UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[TimFisher1965]

We're back to the original idea that SL turning right out of Sturgis suggests heading towards Putney

If JC is correct (and I think he is 100%) she could have driven out the opposite end of Radipole Road and made her way to Putney, going down Radipole out onto the Fulham Road and turning right would mean her distinctive white fiesta could be seen by Sturgis staff and possible Guerdon and Perry so why not drive out the end of Radipole Road and turn left at Bishops Road then make her way to Putney. If she went to the POW as we believe the whole point was to not be seen right?

 

[Cluesleuth]

I have been analysing this aspect very closely and some things have become abundantly clear.

The staff generally reported back to police and to others like AS what they thought had happened and made in my view many assumptions. For example SL must have taken the keys because she had a viewing, look at MG and NH reaction when interviewed by DV the possibility that she did not have the keys did not even occur to them.

I now know that the office junior borrowed negotiators cars ad hoc and used the negotiators keys then returned them to the negotiator when they had finished their task there were NO duplicate keys. JC borrowed SL's car and when he got back he gave her keys back. The argument must have happened when he was out between 9.45am and 10.15am because he heard about it later but did not witness it.

Cars were parked in the streets nearby it was not in the same street it could have been one of several which is why SL asked JC "where did you park my car" because she did not know and there was not a designated spot or road. Misquoting where this street was to the police maybe 2-3 days later (or longer) was a genuine mistake nobody lied about this for sinister reasons (IMO).

Copies of details for ALL the properties were in the office and extra copies were made when these become low so they were not printed by the office junior on request (unless they had run out and not been noticed) all SL had to do was go get a copy and nobody knows if she did this or not all I know for sure is JC did not print a copy for SL on that morning because I asked him.

As i said before I think AS is an excellent writer BUT he got his info from police files and from staff who said (IMO) what they thought must have happened not what actually did happen. People I think need to stop asking questions based on what they "assumed" happened and check these facts. SL did NOT collect her car from Whittingstall Road as widely reported but from from Radipole Road. The person who left it there told me this and he is 100% certain, he even told me where the road was in relation to the office and he was 100% spot on. What does this mean? maybe nothing BUT she could have gone in any direction from there and not be seen by anyone.

Also to me it removes another piece of likelihood about convicted JC because if he carjacked her how would he know where her car was unless he was waiting outside and followed her to her car? Even if he did stalk her (I don't believe for the record he had ANYTHING to do with it) he would not know which road her car was in because it could of been in one of 3 or 4 roads around the office.

DV has said this already in an interview, we need to strip back everything we think we know and start again a lot of facts in this case are WRONG. I now know a much more accurate timeline of the office from 8.45am to 12.40pm by not assuming anything in the record is true.

One last thing

The diary page

Top entry 6D wyfold crossed out it was a top floor flat several streets away not sure this means anything

The 142 wardo ave entry according to someone who was there means as I suspected that this was a note to bike round a contract via courier

Mr Kipper 12.45 o/s was in my view 100% written in very close to her leaving because she had to get out of the office.
Nobody in the office saw this prior to her leaving as the reason given was "nobody had a reason to check her diary until she didn't come back"

Jonna Wright entry 6pm was a legit viewing

Firstly thank you TM1965 for sharing. If I may can I would like to ask you a few questions.
1. I would have thought in the first instance police interviewing the office staff would ask them to relay exactly what they personally witnessed in the office that morning ie timelines conversations peoples movements in and out of the office. If an office staff member was in the office then their statement had to be correct as it could be checked against the other people in the office so the only situation so it would be fair to say that this part of the statements given were not assumptions of what could have happened.
After obtaining the statements the police would move on to a line of questioning asking them of what might they thought may have happened when SJL had left the office which is standard police interview technique and obviously the office staff could only give their thoughts on her movements as they never saw her after she went out the door of the office. Would you agree this is the case?
2. Was JC in the office when KP arrived, did the office staff tell the police that KP had visited the office that morning? If not what was the reason for this.
3. What time did MG leave the office? did he leave with KP or after.
4. JC said he couldnt be 100% sure about where SJL's car was parked. I noted that SF left for a viewing just after 12.00 whose car did she take for the viewing?
5. At anytime of the day were NH & SF out of the office at the same time.
6. In the recent tv documentary JC spoke saying SJL had asked him to get the keys to Shorrolds road, did he get the keys for her?
7. Finally the keys. Was there a key book were keys were signed out and signed in.
And staying with the keys someone at some stage would have inspected the key board certainly the police would ask to see it and its location. When was it confirmed that the keys were or were not in the office.

again thank you for sharing we are all seeking the same end here.. to find SJL and bring her home

 

[Cluesleuth]

and this is the problem with this case, I have a direct quote from someone who was there and told me what happened Which source is more reliable? a quote from someone who was there or a quote taken from a book written down at best second hand? JC did NOT print off a copy for SL on the 28th of July he is not sure if she took one copy from the drawer its possible so SF may be correct that she took one but if we believe she did not take the keys why bother? JC says they had multiple copies in the office for each property so they were at hand they were not printed out to order.

Its possible she took another set of details to a different property this again is common practice you would always try to introduce a potential buyer to other properties which were comparable.

Alternatively it could have been a set of deatils that she had a personal interest in that she wanted to show someone.

 

[TimFisher1965]

Firstly thank you TM1965 for sharing. If I may can I would like to ask you a few questions.
1. I would have thought in the first instance police interviewing the office staff would ask them to relay exactly what they personally witnessed in the office that morning ie timelines conversations peoples movements in and out of the office. If an office staff member was in the office then their statement had to be correct as it could be checked against the other people in the office so the only situation so it would be fair to say that this part of the statements given were not assumptions of what could have happened.
After obtaining the statements the police would move on to a line of questioning asking them of what might they thought may have happened when SJL had left the office which is standard police interview technique and obviously the office staff could only give their thoughts on her movements as they never saw her after she went out the door of the office. Would you agree this is the case?
2. Was JC in the office when KP arrived, did the office staff tell the police that KP had visited the office that morning? If not what was the reason for this.
3. What time did MG leave the office? did he leave with KP or after.
4. JC said he couldnt be 100% sure about where SJL's car was parked. I noted that SF left for a viewing just after 12.00 whose car did she take for the viewing?
5. At anytime of the day were NH & SF out of the office at the same time.
6. In the recent tv documentary JC spoke saying SJL had asked him to get the keys to Shorrolds road, did he get the keys for her?
7. Finally the keys. Was there a key book were keys were signed out and signed in.
And staying with the keys someone at some stage would have inspected the key board certainly the police would ask to see it and its location. When was it confirmed that the keys were or were not in the office.

again thank you for sharing we are all seeking the same end here.. to find SJL and bring her home

I think they did not understand the significance any anything they saw because they assumed she went to Shorrolds road and "presumed" the rest. The police followed the Kipper/shorrolds narrative right from the off everyone seems to just assumed it was like that. The interviews with the sturgis staff in DV's excellent book seem to indicate they were very unaware of what really happened at all.

JC confirmed that KP and MG had lunch that is 100% certain

He cannot remember if they went to lunch before SL left I'm pretty sure they did

KF did not use SL's car because SL asked JC where he left after his trip out so she did not use SL car inbetween

NH and SF were in a relationship so all the evidence points to them having lunch together but leaving the office at different times and both being away from the office when SL left

I asked JC about the keys he cannot remember what happened about the keys he remembers talking to her about it. When I explained the puzzle he thinks its plausible she left without them to have a longer break he first thought that a duplicate set had been obtained but I told him this was not possible so he thinks its inevitable she did not take them and never went there.

There was a key hook but nobody seems to know who got the keys and how or where they found them. We know MG went to shorrolds between 4.30 and 5pm so he must have found them in the office and believed it was a second set? when questioned about it by DV he seems completely baffled as to how they had a set of keys? I think years later he worked it out but by then what did it matter? Nobody seems to know at the time what happened?

If you look at the evidence the sturgis staff and most of the witnesses seem to contradict themselves repeatedly in books, documentaries etc. AL says things stolen on Friday night at the POW then tells DV they never went there and it never happened.

I have corroboration that SL lost her stuff on Sunday night and she was stressed about it

 

[Terryb808]

I think they did not understand the significance any anything they saw because they assumed she went to Shorrolds road and "presumed" the rest. The police followed the Kipper/shorrolds narrative right from the off everyone seems to just assumed it was like that. The interviews with the sturgis staff in DV's excellent book seem to indicate they were very unaware of what really happened at all.

JC confirmed that KP and MG had lunch that is 100% certain

He cannot remember if they went to lunch before SL left I'm pretty sure they did

KF did not use SL's car because SL asked JC where he left after his trip out so she did not use SL car inbetween

NH and SF were in a relationship so all the evidence points to them having lunch together but leaving the office at different times and both being away from the office when SL left

I asked JC about the keys he cannot remember what happened about the keys he remembers talking to her about it. When I explained the puzzle he thinks its plausible she left without them to have a longer break he first thought that a duplicate set had been obtained but I told him this was not possible so he thinks its inevitable she did not take them and never went there.

There was a key hook but nobody seems to know who got the keys and how or where they found them. We know MG went to shorrolds between 4.30 and 5pm so he must have found them in the office and believed it was a second set? when questioned about it by DV he seems completely baffled as to how they had a set of keys? I think years later he worked it out but by then what did it matter? Nobody seems to know at the time what happened?

If you look at the evidence the sturgis staff and most of the witnesses seem to contradict themselves repeatedly in books, documentaries etc. AL says things stolen on Friday night at the POW then tells DV they never went there and it never happened.

I have corroboration that SL lost her stuff on Sunday night and she was stressed about it

What’s odd is that SJL arrived for work on Monday and was in an upbeat mood. If she lost her things on Sunday night and was stressed about it, how can you be upbeat.
I’m guessing the upbeat part came after the bank informed her where her things were.
What was she stressed about, presumably not the chequebook or postcard, so it has to be the diary.
Just maybe she was stressed about loosing all the contact Details. No online backup then, big thing to loose everything.
So if this is the case and she went to the PoW first, where is CV’s motive?
Is it just money?

 

[asyousay]

and this is the problem with this case, I have a direct quote from someone who was there and told me what happened Which source is more reliable? a quote from someone who was there or a quote taken from a book written down at best second hand? JC did NOT print off a copy for SL on the 28th of July he is not sure if she took one copy from the drawer its possible so SF may be correct that she took one but if we believe she did not take the keys why bother? JC says they had multiple copies in the office for each property so they were at hand they were not printed out to order.

35 years after the fact though- I am going to trust a memory from the day over 35 years later.


MOO

 

[TimFisher1965]

35 years after the fact though- I am going to trust a memory from the day over 35 years later.


MOO

So you don't want to believe the person who borrowed SL car and parked it up? the only person who could possible know that info for certain?

 

[Pinkizzy]

What’s odd is that SJL arrived for work on Monday and was in an upbeat mood. If she lost her things on Sunday night and was stressed about it, how can you be upbeat.
I’m guessing the upbeat part came after the bank informed her where her things were.
What was she stressed about, presumably not the chequebook or postcard, so it has to be the diary.
Just maybe she was stressed about loosing all the contact Details. No online backup then, big thing to loose everything.
So if this is the case and she went to the PoW first, where is CV’s motive?
Is it just money?

CV didnt need a motive, it was 5 mins of madness. I guess SL laughed at his northern accent or something.

 

[TimFisher1965]

What’s odd is that SJL arrived for work on Monday and was in an upbeat mood. If she lost her things on Sunday night and was stressed about it, how can you be upbeat.
I’m guessing the upbeat part came after the bank informed her where her things were.
What was she stressed about, presumably not the chequebook or postcard, so it has to be the diary.
Just maybe she was stressed about loosing all the contact Details. No online backup then, big thing to loose everything.
So if this is the case and she went to the PoW first, where is CV’s motive?
Is it just money?

She lost her stuff the night before and the first person she saw was JC who says she was stressed about it, upbeat suggests she then realised where the stuff was and was going to get it all back. We don't know when she said whatever made her upbeat its possible the break at 12pm was when she gave the vibe of being upbeat. Who knows what happened when she got to the POW? Plenty of murders or accidents happen off the cuff she may have gone there as happy as can be and met an untimely end for no good reason whatsoever we simply don't know.

 

[asyousay]

So you don't want to believe the person who borrowed SL car and parked it up? the only person who could possible know that info for certain?

The Police said she left from a completely different road so why has that story changed?


Memory fades with time and it’s been over 3 decades.

 

[Cluesleuth]

I think they did not understand the significance any anything they saw because they assumed she went to Shorrolds road and "presumed" the rest. The police followed the Kipper/shorrolds narrative right from the off everyone seems to just assumed it was like that. The interviews with the sturgis staff in DV's excellent book seem to indicate they were very unaware of what really happened at all.

JC confirmed that KP and MG had lunch that is 100% certain

He cannot remember if they went to lunch before SL left I'm pretty sure they did

KF did not use SL's car because SL asked JC where he left after his trip out so she did not use SL car inbetween

NH and SF were in a relationship so all the evidence points to them having lunch together but leaving the office at different times and both being away from the office when SL left

I asked JC about the keys he cannot remember what happened about the keys he remembers talking to her about it. When I explained the puzzle he thinks its plausible she left without them to have a longer break he first thought that a duplicate set had been obtained but I told him this was not possible so he thinks its inevitable she did not take them and never went there.

There was a key hook but nobody seems to know who got the keys and how or where they found them. We know MG went to shorrolds between 4.30 and 5pm so he must have found them in the office and believed it was a second set? when questioned about it by DV he seems completely baffled as to how they had a set of keys? I think years later he worked it out but by then what did it matter? Nobody seems to know at the time what happened?

If you look at the evidence the sturgis staff and most of the witnesses seem to contradict themselves repeatedly in books, documentaries etc. AL says things stolen on Friday night at the POW then tells DV they never went there and it never happened.

I have corroboration that SL lost her stuff on Sunday night and she was stressed about it

Ok.. Just to confirm re SF I didnt specifically ask if SF took SJL's car to the viewing she did just after 12.00.. Does JC know whose car she took?

re MG to Shorrolds rd we know he went there in the tv docu he said to check if she locked herself in if this was the case and she had locked herself in she would have had to had a key to let herself in in the first place.
(perhaps others here more familiar with locks could offer some help re this and how this could happen if she entered with a key)
The tv docu shows him looking through the windows but I cannot find confirmation that as some suggest he searched the property by entering it. Later that day one of the lead detectives gave instructions to enter Shorrolds road.

With respect I cannot accept any assumptions about the key its one of the most important details in this case. Police say they are missing I have to accept this until I have clear evidence to prove they were still in the office. If there were still in the office wouldnt the police have been more focused on the people in the office?

What I do find it very strange that a system that was set up by Sturgis a military style management who would have demanded thing done by the book wouldnt have operated a key book. I have some experience of agency in the 80's and this was standard practice.

re KP and MG lunch was there anyone else lunching with them and if yes who?

So know we know NH and SH were at some stage out of the office together. Did SJL ask either of them to cover any of her viewings.

 

[TimFisher1965]

CV didnt need a motive, it was 5 mins of madness. I guess SL laughed at his northern accent or something.

yes we do not know, IF he didn't know her we can only guess as to what happened. It doesn't take sherlock Holmes to surmise that as she went from being stressed about her stuff to being upbeat then these things were important to her. If CV is telling the truth and her stuff was in the cellar maybe she had a panic attack or something. I am pretty sure she was heading there at lunchtime to get them back. Everything I have researched and discovered backs this up but unless the POW is searched or someone owns up we can only guess.

 

[asyousay]

So basically everybody in the office was a liar and continually lied to LE even when there was a reconstruction and Crime watch appeals with all the wrong information?!


Also let’s not forget 3 different witnesses saw a man and a woman at Shorrolds Road and the man and woman never came forward and it was a vacant property.

 

[Cluesleuth]

She lost her stuff the night before and the first person she saw was JC who says she was stressed about it, upbeat suggests she then realised where the stuff was and was going to get it all back. We don't know when she said whatever made her upbeat its possible the *advertiser censored* break at 12pm was when she gave the vibe of being upbeat. Who knows what happened when she got to the POW? Plenty of murders or accidents happen off the cuff she may have gone there as happy as can be and met an untimely end for no good reason whatsoever we simply don't know.

In the As book it says that she had rung the bank to report the lost chq book and put a stop on the chqs and card on phoning them she learnt they had been found so Im clear on that.
Did SJL give JC or any of the other office staff any indication where 'she' thought she had lost them?

 

[TimFisher1965]

Ok.. Just to confirm re SF I didnt specifically ask if SF took SJL's car to the viewing she did just after 12.00.. Does JC know whose car she took?

re MG to Shorrolds rd we know he went there in the tv docu he said to check if she locked herself in if this was the case and she had locked herself in she would have had to had a key to let herself in in the first place.
(perhaps others here more familiar with locks could offer some help re this and how this could happen if she entered with a key)
The tv docu shows him looking through the windows but I cannot find confirmation that as some suggest he searched the property by entering it. Later that day one of the lead detectives gave instructions to enter Shorrolds road.

With respect I cannot accept any assumptions about the key its one of the most important details in this case. Police say they are missing I have to accept this until I have clear evidence to prove they were still in the office. If there were still in the office wouldnt the police have been more focused on the people in the office?

What I do find it very strange that a system that was set up by Sturgis a military style management who would have demanded thing done by the book wouldnt have operated a key book. I have some experience of agency in the 80's and this was standard practice.

re KP and MG lunch was there anyone else lunching with them and if yes who?

The top managers at Sturgis said to DV that sets of keys were ALWAYS on one fob, if this is true then MG had the only set of keys and so SL could not have taken them. I am amazed that nobody at Sturgis seems to have at the time thought something was very odd about this.

The importance of the keys is that IF she didn't take the keys then she never intended to go there at all. This is important because if that's true then what was she doing? I believe her sole intention that lunchtime was to go to the POW ASAP to get her stuff back. The bogus diary entry, leaving of her bag and appearing to go to a viewing at Shorrolds make this to me her cover story. I believe she thought she would be back before anyone knew what she was up to and she never made it back.

I don't know about what car SF took I can ask, SL asked JC where he left her car so nobody used her car after JC brought it back unless he forgot about this but if that's true why did she ask him for the keys, he confirmed to me that he gave her keys back and that the last thing she said to him was "where did you leave my car?" and then she left

 

[TimFisher1965]

In the As book it says that she had rung the bank to report the lost chq book and put a stop on the chqs and card on phoning them she learnt they had been found so Im clear on that.
Did SJL give JC or any of the other office staff any indication where 'she' thought she had lost them?

I know how she found out where they were because JC told me

 

[Cluesleuth]

yes we do not know, IF he didn't know her we can only guess as to what happened. It doesn't take sherlock Holmes to surmise that as she went from being stressed about her stuff to being upbeat then these things were important to her. If CV is telling the truth and her stuff was in the cellar maybe she had a panic attack or something. I am pretty sure she was heading there at lunchtime to get them back. Everything I have researched and discovered backs this up but unless the POW is searched or someone owns up we can only guess.

I understand the logic TM but we have to get there or its stalemate again.

Its the middle of the day she was a local girl, she very sociable she went by car why didnt someone see her or her car?

 

[Cluesleuth]

The top managers at Sturgis said to DV that sets of keys were ALWAYS on one fob, if this is true then MG had the only set of keys and so SL could not have taken them. I am amazed that nobody at Sturgis seems to have at the time thought something was very odd about this.

The importance of the keys is that IF she didn't take the keys then she never intended to go there at all. This is important because if that's true then what was she doing? I believe her sole intention that lunchtime was to go to the POW ASAP to get her stuff back. The bogus diary entry, leaving of her bag and appearing to go to a viewing at Shorrolds make this to me her cover story. I believe she thought she would be back before anyone knew what she was up to and she never made it back.

I don't know about what car SF took I can ask, SL asked JC where he left her car so nobody used her car after JC brought it back unless he forgot about this but if that's true why did she ask him for the keys, he confirmed to me that he gave her keys back and that the last thing she said to him was "where did you leave my car?" and then she left

But MG never admitted to having the keys.

Yes I know the conversation with JC re the car please dont confuse that with what Im asking. I would like to know whose car SF took to the viewing she did.

 

[Cluesleuth]

I know how she found out where they were because JC told me

Im wondering if you misread me I asked where she thought she had lost them not were they found.

 

[TimFisher1965]

But MG never admitted to having the keys.

Yes I know the conversation with JC re the car please dont confuse that with what Im asking. I would like to know whose car SF took to the viewing she did.

I understand the question I have not asked that yet