying when he claims she walked around him to grab the keys , why would he lie?


If she didn’t take the keys why did nobody in 30 years notice this and only DV did? It just doesn’t add up.


I think with passage of time people have forgotten stuff. I will take personal accounts that happened the next day & weeks over somebody claiming something 35 years later.


MOO

I think that witnesses on the day were busy and made assumptions. If they truly believed the the Mr Kipper appointment was real they would have assumed SJL took the keys.
It’s just another busy Monday morning, why would anyone question that SJL took the keys and paperwork?
Interviews 30 plus years later are not going to clear up this question, too much time has passed.

 

[TimFisher1965]

This case will never be solved too many arguments about what actually happened too many contradictions too many clues and nobody can agree about what happened.
The manager, the senior manager and the partner all said there was one set of keys so for me 90% of what people think must have happened cannot have happened.
If there was one set of keys and the police used them to get into 37 Shorrolds road SL never had them so could not have gone there to meet a client nobody can place her car there at any time.
Conclusion she never went to Shorrolds road