UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[lee sumner]

did you know the POW pub is no longer a pub. i think it is going to be converted into flats, which means now is the time to search the building.

 

[Terryb808]

did you know the POW pub is no longer a pub. i think it is going to be converted into flats, which means now is the time to search the building.

That’s interesting, it went into liquidation during lockdown and was purchased by group who’s directors lived in the SW. After purchase the group’s directors all change and they had London addresses.
They landlord that allowed DV access was retained together with some of his staff.
Interesting development and it would appear it’s a case of now or never?

 

[Konstantin]

I can only speak from my own personal experience in London back in the 80’s and as you say stripper nights were a common occurrence.
Also some women were very into experimenting and had many lovers. I personally didn’t see anything wrong in this, it’s their life and they should live it as they see fit. It was a case of no attachments being formed by either person.
We’re all assuming that SJL kept her lovers in the dark about each other. However, we don’t have anything to show this was the case.
She may have been more open about it with them and very secretive with her own family.
The truth is that DL suppressed anything that might have been viewed as unsavoury and put her own PR on it.
This means we have very little idea what SJL was like within her own circle of friends. We don’t even know for sure that the PoW was a regular drinking spot or not.

Even from reading AS's book, which he self censored because of DL, you can see that SJL had a very active social life, was keen to climb the social ladder, enjoyed partying and yes had several boyfriends on the go. AL was not her steady boyfriend, he was a man of the moment, she was seeing others, her friends said she was planning to dump AL.

So yes it is possible there was friction in her life from jealousy, and so on. AL, with DL's help, gave the impression from the start that he was SJL's only and steady boyfriend, because he was the type of lad DL approved of. I doubt DL knew about SJL's other liaisons, why would she tell her mum anyway? That would have been bizarre...

The police had her diaries and would have know much more than the public on this side of SJL's life but they were hampered in following this direction of inquiry by DL who insisted on pushing the view that SJL was an angel. In trying to protect her beloved daughter's reputation she might have prevented the police solving the crime.

We will never know what was in or not in the diaries. They might not be a comprehensive record of SJL's liaisons anyway. I find it interesting that SJL's flatmate said AL rarely came round to the flat, did SJL want to avoid having him poking through her private stuff?

Most murders are committed by people the victim knew. Of course there are stranger abductions and this might be one of them but this was broad daylight lunchtime so if that was the case then SJL most likely must have gone inside somewhere because carjacking someone in broad daylight on busy roads is a very bad plan.

Personally I tend to the hypothesis that SJL went out that lunchtime to meet someone she knew and the Mr Kipper diary entry was just a ruse to give her an excuse to dash out. Wherever she went it was a short errand that did not require her to take her bag. Searching the pub would at least eliminate it as a crime scene.

One other thing. SJL was chatty. She told SOMEONE in her office about the POW and the diary since the police found out really fast. If some odd gent called the amusing name of Mr Kipper who had no first name called up and wanted to see the new house for sale on the same road as her mate Herring lived who was also possibly nicknamed Kipper, would she not have mentioned that as well? SJL enjoyed jokes like that.

 

[WestLondoner]

That's very interesting if so - either the whole thing gets knocked down flat or they redo it inside. Either way I don't see how the floor remains undisturbed. Unfortunately, brickies who stumble on a 36-years-hidden body while ripping up a floor are going to destroy or contaminate a lot of the forensic traces. That's going to make the police look even worse - they were told to look there, they haven't, and when someone does (by accident) it destroys all the evidence needed to secure a conviction.

If she is not found there, this leaves the question of the adjacent railway embankment.

 

[Terryb808]

Looks to me like the police are afraid to search the PoW because of what they might find.

If they were confident the DV has this all wrong I’d have thought proving this would be something they would want to do.

Regarding disappearances in broad daylight, Leah Croucher disappeared mid morning from a leisure centre.

The circumstantial evidence suggests that it was a well planned abduction by people she knew.

On this basis I’d say SJL could have suffered the same circumstances and eliminating the PoW is essential to move forward.

 

[Terryb808]

That's very interesting if so - either the whole thing gets knocked down flat or they redo it inside. Either way I don't see how the floor remains undisturbed. Unfortunately, brickies who stumble on a 36-years-hidden body while ripping up a floor are going to destroy or contaminate a lot of the forensic traces. That's going to make the police look even worse - they were told to look there, they haven't, and when someone does (by accident) it destroys all the evidence needed to secure a conviction.

If she is not found there, this leaves the question of the adjacent railway embankment.

Exactly, someone needs to give the Met a prod and point this out. It’s better to swollow humble pie now than have the press & TV make them look really inept.

 

[WestLondoner]

... AL was not her steady boyfriend, he was a man of the moment, she was seeing others, her friends said she was planning to dump AL.

...

The police had her diaries and would have know much more than the public on this side of SJL's life but they were hampered in following this direction of inquiry by DL who insisted on pushing the view that SJL was an angel. In trying to protect her beloved daughter's reputation she might have prevented the police solving the crime.

We will never know what was in or not in the diaries. They might not be a comprehensive record of SJL's liaisons anyway. I find it interesting that SJL's flatmate said AL rarely came round to the flat, did SJL want to avoid having him poking through her private stuff?

Most murders are committed by people the victim knew. Of course there are stranger abductions and this might be one of them but this was broad daylight lunchtime so if that was the case then SJL most likely must have gone inside somewhere because carjacking someone in broad daylight on busy roads is a very bad plan.

I agree with much of that. The PoW needs to be eliminated, and if it doesn't provide a crime scene, then the case is insoluble because there is no body, witness or useful sighting of her after she left the office.

Anecdotally, I once read that married people mainly have their illicit affairs with other married people because both of them need to hide it from their spouses. They will co-operate with each other to enable this. A married person having an affair with someone who does not know s/he is married has to conceal their affair from their spouse and vice versa. AS indicates that two of the four men SJL had in play were FWBs, so they I guess would know about each other. The other two - AL and A N Other - probably / presumably didn't. Running two blokes at once who know of and don't care about each other is one thing, but having two on the go who don't know about each other is a different challenge altogether. One thing she would not do is encourage any of these blokes to rock up at her flat unannounced, in case they ran into each other. My guess would be that the diary was crucial to managing all this. I couldn't be bothered, but some people enjoy the intrigue. Maybe SJL was getting to the point with AL where after 6ish months as "a couple", keeping the other three concealed from him was getting too hard and the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Maybe he had started asking why he was so rarely asked over to hers.

The police emerge very poorly from all this. Telling DV he needs witnesses at the PoW is not plain dealing because as they know very well, he can't surface any now and they failed to do so then. It's telling him he has to fix their error, in effect. Telling him he's got to prove there's something salacious in the diary is likewise not plain dealing. They know perfectly whether there is or there isn't, and it does not follow that there needs to be for it to have cost SJL her life. Telling him he's got to provide a motive is disingenuous because sex killers don't have one (that a rational person would recognise).

 

[WestLondoner]

Regarding disappearances in broad daylight, Leah Croucher disappeared mid morning from a leisure centre.

The circumstantial evidence suggests that it was a well planned abduction by people she knew.

This is the likeliest possibility if the PoW were to come up empty. It still presents challenges as a hypothesis though.

- When she left the office, SJL herself didn't know where her car was. A colleague had borrowed it, and she had to ask. This makes it appreciably harder for a stalker to car jack her, because how does he know either?

- He's going to be watching her or watching her car, but he can't very well watch both, nor can he stalk her for ages until she leaves it near the office but in a suitably quiet place.

- If he follows her on an appointment she's going to meet someone, and if he does successfully car jack her he's somehow got to make her disappear before the alarm's raised.

- As she's got a car he's going to need one to shadow her, so where's his car while all the stalking and kidnapping's going on?

I guess that having failed to think about where else she might have gone, the police went for the Mr Kipper theory because it avoids some of the above problems. Of course, they're supposed to investigate what did happen, not what's simplest to investigate.

 

[Crusader21]

WOW! What a blockbuster of a develeopment the PoW redevelopment is!!!

Does DV know!?!

Do the new builders know what may lie beneath?

This means we have very little idea what SJL was like within her own circle of friends.

This area has intriugued me. Yes police will have briefly spoken members of the 'Putney Set' and other aquintances of SL. But coming from the distorted angle of Kipper then JC. Also back then we'd the overbearing shadow / influence of DL ....

Q. In the light of what we know today, and with DL no longer around, can friends of SL come forward with 'new evidence' regarding what may have happened that day?

The friends she travelled with and surfed with that Sunday? Her hairdresser? Partygowers from the Saturday night?

Had Adam been dumped? Where there problematic liaisons in her entangled private life? Did SL frequent the PoW? Would the acting landlord of the PoW have known SL?

IMO there is mileage in a few lines of enquires here that should help us .....

 

[Terryb808]

WOW! What a blockbuster of a develeopment the PoW redevelopment is!!!

Does DV know!?!

Do the new builders know what may lie beneath?


This area has intriugued me. Yes police will have briefly spoken members of the 'Putney Set' and other aquintances of SL. But coming from the distorted angle of Kipper then JC. Also back then we'd the overbearing shadow / influence of DL ....

Q. In the light of what we know today, and with DL no longer around, can friends of SL come forward with 'new evidence' regarding what may have happened that day?

The friends she travelled with and surfed with that Sunday? Her hairdresser? Partygowers from the Saturday night?

Had Adam been dumped? Where there problematic liaisons in her entangled private life? Did SL frequent the PoW? Would the acting landlord of the PoW have known SL?

IMO there is mileage in a few lines of enquires here that should help us .....

IMO the PoW needs looking at as a priority, if its being redeveloped and is closed (maybe) its an ideal time as there’s no customers to upset. As previously pointed out by WestLondoner builders will destroy any evidence that may still be in the void,
Modern forensic’s can provide a lot of evidence that would not have been available back in 1986. Both the PoW & the embankment should be looked at to confirm or eliminate both places.

 

[Terryb808]

This is the likeliest possibility if the PoW were to come up empty. It still presents challenges as a hypothesis though.

- When she left the office, SJL herself didn't know where her car was. A colleague had borrowed it, and she had to ask. This makes it appreciably harder for a stalker to car jack her, because how does he know either?

- He's going to be watching her or watching her car, but he can't very well watch both, nor can he stalk her for ages until she leaves it near the office but in a suitably quiet place.

- If he follows her on an appointment she's going to meet someone, and if he does successfully car jack her he's somehow got to make her disappear before the alarm's raised.

- As she's got a car he's going to need one to shadow her, so where's his car while all the stalking and kidnapping's going on?

I guess that having failed to think about where else she might have gone, the police went for the Mr Kipper theory because it avoids some of the above problems. Of course, they're supposed to investigate what did happen, not what's simplest to investigate.

The stalking scenario is possible and this is the one the police focus on (JC did it). However, there’s the other possibility (if the PoW is negative) and that’s she arranged to meet someone she knew.
If this was the case no one would have noticed anything out of the ordinary, just two people getting into a car. She may have been asked by the perpetrator to give him a lift and was then abducted somewhere far away from the police area of focus.
This is worst case because as WestLondoner (and AL) said “you’ll never find her, nobody will”.
This AL outburst still haunts me, what does he know that motivated him to say this?

 

[Crusader21]

Modern forensic’s can provide a lot of evidence that would not have been available back in 1986. Both the PoW & the embankment should be looked at to confirm or eliminate both places.

To actually think that a body may be situated undisturbed, for almost 36 years is absolutely incredible. Yes, with today's forensic's who knows what story coud unfold.

Like a series in ITV's Unforgotten - Wikipedia !

 

[WestLondoner]

If her body was hidden under the floor, it could be in pretty good condition - injuries etc could still be detectable. In that location there are really only two people who could have put her there. The reservation I have about the underfloor space is that DV was shown it by staff, who told him there was access for pest control people. If the pests controlled include rats, you wonder what state the body is in, and also why the pest control guys never noticed anything.

If hidden on the railway embankment, it will be much less promising, because rain, weather etc, and also because anyone could have hidden her there. If she were to be found there, the police would certainly insist that JC put her there.

 

[Terryb808]

If her body was hidden under the floor, it could be in pretty good condition - injuries etc could still be detectable. In that location there are really only two people who could have put her there. The reservation I have about the underfloor space is that DV was shown it by staff, who told him there was access for pest control people. If the pests controlled include rats, you wonder what state the body is in, and also why the pest control guys never noticed anything.

If hidden on the railway embankment, it will be much less promising, because rain, weather etc, and also because anyone could have hidden her there. If she were to be found there, the police would certainly insist that JC put her there.

if she is on the embankment and plod insists that JC put her there it will demonstrate just how poor they really are.
Regarding the PoW and pest control, rats are inevitable and I recall (but can’t understand after 30 plus years how he remembers it) the pub landlord say he had a blowfly problem when SJL disappeared.
Agree I don’t know how a pest control agent would miss a body in the void.

 

[Konstantin]

This is the likeliest possibility if the PoW were to come up empty. It still presents challenges as a hypothesis though.

- When she left the office, SJL herself didn't know where her car was. A colleague had borrowed it, and she had to ask. This makes it appreciably harder for a stalker to car jack her, because how does he know either?

- He's going to be watching her or watching her car, but he can't very well watch both, nor can he stalk her for ages until she leaves it near the office but in a suitably quiet place.

- If he follows her on an appointment she's going to meet someone, and if he does successfully car jack her he's somehow got to make her disappear before the alarm's raised.

- As she's got a car he's going to need one to shadow her, so where's his car while all the stalking and kidnapping's going on?

I guess that having failed to think about where else she might have gone, the police went for the Mr Kipper theory because it avoids some of the above problems. Of course, they're supposed to investigate what did happen, not what's simplest to investigate.

Well SJL went out to meet someone or do something urgent. It depends what is meant by planned abduction. I don't think it was a sinister plot to get rid of her as there seemed no need. She doesn't seem the type to want to blow up someone's marraige if she was having an affair, for example, but who knows. But if so there were easier and better ways to get SJL alone to do that, than the middle of the day in a very busy area of London when her work would miss her is not really the best time to do that. SJL wasn't upset according to her colleagues, she seemed relaxed and happy, maybe she had a new flame on the go who had some reason to meet her that lunchtime.

But she must have gone inside a house or office.

Getting into someone else's car, then them driving her somewhere, them killing her then going back to move her car by the end of the day (I don't believe the neighbour's testimony that the car was parked there from lunchtime as it wasn't corroborated by others nearby), doesn't make as much sense as her driving somewhere, something happening, and someone moving her car from that scene.

Her going to the pub to get her stuff is far more plausible than her going to meet a fake client.

The police apparently used the diaries to try to track down the men in it to see if they were Mr Kipper so that suggests, if true, that the diary did contain details of men...

AL must have known that SJL was less into him than he was into her, and maybe even knew she was planning to dump him, maybe she even did dump him that weekend, who knows?

I think there are enough indications that SJL had a complex secret love life so I can believe she dashed out that lunchtime to meet someone for something.

 

[Konstantin]

If her body was hidden under the floor, it could be in pretty good condition - injuries etc could still be detectable. In that location there are really only two people who could have put her there. The reservation I have about the underfloor space is that DV was shown it by staff, who told him there was access for pest control people. If the pests controlled include rats, you wonder what state the body is in, and also why the pest control guys never noticed anything.

If hidden on the railway embankment, it will be much less promising, because rain, weather etc, and also because anyone could have hidden her there. If she were to be found there, the police would certainly insist that JC put her there.

Also, sorry to be so grisly, but wouldn't a body attract rats? (Ugh... horrid thought.)

If she died there, i don't see how one person could do it and get away with it without others around them noticing. And that's an awfully big thing to have to keep a secret for so long.

Parts of this story are missing though because if SJL's last known contact with someone was her phone calls with the pub, isn't that kind of crucial? Timings? How she was? What exactly did she say? I would want all that pinned down from the witnesses asap before they forgot these details. How did her "I'll come over later" get translated to "I'll come over at 6pm"? It's a pub? unless it's closed why do you need to make an appointment, you would just pop by whenever it was open and say hi, we talked earlier and I'm here to get my stuff. When she spoke to the pub she KNEW she had an appointment at 6 so she would not have told them 6.

THat all seems kind of crucial to me in establishing her timeline.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

did you know the POW pub is no longer a pub. i think it is going to be converted into flats, which means now is the time to search the building.

I hope this could happen - what actions would need to take place to force the issue?

I can't quote it, apologies, but IIRC it was posted within this thread / forum that there had already been some work to the cellar floors or some such (leading to speculation that a search of the railway banking would be equally / more so needed).

 

[NorthParade]

I’ve only just logged on tonight (been lurking for a while, and like most posters here have read DV’s book and sincerely hope someone in the police listens to him) and seen the post re: the POW’s future.

As far as I can tell from a quick Google and a look on their very active website, the pub has NOT closed down and there are no plans for it to do so.

 

[Terryb808]

I’ve only just logged on tonight (been lurking for a while, and like most posters here have read DV’s book and sincerely hope someone in the police listens to him) and seen the post re: the POW’s future.

As far as I can tell from a quick Google and a look on their very active website, the pub has NOT closed down and there are no plans for it to do so.

I also couldn’t find anything on the internet reference the PoW redevelopment. Having said that it kind of makes sence when you look at what happened after it went into liquidation during lockdown.
It would depend on whether it was to be demolished (unlikely) or just converted into flats.
AS’s book (I understand is more affordable now) is a useful reference and gives a lot of info to use with DV’s book.
Looking at DV’s narrative the police went charging down a blind alley with Mr Kipper, then compounded this by taking the unprecedented step of naming JC as their only suspect.
This leaves them (unless someone finds SJL) with no option but to ignore DV.

 

[Terryb808]

I hope this could happen - what actions would need to take place to force the issue?

I can't quote it, apologies, but IIRC it was posted within this thread / forum that there had already been some work to the cellar floors or some such (leading to speculation that a search of the railway banking would be equally / more so needed).

Yes (can’t remember the date) the floor was lowered back to it’s original level after SJL disappeared (it had been elevated previously).
So the area where the void is would have had more headroom when SJL disappeared, but considerably less now.
The question is:
If builders took up the floor above the void would they really miss a body that had been buried there?
I’m assuming that the owners at the time would want the work completed as quickly as possible, so the builders would not waste any time.
The other point is that it could have been a false floor (likely) put down on top of the original. In this case they’re not going to see anything within the void.
It also means that the burial of a body would be more challenging.