UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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  • #801
Yes this is odd. If it were me I would have wanted to make a report to my boss, i.e. the real landlord, because it was likely that the police would have come back for more questions and the landlord was around when the stuff was found, so if this was suddenly jumped on him by some police officers or worse still by some media reports, I would have expected him to be p***ed off and not hire me again.

I would also want to go into it with him, I would want to know if maybe he saw SJL that night since she was probably in the pub. It's a fascinating story, a local drama that CV was a part of.

Yes the question remains what was SL doing between leaving her parents place and calling AL (if it happened) if the info we have is true she left her parents about 9pm and called AL about 10.15pm probably (IMO) at the payphone at the POW which is when she lost her stuff before walking 200m back to her flat.

So was she in the pub meeting someone? drinking alone to get Dutch courage to call AL? According to NB he told DV he did not see SL on Sunday night so maybe again (IMO) she went somewhere for an hour to see someone then drove home and parked. Not knowing if NB was in she may have thought ok lets walk round to the POW and use the phone there to call AL. Why would she do that? well if it was a break up call (she blanked him all day and came home without him) maybe she did not want anyone to hear her so she went 200M to the nearest public phone. maybe she sat at the table for a few minutes before or after the call and dropped the stuff she may have been a bit upset or maybe it was a heated conversation who knows. She definitely went to her parents and left around 9pm, If AL is telling the truth she called him about 10.15pm, if we accept she lost her stuff on Sunday night which I have always believed then she was at the POW somewhere around 10.15pm to 10.30pm, how else could her stuff end up there if she had not been there? Its the hour between 9.15pm and 10.15pm that needs explaining.

As NB says he did not see her its entirely possible that she went home to the flat and rang AL from there BUT then how did her stuff get the POW for CV to find them about 10.30pm?
 
  • #802
It's worth stating that there was a home phone in SLs flat in 1986. Prob about 95% of homes had landlines then.

Having said that, it would not be uncommon to use a public payphone. Every pub had them, loads on street corners etc.

Also NB is on the record as recalling, that SL did receive numerous unusual calls to the Disreali Rd number. People who rang, didn't speak etc then hang up etc. These calls were probably in line with SLs unorthodox lifestyle ....
 
  • #803
She had a landline, but landlines tended to be in hallways, kitchens and living rooms. They were literally tethered to the wall. The issue with making personal calls was that if the lodger was home, he was going to overhear. SJL probably didn't want him overhearing what was going on in her love life, so if she was going to bin AL and NB was at home (or she thought he might be), then she stops off at the PoW on her way home from her parents' house and calls from the phone box.

Four-timing someone would require skilful management of time and place. While it sounds a bit unlikely that she'd blank AL all weekend then call him to ditch him when she got home, she might. She couldn't risk any of her partners turning up at Disraeli Road and running into any of the others there. So even though she was done with AL, it maybe made sense to ring him up and make absolutely sure he had got the message.
 
  • #804
She had a landline, but landlines tended to be in hallways, kitchens and living rooms. They were literally tethered to the wall. The issue with making personal calls was that if the lodger was home, he was going to overhear. SJL probably didn't want him overhearing what was going on in her love life, so if she was going to bin AL and NB was at home (or she thought he might be), then she stops off at the PoW on her way home from her parents' house and calls from the phone box.

Four-timing someone would require skilful management of time and place. While it sounds a bit unlikely that she'd blank AL all weekend then call him to ditch him when she got home, she might. She couldn't risk any of her partners turning up at Disraeli Road and running into any of the others there. So even though she was done with AL, it maybe made sense to ring him up and make absolutely sure he had got the message.

The whole point of using a payphone was simply privacy. Lets speculate (what else can we do in much of this case?) for some reason SL leaves her parents house and goes home obviously by car. She is intent on dumping AL and needs to speak to him, she is heading a party on Tuesday and does not want him around so to ensure this she must end it. She blanked him the whole weekend including returning to London without him even though he had just come back from holiday so the last bit was to finish the job. Stepping aside for a moment as to what she may have done in the lost hour between 9.15pm and 10.15pm lets put ourselves in SL shoes.

She heads back and needs to speak to him on the phone but does not know if NB is in so to ensure the deed is done and not overhead she uses a payphone, she may have pulled up to the POW but why bother? park at home then walk 200M would be easier right?

Takes her bag out the car does the deed at around 10.15pm which may have taken 10-15 minutes? drops her stuff goes home. CV finds her stuff minutes later.

The other alternative that matches NB account "could be" that she did indeed go home and simply phone from her landline because when she got there NB was out so she was alone and could make the call in private. That of course raises another issue, how did her stuff get left at the POW 200M away if she had not been there? Her making the call from home is possible but not in my mind probable.

Of course to join up the dots we need to make yet more assumptions.

What happens if the call never happened at all? we only have AL word for it? if you take the call out of the equation SL may simply have driven home parked up and walked back to the POW had a couple of drinks and dropped her stuff as she left returned home and never saw NB at all?

DV asked the right question when he said to AL did you ring her or did she ring you but I would have followed it up with, do you remember if SL used a phone box (in those days coins being entered and beeps etc were distinctive on public boxes) if he said no then it "may" have been a landline, also if it was a phone box she MUST have rung him because he would not have known where she was.

AL MUST have rung from a landline IF he rang her and also known where she was, if she rang him he must have been at home leaving the possibilities she used a payphone at the POW or her landline.

At this point what may join up the dots would be to ask to speak to the person who drove her to the party on Saturday and drove her back from windsurfing, she was a close friend she would know exactly what happened with the relationship and that may yet unlock what happened on Sunday night, SL may have told her what she was going to do that eve?

Everyone says where is the lost hour? where was she?
It might be much simpler than we all believe, the question is which bits are nailed on facts?

Leaves her parents about 9pm ish yes

Phone call to AL 10.15pm probably

loses stuff at POW around 10.30pm probably (how else did they get there?)

Does not see NB almost certain

If we assume she did not see NB there might be the simplest solution which removes the "lost hour" entirely

She leaves her parents house and drives home and parks at her flat and goes in, NB is not there.
Phones AL at 10.15pm from her landline.
Walks round to pub has a drink last orders would be 10.30pm (post dumping AL?) drops her stuff walks home goes to bed does not see NB
CV finds stuff about 10.30-10.40pm

As AL has changed his accounts I'm apprehensive to accept on face value the phone call happened it simply cannot be proved now it's just another piece of the puzzle, if it is bogus it has stuffed up the timeline for the last 36 years.

Assuming he told the police that the phone call happened it would have taken some nerve to lie about it as they could have checked I think he did speak to her but perhaps did not reveal she dumped him as this would make him look very bad. Once he had appeared in public with the lamplughs maybe he felt boxed in and could not change anything? When it was clear she was not coming back perhaps he had no choice but to stick to the narrative? maybe he was irritated with DV because he though DV may be trying to insinuate he was involved and DV touched a nerve and may be trying to get him to fess up? who knows
 
  • #805
or:

Leaves her parents about 9.15

Phone call to AL 9.30 to 9.45

Loses stuff at POW around 9.45

CV finds it around 10.15, 10.30 - first person to notice it
 
  • #806
or:

Leaves her parents about 9.15

Phone call to AL 9.30 to 9.45

Loses stuff at POW around 9.45

CV finds it around 10.15, 10.30 - first person to notice it

Is it on record what time SL spoke to AL? If so where? I’m struggling to believe the stuff was not found for more than a few minutes. Chequebooks in 1986 we’re like cash. I know it’s Sunday night but I reckon it would have been nicked by most people
 
  • #807
Chequebooks were like cash if you had the cheque guarantee card, which meant the bank would guarantee to pay cheques up to £50, later £100. If you didn't, then you couldn't really use a stolen cheque book for much. Nobody would accept an unguaranteed cheque until it cleared and if it were reported stolen it wouldn't.

On the wider point though, as all these times are a bit woolly, it does seem plausible that SJL went from parents home via the PoW, where she made her call. Nobody's recollection needs to be out by much more than half an hour or so.
 
  • #808
I know SL was young and vibrant, but ....

At the end of a busy week - working Sat morning, party Sat night, driving down to coast on Sunday, windsurfing Sun afternoon, driving back to London to visit Mum early evening.

I imagined she'd have crashed out then. I'd be of the opinion SL only popped in to the PoW to make that phone call, nothing else.

She was back at her desk 8am Monday morning, her last day.

With another busy working week plus party Tuesday night with (newish) boyfriend, Mum's 50th Wed's evening ....
 
  • #809
It seems very likely to me that Cannan is responsible, and he may well admit as much once his mother dies.
 
  • #810
I think this is the case yes.

When they went back to the pub to interview CV a year later when they were doing a review of the case (as per AS) they were surprised that he had gone back up north. I don't think that whoever interviewed him the first time around took much notice of his statement, whatever it was and in whatever capacity it was given. I think that they were probably rushed, and just went round to grab the stuff and left. So if CV did tell them about the phone calls (which I do think had an innocent explanation and CV just got the name wrong of who ever called him, in the year between him recalling this again to the cops who interviewed him, and him having a call that at the time probably meant nothing to him) they probably just dismissed them as yeah that would have been someone looking for her plus us calling you, no need to report it.



Yes that was noticeable and in fact makes sense because if you think your colleague attended a place and might have come to harm in it, however innocently, banging on the door ain't going to really cut it, you want to get inside and look in the loo, the kitchen, everywhere. SHe might be unconscious. I'd be breaking the door down to get in myself.

How did he look inside with no key? The house is a multi storey house he could not have seen upstairs through the window or letterbox. Either he went inside, with a key, or he didn't in which case he had not searched that place at all and she could be lying hurt or dead inside. We know she wasn't but he didn't. Unless he believed the HR that SJL had come out with a male and HR later that day (did MG go back and talk to him again, or did he get his number and call up again? How did MG know this) changed his story to say she'd been bundled into a car.

THe initial part of the investigation was done very sloppily.
It seems very likely to me that Cannan is responsible, and he may well admit as much once his mother dies.
I was of the opinion JC’s mother has already died (read it somewhere, but can’t recall where). Plus if he really expects to get parole then it’s mouth firmly shut with regard to SJL.
Most don’t this it was JC, I accept he is a possibility, but his methods don’t fit with SJL’s disappearance.
It’s been said within this thread that SJL’s disappearance was either a very well planned job, or the perpetrator had an incredible amount of luck not to leave any clues.
This seems a very logical conclusion to me, and depending on your views both JC & CV could fit into the incredible luck category.
 
  • #811
I know SL was young and vibrant, but ....

At the end of a busy week - working Sat morning, party Sat night, driving down to coast on Sunday, windsurfing Sun afternoon, driving back to London to visit Mum early evening.

I imagined she'd have crashed out then. I'd be of the opinion SL only popped in to the PoW to make that phone call, nothing else.

She was back at her desk 8am Monday morning, her last day.

With another busy working week plus party Tuesday night with (newish) boyfriend, Mum's 50th Wed's evening ....

Well while we have no idea if she made a phone call from there or not -- she must have been there because her stuff was found there. I mean, it got there somehow and the most likely explanation is it tipped out of her bag when the bag was somewhere it could have fallen over and she didn't notice stuff spilling out, i.e. most likely it was under the bench on the picnic tables where her stuff was found (if she had made a phone call from the call box honestly I struggle to see why she would have put her bag near the bench-- it would have been nicked in 60 seconds, she would take it into the call box with her surely.

We know SJL didn't go everywhere with her bag as she left it at Sturgis when she went out for her last lunchtime so if she'd have gone home after her parents I can't see she'd take her bag out to go to a call box. And if her flat mate was home so she went out to call, then he would have noticed her going in and out again.

I think it's possible, given this, that she popped into the POW for a drink with someone, sat outside and her bag tipped over and she was in conversation so didn't notice. If she wanted to break up with AL I don't get the impression she'd have called him and dumped him over the phone after a weekend of not really taking much notice of him. He was just a casual boyfriend, it wasn't serious and he didn't even spend time at her flat much according to her flat mate. They had a casual agreement to see each other later in London if she was back in time or if he was, according to him. She wasn't so they didn't (or he wasn't so they didn't). If there was a phone call I reckon it would be him chasing her and calling her at home. If there was one.

No one seems to have questioned how her stuff ended up at the pub including the police who seem to have accepted it ended up there on Friday night even though CV likely wasn't even there then. If she met someone at the pub that could be very significant.
 
  • #812
Well while we have no idea if she made a phone call from there or not -- she must have been there because her stuff was found there. I mean, it got there somehow and the most likely explanation is it tipped out of her bag when the bag was somewhere it could have fallen over and she didn't notice stuff spilling out, i.e. most likely it was under the bench on the picnic tables where her stuff was found (if she had made a phone call from the call box honestly I struggle to see why she would have put her bag near the bench-- it would have been nicked in 60 seconds, she would take it into the call box with her surely.

We know SJL didn't go everywhere with her bag as she left it at Sturgis when she went out for her last lunchtime so if she'd have gone home after her parents I can't see she'd take her bag out to go to a call box. And if her flat mate was home so she went out to call, then he would have noticed her going in and out again.

I think it's possible, given this, that she popped into the POW for a drink with someone, sat outside and her bag tipped over and she was in conversation so didn't notice. If she wanted to break up with AL I don't get the impression she'd have called him and dumped him over the phone after a weekend of not really taking much notice of him. He was just a casual boyfriend, it wasn't serious and he didn't even spend time at her flat much according to her flat mate. They had a casual agreement to see each other later in London if she was back in time or if he was, according to him. She wasn't so they didn't (or he wasn't so they didn't). If there was a phone call I reckon it would be him chasing her and calling her at home. If there was one.

No one seems to have questioned how her stuff ended up at the pub including the police who seem to have accepted it ended up there on Friday night even though CV likely wasn't even there then. If she met someone at the pub that could be very significant.

I have always thought the call and lost possessions had to be linked. It’s a good point though why not take the bag into the box? Of course what may have happened is she made the call then sat down at the bench and put her bag down, perhaps it was a emotional call who knows. For me I have always believed she used the phone box and dropped her stuff at the same time. The question quite rightly raised is did she meet someone there before, during or after the call?
 
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  • #813
or:

Leaves her parents about 9.15

Phone call to AL 9.30 to 9.45

Loses stuff at POW around 9.45

CV finds it around 10.15, 10.30 - first person to notice it

According to DV he asked AL about the call. AL said the call was about 10.15pm and could not remember who called who. Sounds more likely that SL used the phone box to call AL about 10.15 then assuming it was a 5-10 minute call left. I don’t think it’s a great leap to assume that SL dropped her stuff exactly where CV found it. If it was me I may have sat on the bench briefly to get some change from my bag and dropped the stuff then OR she may have sat down after the call a bit upset or angry and dropped them then. It makes perfect sense for her to her to have been there and the only logical reason would be she met someone and/or she wanted to speak to AL with nobody overhearing. If we assume as a fact (I do) that the stuff was lost there on Sunday why was she there? Meeting someone or using the phone are the only likely reasons. BUT we only have AL word for the phone call if his account is true and I believe it is then we still need to account for 9.15 to 10.15
 
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  • #814
The problem with the Met's JC theory is there literally not one scrap of evidence for it. Not a thing. They can't even point to the Mr Kipper sketch. The witness source of that also made and retracted a claim that he'd seen her being bundled into a car, and he later went on to identify a short, fat man in his mid-40s as definitely the man he'd seen outside 37SR, who was tall, slim and about 30.

If we look at the 1986 Crimewatch reconstruction of 28/7/86 we can see three interesting people in her office. One is her boss, MG, alongside the Mr Kipper sketch.
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The Mr Kipper witness saw this person outside with a blonde woman, whom he did not ID as SJL. In SJL's office there are, according to the reconstruction, two female colleagues who played themselves. Here they are:

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Either of these is at least as blonde as SJL was, and therefore I conjecture that the sightings outside 37SR are of her boss and one of these blonde-ish female workmates who had come looking for her. This would account completely for - and exclude - the HR "sighting".

What I would really, really like to know is what CV looked like in 1986. A cab driver recalled picking up a bearded man as a fare near where SJL's car was abandoned.
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...was that in fact CV?
 
  • #815
The problem with the Met's JC theory is there literally not one scrap of evidence for it. Not a thing. They can't even point to the Mr Kipper sketch. The witness source of that also made and retracted a claim that he'd seen her being bundled into a car, and he later went on to identify a short, fat man in his mid-40s as definitely the man he'd seen outside 37SR, who was tall, slim and about 30.

If we look at the 1986 Crimewatch reconstruction of 28/7/86 we can see three interesting people in her office. One is her boss, MG, alongside the Mr Kipper sketch.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

The Mr Kipper witness saw this person outside with a blonde woman, whom he did not ID as SJL. In SJL's office there are, according to the reconstruction, two female colleagues who played themselves. Here they are:

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Either of these is at least as blonde as SJL was, and therefore I conjecture that the sightings outside 37SR are of her boss and one of these blonde-ish female workmates who had come looking for her. This would account completely for - and exclude - the HR "sighting".

What I would really, really like to know is what CV looked like in 1986. A cab driver recalled picking up a bearded man as a fare near where SJL's car was abandoned.
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...was that in fact CV?

I agree that MG was taken as the kipper photo this makes perfect sense, I would have asked MG who went with him when he went to Shorrolds Road (twice apparently) because if he says SF or KR went with him this could explain completely the HR sighting. As for what CV looked like there must be a picture somewhere? might be hard to locate but possible.

For the record MG and NH JC (not cannan) are on Linkedin I have spoken to JC and got a reply to a question I asked maybe he would answer that question?
 
  • #816
As for what CV looked like there must be a picture somewhere? might be hard to locate but possible.

Would an id pic have been taken for a landlord's pass at the PoW?
Would he (and his wife) appear in the brewery trade mag introducing them as pub trainees?
 
  • #817
The problem with the Met's JC theory is there literally not one scrap of evidence for it. Not a thing. They can't even point to the Mr Kipper sketch. The witness source of that also made and retracted a claim that he'd seen her being bundled into a car, and he later went on to identify a short, fat man in his mid-40s as definitely the man he'd seen outside 37SR, who was tall, slim and about 30.

If we look at the 1986 Crimewatch reconstruction of 28/7/86 we can see three interesting people in her office. One is her boss, MG, alongside the Mr Kipper sketch.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

The Mr Kipper witness saw this person outside with a blonde woman, whom he did not ID as SJL. In SJL's office there are, according to the reconstruction, two female colleagues who played themselves. Here they are:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Either of these is at least as blonde as SJL was, and therefore I conjecture that the sightings outside 37SR are of her boss and one of these blonde-ish female workmates who had come looking for her. This would account completely for - and exclude - the HR "sighting".

What I would really, really like to know is what CV looked like in 1986. A cab driver recalled picking up a bearded man as a fare near where SJL's car was abandoned.
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...was that in fact CV?
Great post that should be archived!

Over the years, many have mentioned the likness of MG and Mr Kipper. Even hinting that MG may well have been Kipper!

One other thing, as MG was in the Crocodile Tears with the big boss that lunchtime, was a liquid lunch involved ie a few alcoholic cocktails?

And might this have had an impact on MGs recollections, on the times he gave and more importantly his recollections around that key?
 
  • #818
...was that in fact CV?
As was said in the reconstruction - despite many appeals the James Galway man never came forward, why?

Surely an innocent individual would have.

Also the fact that this guy was picked up early afternoon, around the corner from where a disappeared woman's car was abandoned speaks volumes. If he drove SLs fiesta there alone, from a bit of a distance away, he'd have to access some some of transport to get back.

Being dropped off by the taxi too at the vicinity of a few fast food outlets and beside a tube station, would have been ideal too .....
 
  • #819
Over the years, many have mentioned the likness of MG and Mr Kipper. Even hinting that MG may well have been Kipper!

I didn't realise until I re-read the AS book recently that this exact suggestion was made repeatedly to the police at the time, by numerous callers to the incident room after the Crimewatch "reconstruction" (being largely fiction, it was no such thing). The police regarded all these as crank calls from nutters. MG looked like the Mr Kipper sketch, Mr Kipper was the abductor, so clearly all these stupid callers were saying MG was the abductor, which was always impossible.

It does not seem to have occurred to the police that these callers were suggesting nothing of the sort. They were saying that the person HR had described looked like SJL's boss. So maybe the person HR saw outside 37SR and described was her boss looking for her, not some unidentified abductor.

The trouble was, the police had started by assuming that there was an abduction from 37SR. That's inarguable holy writ. A man was seen there; he must be Mr Kipper; Mr Kipper did it; and as they know MG did not do it, MG can't be the man in that sketch. QED. All those callers were wrong.

The more sensible approach is to establish who went to Shorrolds. There's no evidence SJL did, as she did not take the keys. We know MG and a female colleague did go there, in search of her. A couple were duly seen outside 37SR by HR. These are highly likely to have been MG and said colleague, who fit the description. Nobody else was seen, so there is no need to postulate any Mr Kipper.

And it's when you get to there that you realise why the police ignored these warnings. Mr Kipper did it and that's final. So no line of reasoning that suggests there never was a Mr Kipper was going to be listened to or entertained.
 
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  • #820
Would an id pic have been taken for a landlord's pass at the PoW?
Would he (and his wife) appear in the brewery trade mag introducing them as pub trainees?
Picture IDs were rare in the 1980s, but the brewery trade mag is a good shout. I doubt there'd have been any photos of a non-event like the landlord going on holiday, but assuming CV/KH stayed in the business, there could be other pieces in later years in which he could have been featured / photographed.

I wonder what the brewery trade read in the 1980s?
 
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