UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[Terryb808]

I blew up the page to the max I could and it says "6a, Wyfold" which is a few streets from Shorrolds about 500 metres.
Anyone have any thoughts?

I checked this to see if it is a legit address and its definitely is but why cross it out and write the wardo thing underneath?

This is something that is easy to overlook, as you say SJL seems to want to hide the address?
However, the other words are not hidden, the building looks like flats, and as you say it’s 6a?
It may not have anything to do with her disappearance, but it’s something that should have been looked at back then.

 

[WestLondoner]

I'm quite interested in the implications of SJL going to the PoW and of whatever happened involving KF.

We tend to default to assuming that SJL was killed by a sexual predator. Unless KF is a (vanishingly rare) female example of this - I can only think of Fred Wesr and Myra Hindley - then the only reason for her to be involved is presumably money. She could have been dragged in against her will - helping to cover it up for example. But women are not usually participants and when they do kill they kill those weaker, such as their children. There's no evidence KF had ever met SJL - she worked in the kitchen so even if SJL were a regular at the PoW KF could not have known her.

So I really can't see how she's involved unless she and CV conceived some half baked plan to rip her off. Did they demand money? Did they steal a few cheques thinking they could lift her bank card and make them out to cash?

It's really hard to fathom; this would require them to go from inept fraudsters to master (and lucky) criminals in moments.

Was CV's account ever in the press at the time? Specifically, was there ever a photo of him in the press?

 

[Terryb808]

I'm quite interested in the implications of SJL going to the PoW and of whatever happened involving KF.

We tend to default to assuming that SJL was killed by a sexual predator. Unless KF is a (vanishingly rare) female example of this - I can only think of Fred Wesr and Myra Hindley - then the only reason for her to be involved is presumably money. She could have been dragged in against her will - helping to cover it up for example. But women are not usually participants and when they do kill they kill those weaker, such as their children. There's no evidence KF had ever met SJL - she worked in the kitchen so even if SJL were a regular at the PoW KF could not have known her.

So I really can't see how she's involved unless she and CV conceived some half baked plan to rip her off. Did they demand money? Did they steal a few cheques thinking they could lift her bank card and make them out to cash?

It's really hard to fathom; this would require them to go from inept fraudsters to master (and lucky) criminals in moments.

Was CV's account ever in the press at the time? Specifically, was there ever a photo of him in the press?

I’d have expected the police to have looked at the chequebook in detail. They certainly looked at SJL’s finances and found nothing wrong.
It could have been blackmail if her diary contained details of her many conquests.

 

[WestLondoner]

Well, I dunno...they didn't think the planned visit to the PoW was remotely important, so I doubt they gave any thought to how it might have gone wrong.

Agree that blackmail is possible; "do X or I'll tell your four blokes about each other" or something.

 

[TimFisher1965]

I'm struggling to see blackmail as a factor. If we believe DV's interview with Michael Hutchings he and his wife saw the diary on the Sunday night and found no address and nothing they remember when recalling the event to DV. Also according to CV the items were placed into the cellar. Assuming the brief viewing took place around 10.30pm to 10.45pm (before going to the Chinese takeaway or after?) and the items placed in the cellar soon after would CV have time with or without his wife seeing him check out the diary and formulate a plan to use the content as a means to an end. If he was around for the stock check with his wife and Michael and Zoe what time did he have to look at it and make a plan? It's possible that he may have taken another look IF the phone call with SL did happen and he may have thought "she seemed VERY desperate" to get the diary back so what is in it that is so important? I think its possible that if SL did go to the POW and was alone with him he may have chanced his arm and said how badly do you want this back? but it seems far fetched to me. He was in charge for the first time and his trainer had left the premises perhaps less than an hour before SL turns up, would he really risk everything to do this? It makes more sense to me if he made a flippant remark and it escalated into a heated exchange and an accident or assault took place. I find it hard to believe he had time or the nerve to plan some kind of extortion or blackmail attempt particularly if his wife was there. I think an accident or incident caused by something random is far more likely (IMO)

 

[Crusader21]

Was CV's account ever in the press at the time? Specifically, was there ever a photo of him in the press?

I've never saw a photo of him (from any era).

Now wouldn't it be something if he resembled James Galway in 1986!?!

 

[Terryb808]

I've never saw a photo of him (from any era).

Now wouldn't it be something if he resembled James Galway in 1986!?!

That’s exactly the point I made some time back and for some reason it was removed.
You can find old photos generally of people who feature in these sort of cases, either in the news or on social media.
It’s a little odd that CV doesn’t feature anywhere.

 

[TimFisher1965]

That’s exactly the point I made some time back and for some reason it was removed.
You can find old photos generally of people who feature in these sort of cases, either in the news or on social media.
It’s a little odd that CV doesn’t feature anywhere.

According to a friend CV removed himself from social media (with presumably pics) when DV's book came out, coincidence?

 

[Terryb808]

According to a friend CV removed himself from social media (with presumably pics) when DV's book came out, coincidence?

All disappeared before DV's book came out, not even just before, it was a long time before, the general discussions on this forum at the time tended to focus on the PoW and the temp landlord, so its not surprising.

 

[WestLondoner]

If he was around for the stock check with his wife and Michael and Zoe what time did he have to look at it and make a plan?

Yes, this is the perplexing bit. Even if we assume that the motive was something CV found in her diary, as you've shown, he scarcely had time to read through it.

Now killers do kill off the cuff. The Yorkshire Ripper killed a woman on his way home once, because he saw her going into a park and figured that he could. So he parked, followed her, killed her, got back in his car, drove home and went on with his evening. It does happen. In this case it requires that CV somehow recognised the potential offered by SJL's rearranged visit, did her this harm, and hid her, all within his first hour in charge of the pub. He did this knowing that if she were ever found there, he would inevitably be incriminated.

We have no way of knowing if he'd ever set lustful eyes on her before she turned up, but I'd guess not. He was only the temporary guy, he'd only arrived that weekend, he had trained there in the previous six months but there's nothing to suggest he'd seen her in there before.

The police are still wrong to insist that they can't think of a motive, so it can't have been anyone at the pub, so let's not bother searching it. Just as a matter of procedure, it's an obvious omission not to identify all the places SJL may have gone, to note that the PoW was one unaccountably never searched, and to rectify that now. CV's story change to include phone calls and the total failure to mention anything to the permanent landlord both seem quite fishy to me.

The problem is that the police are fixed in the mindset that there would have had to be something "salacious" in the diary to prompt some sort of attack. That's the only motive they can think of. It seems equally plausible to me that what interested CV was the mention of bonuses. What if the diary said what bonuses were due, or what swanky places she had been, leading CV to think SJL was rich? That he could demand a reward for giving this diary back?

The speed and completeness of SJL's disappearance suggest either outrageous luck, or some premeditation. This is I guess an unstated assumption behind the Mr Kipper blind alley.

 

[Crusader21]

With hindsight, perhaps the police should have actively persued this 'James Galway' character at the very start.

Especially when he failed to come forward to the police appeal.

Spotted mid-afternoon Monday 28 July 1996, Finlay Street, Fulham hailing a taxi. Do you know this man likened in appearance to James Galway? Does someone who matches his description live locally in Fulham / Putney? Do you know of someone who matches his description work in the locality?

This man was spotted a very close to where missing estate agent Suzy Lamplugh's car was abandoned, he may be able to provide assistance to police with their enquiries ....

Oh to have cctv back then ....

 

[Crusader21]

Yes, this is the perplexing bit.

We have no way of knowing if he'd ever set lustful eyes on her before she turned up, but I'd guess not.

Mr and Mrs KH / CV arrived in the locality around Easter 1996 to start pub training in the PoW. Where did they live? Was there room with the permanent landlord plus wife living at the pub.

Did they rent a flat somewhere? And the obvious question, did KH actually visit Sturgis to source such accomadation?!? Was he on their books?

Was KH a housing client of SL?

 

[TimFisher1965]

Yes, this is the perplexing bit. Even if we assume that the motive was something CV found in her diary, as you've shown, he scarcely had time to read through it.

Now killers do kill off the cuff. The Yorkshire Ripper killed a woman on his way home once, because he saw her going into a park and figured that he could. So he parked, followed her, killed her, got back in his car, drove home and went on with his evening. It does happen. In this case it requires that CV somehow recognised the potential offered by SJL's rearranged visit, did her this harm, and hid her, all within his first hour in charge of the pub. He did this knowing that if she were ever found there, he would inevitably be incriminated.

We have no way of knowing if he'd ever set lustful eyes on her before she turned up, but I'd guess not. He was only the temporary guy, he'd only arrived that weekend, he had trained there in the previous six months but there's nothing to suggest he'd seen her in there before.

The police are still wrong to insist that they can't think of a motive, so it can't have been anyone at the pub, so let's not bother searching it. Just as a matter of procedure, it's an obvious omission not to identify all the places SJL may have gone, to note that the PoW was one unaccountably never searched, and to rectify that now. CV's story change to include phone calls and the total failure to mention anything to the permanent landlord both seem quite fishy to me.

The problem is that the police are fixed in the mindset that there would have had to be something "salacious" in the diary to prompt some sort of attack. That's the only motive they can think of. It seems equally plausible to me that what interested CV was the mention of bonuses. What if the diary said what bonuses were due, or what swanky places she had been, leading CV to think SJL was rich? That he could demand a reward for giving this diary back?

The speed and completeness of SJL's disappearance suggest either outrageous luck, or some premeditation. This is I guess an unstated assumption behind the Mr Kipper blind alley.

As Anita Brookner says it was either "meticulously planned OR the killer was lucky not to leave any clues" My belief is that the diary "may" have contained salacious info but I think its more likely it contained info pertaining to deals outside of Sturgis and this may be in fact not only something to hide from Sturgis but also a criminal act? perhaps she wrote contact numbers and used some kind of code which is why it was not obvious and the personal entries were mistakenly considered the info to chase not the innocuous names/numbers which may have looked like friends? she did seem very anxious to get it back and never mentioned the chequebook or postcard

 

[TimFisher1965]

Mr and Mrs KH / CV arrived in the locality around Easter 1996 to start pub training in the PoW. Where did they live? Was there room with the permanent landlord plus wife living at the pub.

Did they rent a flat somewhere? And the obvious question, did KH actually visit Sturgis to source such accommodation?!? Was he on their books?

Was KH a housing client of SL?

Isn't it more likely they stayed at the pub? but it does mean they had time to become familiar with the area and "maybe" their paths crossed?

 

[Terryb808]

Yes, this is the perplexing bit. Even if we assume that the motive was something CV found in her diary, as you've shown, he scarcely had time to read through it.

Now killers do kill off the cuff. The Yorkshire Ripper killed a woman on his way home once, because he saw her going into a park and figured that he could. So he parked, followed her, killed her, got back in his car, drove home and went on with his evening. It does happen. In this case it requires that CV somehow recognised the potential offered by SJL's rearranged visit, did her this harm, and hid her, all within his first hour in charge of the pub. He did this knowing that if she were ever found there, he would inevitably be incriminated.

We have no way of knowing if he'd ever set lustful eyes on her before she turned up, but I'd guess not. He was only the temporary guy, he'd only arrived that weekend, he had trained there in the previous six months but there's nothing to suggest he'd seen her in there before.

The police are still wrong to insist that they can't think of a motive, so it can't have been anyone at the pub, so let's not bother searching it. Just as a matter of procedure, it's an obvious omission not to identify all the places SJL may have gone, to note that the PoW was one unaccountably never searched, and to rectify that now. CV's story change to include phone calls and the total failure to mention anything to the permanent landlord both seem quite fishy to me.

The problem is that the police are fixed in the mindset that there would have had to be something "salacious" in the diary to prompt some sort of attack. That's the only motive they can think of. It seems equally plausible to me that what interested CV was the mention of bonuses. What if the diary said what bonuses were due, or what swanky places she had been, leading CV to think SJL was rich? That he could demand a reward for giving this diary back?

The speed and completeness of SJL's disappearance suggest either outrageous luck, or some premeditation. This is I guess an unstated assumption behind the Mr Kipper blind alley.

Don't forget CV found SJL's items while locking up / going out for his takeaway, what if SJL was still there using the payphone, he'd have seen her and her things would have been on the table outside the PoW. CV would have had time that evening to read the diary and it wouldn't have taken Sherlock Holmes to work out who left it behind?

 

[TimFisher1965]

I am satisfied that SL dropped the items there whilst calling AL I think its unlikely he lifted them while SL was in the phone box as it was literally 10 feet away although I accept it is possible. Nothing about the possessions makes me think anything was planned this was the night before he and his wife were in charge of a pub for what was on the face of it a new career I cannot see him risking this on day one I think something spontaneous happened the next day and nothing was planned. But that is just my opinion

 

[Terryb808]

Mr and Mrs KH / CV arrived in the locality around Easter 1996 to start pub training in the PoW. Where did they live? Was there room with the permanent landlord plus wife living at the pub.

Did they rent a flat somewhere? And the obvious question, did KH actually visit Sturgis to source such accomadation?!? Was he on their books?

Was KH a housing client of SL?

This is a good point and while it make every sense to have the temporary landlord onsite at the PoW, its certainly more cost effective than hiring accommodation for them, if they had accommodation away from the PoW it would have given CV more time on his own?

 

[Terryb808]

I am satisfied that SL dropped the items there whilst calling AL I think its unlikely he lifted them while SL was in the phone box as it was literally 10 feet away although I accept it is possible. Nothing about the possessions makes me think anything was planned this was the night before he and his wife were in charge of a pub for what was on the face of it a new career I cannot see him risking this on day one I think something spontaneous happened the next day and nothing was planned. But that is just my opinion

I agree 100% with the spontaneous conclusion, we're tending to look into this in some detail, and we have nothing to go on, we could assume CV saw SJL on the Sunday, read the diary and when she agreed to collect it while the PoW was closed just on the spur of the moment tried it on.
We can't know why and what motivated him because we don't know what was in the diary, or if he may have briefly know SJL when he was in the PoW doing his training, the training period was long enough to have provided him with a good knowledge of the area, so the events that followed are very logical.

 

[asyousay]

There is not a single big of proof that CV is involved in this. Do none of you find it odd that the author of said book has not been able to get the family or the police to look at his evidence?


He literally has not shown one shred of proof to back up his theory.


moo

 

[Terryb808]

There is not a single big of proof that CV is involved in this. Do none of you find it odd that the author of said book has not been able to get the family or the police to look at his evidence?


He literally has not shown one shred of proof to back up his theory.


moo

Agree, however, there’s no evidence against anyone. So DV’s narrative is as good as any other.
Not surprising that the Met wouldn’t look, they have good reason not to and it’s not the lack of evidence.
Take your point about the Lamplugh family, however, they have suffered 36 years and counting looking for SJL. During this time have had a number of people saying they know what happened and nothing ever came of it.
A number of contributors to this thread have pointed out the obvious, that being that the Met searched many properties, but failed to look at the PoW.
Lets be logical, it was a place she was due to visit, yet for 36 years it’s been totally ignored.
If there’s even the remotest chance (back then) that she went to the PoW, it’s negligence on the Mets part not to have looked.
They took the word of a temporary landlord known to the actual PoW landlord for a few months as totally truthful, which is again very poor police work.
Ian Huntley fooled the police, okay he was caught eventually, CV could just be the same.