UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[asyousay]

I think we must take BW seriously because she is the only witness who knew SL personally. It’s tricky because if you search for her name on YouTube a clip is there where she is interviewed about it (not the crimewatch clip btw) she does come across as a but ditzy and not too clued up. However if she is right then the car cannot be at Stevenage Road meaning it’s possible WJ saw it at 12.45 but it wasn’t there from about 2.30. As I have said before the case is like a Rubiks cube get one set of facts line up then others do not fit. Open question who do we believe more WJ or BW ? If you discount WJ completely and SL never went there where was she between 12.30-40pm and 2.30pm - 2.45pm? The sighting is only about a mile from the sturgis office it seems odd and hard to reconcile. Thoughts?

I completely discount WJ I don’t think she saw that car when she claimed.


I think the car was parked later on in the afternoon and it was spotted at about 4pm if I remember rightly?


I think she met somebody that afternoon that she knew and it was spur of the moment but important enough to ditch work and something happened in a property hence why nobody saw anything.

 

[Templeton100]

Sorry if this has already been answered previously but I don't understand how CV would have known where SL had parked her car. Even if the keys had a tag, with the number plate on it, would it really have been that easy to locate it and then how long would CV have needed to do this and then dump it elsewhere? Could he really have left the pub unattended for such an extended period of time, without anybody else being aware?

 

[Terryb808]

I think we must take BW seriously because she is the only witness who knew SL personally. It’s tricky because if you search for her name on YouTube a clip is there where she is interviewed about it (not the crimewatch clip btw) she does come across as a but ditzy and not too clued up. However if she is right then the car cannot be at Stevenage Road meaning it’s possible WJ saw it at 12.45 but it wasn’t there from about 2.30. As I have said before the case is like a Rubiks cube get one set of facts line up then others do not fit. Open question who do we believe more WJ or BW ? If you discount WJ completely and SL never went there where was she between 12.30-40pm and 2.30pm - 2.45pm? The sighting is only about a mile from the sturgis office it seems odd and hard to reconcile. Thoughts?

As you say it's like doing an abstract jigsaw with no picture.

My very first attempts at this was to try and fit all the witness statements together, this very quickly makes you realise that they're not all correct.

Regarding SJL's car, we know 100% that SJL's car was there at approx. 5.15pm, so if BW is correct it was heading towards Hammersmith at approx. 2.30pm, and back before 5.15pm. However, possibly not before 4.00pm as the workmen may have noticed it.

What doesn't fit if BW is correct and also WJ is correct in that SJL's car was in Stevenage Road sometime prior to 1.00pm is the fact that the perpetrator came back to Stevenage Road.
He's abducted and secured SJL somewhere near Hammersmith, he then need to get rid of her car, he could have abandoned it just about anywhere, why bring it back to Stevenage Road.

I've assumed that SJL knew her abductor and trusted him, so no one was alarmed (this fits with BW's account of what she saw), SJL agreed to drop him back at a location in Hammersmith and its at this point that his intentions become clear, but its too late she's inside and subdued without raising an alarm.

Now I have two possibles for this and one is JC, IMO he wouldn't have bothered to drive back to Stevenage Road (I don't think he's that clever), it would take a clever and calculated man to plan her abduction and disposal and one that had a very good reason want to keep her quiet.

Back to your question, WJ or BW, maybe both, with BW being the more reliable of the two, however, it would mean SJL never went to SR (which I think we generally agree) and went straight to Stevenage Road to meet the perpetrator.

Now comes the James Galway man and "the right ruck", just suppose he's telling the truth, it's not far off timing wise for the BW's sighting of SJL and the male passenger.

Okay, I've rambled a bit, but this is the scenario that fits the AL "you'll never find her' no one will" comment, he clearly thought DV hadn't got a clue and just lost his temper in frustration.

But, if this scenario is correct, then IMO so is AL.

 

[asyousay]

Sorry if this has already been answered previously but I don't understand how CV would have known where SL had parked her car. Even if the keys had a tag, with the number plate on it, would it really have been that easy to locate it and then how long would CV have needed to do this and then dump it elsewhere? Could he really have left the pub unattended for such an extended period of time, without anybody else being aware?

I have raised this point as well. I assume he was meant to be looking out of the pub window laying in wait

 

[Terryb808]

Sorry if this has already been answered previously but I don't understand how CV would have known where SL had parked her car. Even if the keys had a tag, with the number plate on it, would it really have been that easy to locate it and then how long would CV have needed to do this and then dump it elsewhere? Could he really have left the pub unattended for such an extended period of time, without anybody else being aware?

My guess is that if CV is responsible SJL left her car ver close to the PoW, I say this because she left her purse and money in the drivers door pocket, you don't do this if you're going be away a long time. So she expected to be able to jump out, knock the PoW door, be given her things and be away without (possibly) loosing sight of her car.

 

[Terryb808]

Another loose end question.

6a Wyfold, the scribbled out address at the top of SJL's desk diary looks to be 2 doors away from Chestertons estate agents, was this a Sturgis office back in 1986?

 

[Templeton100]

Sorry if this has already been answered previously but I don't understand how CV would have known where SL had parked her car. Even if the keys had a tag, with the number plate on it, would it really have been that easy to locate it and then how long would CV have needed to do this and then dump it elsewhere? Could he really have left the pub unattended for such an extended period of time, without anybody else being aware?

My guess is that if CV is responsible SJL left her car ver close to the PoW, I say this because she left her purse and money in the drivers door pocket, you don't do this if you're going be away a long time. So she expected to be able to jump out, knock the PoW door, be given her things and be away without (possibly) loosing sight of her car.

How easy was it to park close to the PoW? London was a parking nightmare, even back then and I would assume that even a couple of minutes walk would cover a number of neighbouring streets. It just seems really unlikely and do we even know whether the car keys had any identifying information? I also think that the James Galway report is likely to be a red herring, like quite a number of the other supposed witness statements. It's difficult enough to recall things accurately from the day before, let alone some days later, when presumably this account was given.

 

[asyousay]

My guess is that if CV is responsible SJL left her car ver close to the PoW, I say this because she left her purse and money in the drivers door pocket, you don't do this if you're going be away a long time. So she expected to be able to jump out, knock the PoW door, be given her things and be away without (possibly) loosing sight of her car.

this happened around the time I was born but I have lived in London all my life and like she did at Sturgis she wouldn’t of been able to park outside. It’s a main road so there is no conceivable way he would of known her car unless the car had stickers on it.

 

[TimFisher1965]

SL flat was 200m from the pub so isn’t more likely she parked at her flat because she knew she could park up then she locked her car took the keys? So how could he know where she parked well according to Michael Hutchings her address was NOT in the chequebook or diary but SL also lost some correspondence (police words) so we think postcard which unless blank and used as a bookmark it must have had her address on it. If Michael Hutchings never mentioned seeing this maybe CV pinched it so he knew her address. SL may have told him on the phone or when she turned up she parked at her flat and as he had her keys would locate her car easily. Bit lumpy but just trying to explain how he may have been able to get into her car and knew where it was. In 1986 how easy would it be to park outside the pub in summer? The pub was shut so potentially quite easy? I too doubt WJ sighting I agree her car definitely in Stevenage Rd at 5.15 everything before that is up for grabs. Can we deduce anything from the diary entries above the kipper entry?

 

[asyousay]

She would not of legally been allowed to park outside the pub I’m sure as busy main road and it was right on the corner. She would of had to have found a parking spot elsewhere and walk over. Maybe she would of parked up at home as it was close by if she did indeed go there.

 

[Terryb808]

SL flat was 200m from the pub so isn’t more likely she parked at her flat because she knew she could park up then she locked her car took the keys? So how could he know where she parked well according to Michael Hutchings her address was NOT in the chequebook or diary but SL also lost some correspondence (police words) so we think postcard which unless blank and used as a bookmark it must have had her address on it. If Michael Hutchings never mentioned seeing this maybe CV pinched it so he knew her address. SL may have told him on the phone or when she turned up she parked at her flat and as he had her keys would locate her car easily. Bit lumpy but just trying to explain how he may have been able to get into her car and knew where it was. In 1986 how easy would it be to park outside the pub in summer? The pub was shut so potentially quite easy? I too doubt WJ sighting I agree her car definitely in Stevenage Rd at 5.15 everything before that is up for grabs. Can we deduce anything from the diary entries above the kipper entry?

Apart from the scribbled out entry, which (as others have said) is 6a Wyfold the other look legit.
Just wondered why she scribbled this out, and if it’s correct is 2 doors away from a Chestertons estate agent.
As I asked earlier, did Chesterton buy all the Sturgis offices?
If they did maybe the scribbled out entry can be explained, odd to try and hide it don’t you think.

 

[WestLondoner]

I'm not sure locating SJL's car would have been that hard at all. As has been said, she left her purse in the door pocket, so she clearly wasn't far from the PoW.

You could tell a surprising amount about a Ford just from the key fob. I drove a new Ford in 1985, C-reg rather than SJL's B-reg, followed by another in 1988. These cars when new came with two keys. On higher spec models, the main one was what Ford called a "torch key", which had a push-button torch built in so you could find the door lock in the dark. The spare key was just a basic key, with a logo. Smaller or more basic models came with two of the basic keys. As a 1984 base Fiesta, SJL's car would have had two basic keys. MG's XR3i would have had a torch key and a basic as spare.

So you look at the basic key, you figure this is probably not the spare key of a higher model, as this is a young driver; so you're looking for a basic Ford that this key will open, and that may show signs of being driven by a woman (eg a girly umbrella on the front seat, or something). Starting with the nearest to the pub, you quickly find a Ford that has a woman's straw hat on the back seat. And the key fits. Bingo.

I struggle a bit with SJL popping out on a swift errand but then parking outside her own house. This is going to involve her in walking a quarter of a mile, there and back, so how swift will this be? Second, if the car's that far away, CV or whoever stands no chance of finding it. If anything on her property told him where she lived, the pub manager could have contacted her there. They don't know where she lives, so they would not know where to find her car to move it, and he can't search hundreds of yards in every direction. Third, if she parked outside her own house and somehow you knew this, would you actually move her car anyway? If it were me, I wouldn't be driving her car away at all. I'd leave it right there where it was. It's perfect; she went home on some errand and disappeared, and right away the lodger or one of the boyfriends is in the frame. It would be a big jump for the plod to assume that she parked outside her house to go into the pub 200 yards away. They'd more likely assume she parked outside her house to go into her house.

Incidentally, MG's XR3i probably explains the "BMW" sightings in Shorrolds. Double-parked so you can only see the roofline, you could mistake an XR3i for a 3-series BMW. Here's an XR3i:
https://www.mini2.com/cdn-cgi/image...-down//media/1986-ford-escort-xr3i.16534/full

and here's a contemporary BMW from a similar angle:
https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/BMW-3-Series-Coupe--E30--763_33.jpg

I suggest that if you were looking from a house in Shorrolds over intervening cars at the roof, pillars, door mirrors, door handles, bootlid spoiler and side glass of MG's double-parked XR3i, you could easily mistake it for a 3-series BMW. The "sightings" of "Mr Kipper", a blonde and a BMW are, for my money, sightings of the search party: MG, SF, and MG's XR3i.

 

[asyousay]

If CV had just murdered Suzy he wouldn’t of walked around trying to locate her car which would take up more time and effort. He was running a pub so where is all this mysterious time coming from?

Logically speaking he wouldn’t of know her car so I just think it’s far fetched to then suggest he spent time and effort in after murdering her on a whim he then went out looking for her car. It was a busy area of London she didn’t sign post her car and there would of been loads of cars parked up and around the side streets. He also wasn’t a local he was brought in to run the pub he has no local knowledge of the area.



MOO

 

[WestLondoner]

The CV-did-it hypothesis requires the pub to have been closed and the car left more or less outside. We know it was possible to park more or less outside, as SJL must have done so the previous evening to make the phone call from there.

It's unclear how familiar with the area CV was, or how familiar you'd need to be to look in the road outside or search the adjacent streets. We discussed above the fact that according to MH, he had trained three couples starting in January. But this would require 36 weeks back to back, and this was only week 30 of 1986. It follows that he had probably trained no more two couples so far, over 24 weeks, and CV and KF were one of them, called back to cover for his holiday. If they were the third couple of the year, only in the middle of their training but still competent to take over the pub, you have to wonder what was the point of the rest of their training.

Sooooo, all this would mean they'd lived there for at least 12 weeks previously, plus they may have remained nearby doing similar work. And SJL's car helpfully had a woman's straw hat on the back parcel shelf to identify it as a woman's car.

The abduction scenario makes more sense, inasmuch as there are people who meticulously plot and execute abductions. The PoW scenario requires CV to kill SJL instantly and then hide her in a disastrously incriminating spot. It's not obvious though that DV thinks CV did it. For all we know, he traced Brendan the mysterious cellarman, thinks he did it, and has left him out of the book altogether while anonymising those such as CV that he's left in. I'm not sure that his theory she's under the floor arises from suspicion of CV either; I think it's more that the JC-is-Mr-Kipper theory is obvious nonsense and there's an alternative place she may have gone that has unaccountably never been searched. If she is found under the floor, that's when it's appropriate to think about whether it could possibly have been CV that did this.

 

[asyousay]

What makes you think she drove to make the phone call? She lived close by she would of been on foot. There has never been any suggestion she drove to make a phone call.


We are not American we walk everywhere in the UK. 5-10 mins down the road we wouldn’t take a car.

 

[Terryb808]

Agree with the walking, I’d park at home and walk to the PoW call box on the Sunday evening.
Regarding the cellar man, IMO he doesn’t strike me as being the sort to think about getting rid of SJL’s car. He has less control over the PoW, CV is in charge.

 

[WestLondoner]

What makes you think she drove to make the phone call? She lived close by she would of been on foot. There has never been any suggestion she drove to make a phone call.

On the Sunday evening she went to her parents, then went home and passed the time of day with Roger the lodger. She also had a personal phone call with AL at about 10.15, not made from her parents' home or from her flat.

From her parents' house in East Sheen, she drives along the Upper Richmond Road to get to Putney. She can't turn left off the Upper Richmond Road and right into Disraeli because it's a one-way street, so she carries on to Oxford Road, turns left, and left again into Disraeli. The PoW is on the corner of Upper Richmond and Oxford, so she had to drive literally right past the PoW to get home from her parents' house.

We know she lost her stuff there. Outside the PoW were two call boxes. Ergo, she made her call to AL from there on her way home. The content of the call preoccupied her enough that she forgot to pick up her diary, or didn't notice when she dropped it.

If she went to the PoW the next day, logically she's going to park as close as she can to where she's going. She's not going to park 200 yards away.

 

[WestLondoner]

Regarding the cellar man, IMO he doesn’t strike me as being the sort to think about getting rid of SJL’s car. He has less control over the PoW, CV is in charge.

Do we know anything at all about the cellarman?

 

[asyousay]

On the Sunday evening she went to her parents, then went home and passed the time of day with Roger the lodger. She also had a personal phone call with AL at about 10.15, not made from her parents' home or from her flat.

From her parents' house in East Sheen, she drives along the Upper Richmond Road to get to Putney. She can't turn left off the Upper Richmond Road and right into Disraeli because it's a one-way street, so she carries on to Oxford Road, turns left, and left again into Disraeli. The PoW is on the corner of Upper Richmond and Oxford, so she had to drive literally right past the PoW to get home from her parents' house.

We know she lost her stuff there. Outside the PoW were two call boxes. Ergo, she made her call to AL from there on her way home. The content of the call preoccupied her enough that she forgot to pick up her diary, or didn't notice when she dropped it.

If she went to the PoW the next day, logically she's going to park as close as she can to where she's going. She's not going to park 200 yards away.

From my understanding she went home first and chatted to her lodger and then went out. She didn’t arrive home that late from her parents as far as I’m aware as she had work the next day. I can not check my book as I got it free on Amazon prime books and now I have to pay.


Am I wrong?

 

[TimFisher1965]

From my understanding she went home first and chatted to her lodger and then went out. She didn’t arrive home that late from her parents as far as I’m aware as she had work the next day. I can not check my book as I got it free on Amazon prime books and now I have to pay.


Am I wrong?

Diana Lamplugh said this in an open letter to SL but the lodger NB says he has no recollection of seeing her that night, another red herring. She went windsurfing on the Sunday then to her parents house for a bit then we do not know. AL says he spoke to SL on the phone about 10.15pm but cannot remember who called who. Some of us believe she called him from the phone box at the POW and that's when she lost her stuff. If this is true why was she there at 10.15pm and where was she from leaving her parents until the phone call I think she left her parents around 9pm ish (happy to be corrected on that)